Reader Responses to My Rise to Christianity
and Transcendence From It and
Debunking
Every Argument of Christian Fundamentalists and Evangelists
(Sorted in ascending order, newest at the top)
hey man just congratulating you on your website. the one that refutes all the christian arguments.
at the moment im an ex christian, the amount of stuff i know about the
bible and all the theological problems makes it impossible for me to go
back to christianity.
you brought up so many of the hiccups i had with christianity, and it
was cool to see that someone else was also brave enough to detail these
problems.
im currently going to a deconversion phase right now, and im pretty
sure that my christian friends are noticing my change in attitude.
thanks again for the site, it was an awesome read
-------------------------------------------------------
Hey Winston,
Its Calvin.
So I have been reading your emails on and off. I find some of them really interesting.
In
fact when I first visited your website last year and read about your
depression and OCD related to christianity, it struck a chord in me.
I was also once a VERY committed christian. And I have actually been down that road that you described in your website.
On top of that, I not only had OCD but I first had bipolar disorder that is religiously inspired.
As
I was going through these 2 problems in my life, it feels like I have
been cut off from the rest of humanity. It feels like hell.
But
I managed to handle this two destructive personality disorder without
any medication or treatment from any doctor or psychiatrists.
It took me years.
Its
not that I didn't wanted to. Its just that when I was going through it
I didn't know that it can be treated medically and psychiatically.
I only found out that I had these 2 disorders after I have ( through trial and error ) begin to 'heal '
( they are not really a diseases ) myself of it.
When my mind was back to normal I got to know about bipolar disorder when I was watching an episode of Oprah Winfrey.
I got to know that I had OCD when I read about your story in your website. Thanks.
I
know exactly why you said you found a new sense of clarity of mind and
an ability to articulate when you have gotten yourself out of OCD.
I also did gain a considerable measure of the abovesaid abilities as I was recovering from those 2 disorders.
I
believe people like you and me ( and others with similar experiences )
have a certain depth of knowledge of the human mind and emotions after
having plumming its depths ( in despair ) and soaring its heights ( in
mania, if you had bipolar ) , thanks to the nature of the disorder that
afflicted us :)
Because we have been through such experiences, we are in a good position to help others who are in the same journey.
I believe there are many other christians ( and non christians ) who are going through the same things.
Somehow these forms of disorder are common in christians. Maybe I am wrong.
Because
I have been through these experiences and have overcame it I am now a
stronger person. On top of that I have also discovered my life purpose
or goal.
I am going to become a personal development motivator and trainer.
I
believe my story and the lessons learnt would be very useful to others.
Perhaps it might stir some away from committing suicide.
So
I would like to ask you if you know of any institution in the US ( or
otherwise ) or person that would offer some kind of internship/training
that would lead to some form of legitimacy ( certification ?) which
would put me in a position to become a motivator/trainer myself?
I have surfed the net for some answers and there are MYRIADS.
Since
you are an American, I thought you might have some good ideas or
recommendations as you are familiar with things in the US.
Secondly,
you have made quite a good case about how wonderful life is in the
Philipines that I am considering of visiting for the first time. ;)
If
I were to visit the philipines for a few weeks to 6 months , is there
any job opening or opportunies to make money ( for living and holiday
expenses ) for me there; or perhaps even for training.
I
am a law graduate from the UK with some experiences in offcice
administration & sales, but who is intending to become a
motivator/trainer as I have said before.
My
plan is to get some training and experience in the US ( and be
established ) and later to travel back to Asia ( and wherever the
demand is ) to motivate/train and share my life story.
I know my life story is going to bless a lot of people.
ps: I have not describe in detail my experiences of those 2 disorders I had and how I actually got out of it
because it would be too long for an email.
You can share this email with others or post it in your forum if you want to.
Yours sincerely,
Calvin
----------------------------------------------------------
Hi Winston,
I read your story today, found it by accident......
I'm afraid the brand of Christianity you began with as a youth was well
corrupted. For example: What will happen at death to a person if they
never heard the gospel? God will judge them based on the law he has
written in their hearts. If they heard the gospel and reject the Holy
Spirit's working within them - then they have sinned, rejecting Christ.
Well reading your story, our heavenly Father showed me that you were
inhabited by spirits upon your visit to Taiwan. Your attempt to convert
your relatives angered Satan's demons (spirits). In fact they still
inhabit you to this day. When you have children - they will pass from
you to them. May I suggest you forget about the church and all of the
false Christian teachings and begin a new?
Did you know there exists two Bibles? One, the 1611/1769 King James is
the same as was first translated to English - not one word added or
removed. The other came into the world in 1880 and was known as the
Revised Version. However, it has absolutely no relation to the first. It
is the devil's counterfeit and the most popular bible today going under
numerous names NIV, NKJ, etc.
Anyway my friend please take a moment to read this book:
Book: War on the Saints
http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_63/2262000/2262863/1/print/2262863.pdf
This is no more a book for the general reader than is either a medical
work on cancer, or a text book on mental disorders. It should never be
read for curiosity nor from mere academic interest. "To the natural man;
who has but a mental grasp of spiritual things, the language used may be
meaningless, but Christians of all stages of growth in the spiritual
life, who simply take what they can understand and leave the remainder
for those who are in deeper need-and until they themselves are in deeper
need-will obtain much light on matters within their horizon."
Well I'm not even sure this email will make it to you since the fact
your email address was displayed means you probably get a lot of
spam......
Take care,
John
Kaohsiung Lutheran Mission
------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
I really love your website, but have a couple points to make regarding your "Creationism" section.
Quote by you: "I will say that I do not
argue against the evidence of intelligent design in the universe. I am
one of those with the middle position that Evolution did happen, but
that a cosmic life force had something to do with it. After all, no Atheist
or scientific materialist has ever been able to answer the question of
how something could come from nothing, or why anything even exists at
all."
Please the following response to this.
We
humans intelligently design and create, therefore we assume that we
also must have been designed and created by an intelligent designer. However,
symptoms such as diseases, viruses, bacteria, aging, physical ailments,
mental disorders, and common birth defects don’t point to any type of
intelligent design. Natural catastrophes that
occur on a regular basis that destroy life indiscriminately do not
point to any type of intelligent design. You can look into the cosmos and find unintelligent design aspects to it such as black holes, supernovas, white dwarfs, red giants, meteors, etc. The intelligent design argument is really feeble as it assumes a flawless creation.<
SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> Believing
that there is this Intelligent Designer actually diminishes the
amazement of the universe by suggesting that god just did it, rather
than by way of a complicated, intricate process that science is
continually learning and explaining. Believing
that this "cosmic force" just did it doesn’t explain any of the
complexity we see before us; it only transfers the burden of one
unknown to an even larger unknown.
Attributing
an "intelligent designer" or "cosmic force" as the source every time
something can’t be explained from a natural perspective is illogical. That’s
the same mentality that was used several thousand years ago to justify
the existence of multiple gods when our understanding of the universe
and nature were limited. The flaw in this logic
is that you must then ask yourself who created this intelligent
designer then, and so on, infinitely regressing. If
you can conveniently just assume that this intelligent designer has
always existed and doesn’t need a creator, then you can just as easily
assume that the formation of the universe didn’t need a creator either. Science
may or may not ever be able to unravel all the mysteries in the
universe or adequately explain the singular event in time that caused
this chain reaction to occur, but we should not compromise our
intelligence and default to an intelligent designer as being
responsible. You
are still required to prove this intelligent designer's existence, not
just insert him into the gaps of what cannot be understood at this
moment in time, and call that proof.
In addition, the following 2-concepts often get confused with each other. Abiogenesis
is the study of the origin of first life, and Evolution describes the
gradual changes in species from simple beginnings over time. Science never states that life just came from nothing, but rather that the formation of the first life originated from non-living matter. And Natural Selection, which is the driving mechanism behind Evolution, is the exact
opposite of chance. Chance only plays a role in the form of gene mutations, but from there, the possessors of those gene mutations that are suited to the environment will have greater reproductive success, and
the possessors of those inferior gene variations that are not favorable
to the environment will gradually be eliminated until eventual
extinction. So we are not here by chance; we
have successfully evolved to this point through Natural Selection,
which is a cumulative process of slow gradual degrees from simple
beginnings.
Thanks for your time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Winston, I read your story and wanted to make this
comment. It's unfortunate what you went through and there are many who still
fall under the same "Christian" misconceptions you were subjected to. Many
things you are correct about in your considerations regarding the faith and
beliefs you were instructed in and you are also right in that no loving God
would condemn a soul to hell for never having been aware of Christ or His
teachings. You are also right in that most Christian denominations follow the
same basic (very basic) principles but not because of the theory you concluded.
Its actually much simpler than that. If you research the history and founding of
the various independent denominations they all came from one source and it was
the individual founders who put their own twists on their own "faiths". That's
why they are so similar in basics. Its called the "sifted like wheat" effect if
you understand. God is a loving God and the best way to know Him is to go to the
original source. He is much as you hoped He was and not as you thought . If you
ever decide to know Him as He is, you can contact me at www.seekingdivinemercy.org
and I will be glad to assist you. By the way, your family would not necessarily
go to hell for not knowing or being of Christian faith either. Again, I have
been Roman Catholic, left it, and researched Christianity all only to learn
it was I that was wrong. Don't feel sorry for my beliefs, know I am sympathetic
to what you experienced and will pray for you.
SDM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Winston,
I recently came across your site about "debunking"
Fundamentalist Christianity. Well, I don't really want to waste my time
going over things that are ambiguous to you, so I'll go over just one
thing and hope you are willing to update the site and reflect that this
portion needs to be corrected. Yes, I know it's one small thing, and I
know it's probably something you don't particularly care about, but
rather than go over everything and all your exhaustive arguments, I
decided to focus only on one that is minute that most people would
probably see as irrelevant. I can attest to people having deconversions
to Christianity, I was close to it myself, but I didn't go the same
route as you did, and I didn't find your story anything to applaud
about, especially when most of the issues you brought up stem from
trying to be "politically correct," and tended to be emotionally
charged rather than logical.
I just want to correct one of your arguments that would take less
than five minutes to explain, and probably wouldn't even impact or
debunk anything else you put up. Please be honorable when considering
what I or in my case, what God has assigned me to write down.
In Argument # 5 about Rabbits do not chew the Cud.
I feel you misunderstood the meaning of that passage, based on the translation in Hebrew.
Here is the problem. The modern English word for "cud" is as follows:
1.the portion of food that a ruminant returns from the first stomach to the mouth to chew a second time.
This is the KJV's translation of the word gerah'alah
Gerah is the word that is commonly understood in English as "cud."
Since a Rabbit is not a ruminant, the argument is that it cannot
possibly chew the cud, as it does not regurgitate it's food and then
eat it again only to mix it with more saliva. That is the argument you
are presenting to your readers, and it is also the argument you use to
say "How could the Bible be inerrant and not know this."
Here's the issue, the word for "cud" in modern English is
restrictive versus the Hebrew word for cud. That same word in Hebrew
simply means "to raise up what has been swallowed." It does not have
the same restrictions as the English word for "cud," in that it does
not imply constant "rumination" but rather also "refection." Refection
is when the rabbit pass what they eat first through their body and then
eat it again.
Now you're probably thinking... okay, so the Hebrew word means "to
raise up." So what? Passing through the rabbit and to go out the other
end, that's not the same thing.
Our other key word here is 'alah,
and it is found in some grammatical form on literally every page of the
OT. This is because it is a word that encompasses many concepts other
than "bring up." It also can mean ascend up, carry up, cast up, fetch
up, get up, recover, restore, take up, and much more. It is a catch-all
verb form describing the moving of something to another place. (The
literal rendering here is, "maketh the gerah to 'alah.")
Now in the verses in question, 'alah
is used as a participle. Let's look at the other verses where it is
used this way (NIV only implies some of these phrases; where in
parentheses, the phrase is in the original, sometimes in the KJV):
Josh. 24:17 It was the Lord our God himself who brought us and our fathers up out of Egypt....
1 Sam. 7:10 While Samuel was sacrificing (offering) the burnt offering...
Nahum 3:3 Charging cavalry, flashing swords (lifted), and glittering spears!
Isaiah 8:7 ...therefore the Lord is about to bring against them the mighty floodwaters of the River...
2 Chron. 24:14 When they had finished, they brought the rest of the money...
Ps. 135:7 He makes clouds rise (up) from the ends of the earth...
2 Sam. 6:15 ...while he and the entire house of Israel brought the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets. (Similar quote, 1 Chr. 15:28)
So:
the Hebrew word is question is NOT specific to the process of
regurgitation; it is a phrase of general movement. And related to the
specific issue at hand, the rabbit is an animal that does "maketh" the
previously digested material to "come" out of the body (though in a
different way than a ruminant does) and does thereafter does chew
"predigested material"! The mistake is in our applying of the
scientific terms of rumination to something that does not require it.
If
you want the source where this information is presented (where I found
this information) here is ONE website, which I copied and pasted the
last part from. I found references in many other places, but this one
suffices for the argument.
http://www.tektonics.org/af/cudchewers.html
I know you're probably thinking.... "tektonics, bah it's a 'biased' source."
But
read it anyway, it corrects one argument, and well... it would make
your debunking more accurate to not include that portion of it.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I have read some of your statements of position regarding Christianity and
I quickly found with all due respect, you are either not familiar with Christian
doctrine or was very poorly instructed in it as the points as you have written
them that you claimed to "debunk" are incorrect, at least as far as what the
doctrines and principles of my faith follow.
When it comes to faith, humanity is frail. In our
earthly way, we are beings of a physical nature and relate to that which is of a
physical nature. To relate to something that is without physical substance or is
of a super-natural existence is difficult to comprehend in our finite minds. We
require proof or evidence. Absent of either of those, all we have left is
faith.
In relationships, whether faith in our friend, our
husband, wife, doctor, preacher, priest, or our Lord, without faith, there
cannot be a true, confident relationship. Yet no test of faith can exist where
all the answers are known. There, knowledge and discernment replace true faith.
In any relationship, regardless of whether it is with another person or our
Lord, faith must exist in whomever the object of our love may be in order for
the relationship to survive because unlike our Heavenly Father, we cannot know
what is to come in the future to know where a relationship will lead us. So it
is that our faith is weak and frail yet even more so with our Lord who we cannot
easily relate to due to our physical nature and His super-natural being. We fall
easily, giving up on what we cannot encounter with our limited
senses.
Some think it would be so much easier to have faith in our Lord if we
could see Him even once. But the reality is, to see Him just once could never be
enough. Our desire to see Him and be with Him would then become
incomprehensible. Anyone who has ever experienced love knows the strongest
desire is to be with the person you love and separation tormenting. So why can’t we be with Him now you may
question? To skip this physical lifetime, which would be necessary in order to
be with our Lord, would cancel out all that we would experience, most
importantly, all that influences us in the exercise of our God given gift of
free will. To be able to choose freely to know Him and love Him as He desires or
proceed on our own path just as we choose to enter or avoid any other
relationship. Faith to trust, love and devote oneself in that ultimate
relationship with Our Lord. The closer we come to knowing Him the stronger our
faith, trust, Love and devotion can grow.
SDM
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, my name is Donny, i love your website and am trying to build refutation to the bible being supported by science.
i
have found this interesting geocities cite that claims this is true and
would like your take on many of the aspects concerning this.
http://www.geocities.com/worldview_3/science.html
thx
--------------------------------------------
Dear Winston,
I have just read your life story and
I too have gone through the same thing,albeit not as severe. I have had a
burning desire to serve Christianity to the point where I have considered
ordination. I then picked up a book by Neale Donald Walsch and it made me think
about my faith to the point where it does not add up anymore. Your views sum it
all up. God is interpreted by all the different religons differently but they
are all just different perspectives on the same God.
An excellent article which I hope
more people will read.
Yours Sincerely,
Nigel Townend
P.S The title of the book is Conversations with God.
Subject: Real Buddha and Real Christ
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:18:03 -0400
Hello Winston,
I sent you a couple emails long time ago about your webpage on
debunking
christian arguments.
I really enjoyed reading it and thank you for putting that up. Last
time I
wrote to you I was pretty hostile toward Christianity and was heavily
influenced by writers like Dawkins.
Since then I have softened up a bit in my atheism and have been reading
alot
of Alan Watts which I feel has introduced me to a better understanding
of
Buddhism instead of the scratching the surface that western world does
to
present it.
I understand what you mean by Jesus was not a christian and Buddha was
not a
Buddhist.
I think Jesus's Gospel or good news never really got out. If we
believe he
was an historical figure then most likely had an experience like
Guatama as
a Cosmic understanding of some sort that he could only describe through
the
religious language that was available to him at that time. Same with
Buddha
who was influenced by Hinduism. If Jesus was alive in India no one
would of
put him to death. Instead people would of clapped their hands and
cheered.
Everyone is the son of God or Daughter of God. We are all of the same
substance of the Universe.
Only in the Hewbrew laws and traditions was it bad to say that. There
is
only one cosmic king and we all need to pay homage. Hindu seems to be
more
of a cosmic democracy or communism.
Well Just wanted to write and tell you I liked your page and my
thoughts.
Matthew
Sent: Thu, 17 May 2007 2:27 pm
Subject: Thank you
If I’ve never said so before, I
want you to know how much I appreciate your taking time to articulate your
thinking about Christianity and to post it on the web. You’ve created a truly valuable
resource! If you continue writing in the
future, you might think about posting at ex-christian.net or
losingmyreligion.com.
I only wish there were more
opportunities for public dialogue on this issue.
I, too, am a former
fundamentalist and have been writing and doing public speaking in my area (Western Washington).
But I wish there was a broader forum for voices like ours.
All the best,
Valerie
Your article was incredible.
I'm
a 50ish Asian guy who went through a similar
transformation.
It took decades until I realized my late teen
episode
was never coming back.
You
tapped on something: Going through life with a
faulty
belief system that the logical mind has to endure
and
repress the 1000 year old ignorance. It has to
drive
a teen nuts, especially as his brain is growing so
fast,
the sneakers don't fit...pow!
The
straw that broke the camel's back from turning away
from
all religion (save an Einsteinian God) was this absurd
war
in Iraq.
I
think it was like a born again Christian's feeling of
unshackling
all the burdens of a false existence.
I'm
a much happier person, determined to be a better
contributer
to society without a motive to go to
some
kind of heaven and get a reward.
What's
so bad about not not having an individual ,
personal
, post earth- life 'soul?'
If
all of us have a chance going through one existence,
"I'm
good with it!"
Thanks
for a compelling reading! I'm saving this site!!!
Hi Winston
I wanted to congratulate you on your
wonderful and complete work. It has cemented in my mind many of the things that
I myself neither had the time to research or the capability to describe. Reading
this has just coincided with me experiencing hypnotic regression where so many
of my questions about why I am the way I am, were answered. I am on a voyage of
discovery and have really benefited from your research.
I had a nervous breakdown about a
year ago and since then was just unable to connect in any meaningful way to
Christianity. After repeatedly trying to seek god with all my heart I just
couldn’t. It was during research into evidence for life after death from the
Christian Evidence Society that I came into contact with the various theories
around. However the intention of the book was lost because it helped me find
mountains of research into the various topics of reincarnation and past lives.
In and of themselves, significant evidence against the claims of the bible.
The funny thing in all this though
is that just prior to my breakdown, I was training to become a minister in the
church of England. It was actually because of my extensive knowledge of the old
and new testaments that I could see all of the contradictions and problems that
were presented by yourself and others. If it wasn’t for that knowledge I may
have just shrugged it off.
Anyway I am just babbling now.
All the best
Neil
My Rise to Christianity and Transcendence from It
WOTEGRO
is a technology-promotion organization. Our goal is to accelerate the rate of
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we pursue to combat them. We have developed a mechanism that we hope will allow
for the rapid decrease in the level of religiousness of the world.
See
our website for more information.
http://www.geocities.com/wotegro/
We
found your website very educational and thought-provoking, and have thus set a
link to it. We would appreciate if you could add our organization’ URL to your
list of links.
There
are numerous articles on the subject of religion and science in our site. You
are welcome to reproduce them on your website, citing the author. All articles
were written by Dr. Charles Sabillon.
There
is also a thrilling novel that touches the subjects of religion and science,
which can be downloaded for free.
We
wish you all the best in your endeavors in this year.
Thank
you.
The
Board of Directors of Wotegro
http://www.geocities.com/wotegro/
Thank you for putting your website
together
Debunking Every Argument of
Christian Fundamentalists and
Evangelists
I feel I’m getting very close to
your conclusion statement. You putting all this info In one place is very
helpful. Thank you very much.
Greg
Hello:
Congratulations on an
excellent site. Your information on evangelical fundamentalist
Christianity is the BEST site on the internet. It spells everything
out. Try to get the search engines to bring it up near the top of
searches.
The pictures of the
people in Russia
who cheated and scammed you do not show. They are blank with those little
red x's in the upper left hand corner. Can you fix that?
I spent three years
living in Palo Alto, CA during the late sixties when I was in the
commodity futures brokerage business. We had an office in the office
building at ****************..
I spent many happy
weekends in SF riding the cable cars. What a great time it was to be
young in SF back in the sixties.
Thank you
Winston,
I skimmed over your site debunking Christianity,
and it looks fairly good.
Have you seen mine? www.debunkingchristianity.com
And have you seen my book? http://www.amazon.com/Why-Rejected-Christianity-Apologist-Explains/dp/1412076811/sr=8-1/qid=1161359173/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1026021-1420747?
We're doing the same things.
I wish you well.
Sincerely,
John W. Loftus
Hi
Winston,
I
am agnostic ex-hindu, who lives in fundamentalist Christian area of New Zealand.
Although I never became a christian, I was challenged by some of the christians
here to look into the claims of christianity. You can find my testimony here
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Ionian/index.php?showtopic=730
After
engaging in Online Biblical polemics for the last 2 year I have obviously come
to the conclusion that Christianity, especially protestant Christainity, cannot
be from a divine creator.
I
found your article to be very similar to my way of thinking. In fact if I were
to prepare a internet blog/website, it would be very much like your article
I
really like your article namely because of following main reasons
1)Like
you I seek to understand as why fundamentalist believe what they believe,
especially the biblical aspect of it. When I was reading the your section on
Christian World View, I felt like I was reading my own mind
2)I noticed you also refered to many website, to which I commonly refer to
others such as Dick Stephen Brainwashing Article
3)You also talk about the various denomination differences and actually talk
about the biblical reasons behind it. Sometimes which I also commonly do when
Christian apologetist try to shoot down their "brother in faith" like
the catholics or JW.
4)You discussed about the difference in theology between the two books and the
Jewish side of the Messiah debate, something which many atheist do not discuss.
However
I would like to present a small critique, which I hope you find helpful. You
may ignore it and forgive me for doing so, but as a fellow freethinker I
hope you wouldn't mind
1)There
are also three types of Christs in the Gospels. According to Mark, Christ was a
man. According to Matthew and Luke, he was a demigod, while John insists that
he was God himself.
Well with regards to Gospel of John, there is no verse in there which explicity
mentioned that Jesus was God. I am NOT denying the verses which strongly imply
the divinity such as opening chapter. However I would like to point out there
are other verses in the Gospel of John where Jesus openly admits that he had a
God and he doesn't anything against the wishes of his father. If end of Gospel
of John states the book was written so that we believe that Jesus was the Messiah
not God
2)You
also did not mention that there not a single verse in the Christian Bible which
explicitly says God is trinity, save for one vague one, or supports the Nicean
Creed ie God is composed of Father, Son, HS and they are co-equal in power,
status and knowledge.
Even the great Saint Paul
who claims to have received his Gospel from Jesus himself NEVER refers to him
as God. In fact in all his writing he treats Jesus and God as two seperate
entity and repeatedly calls him Man 1 Timothy 2:5. He also explicitly mentions
that Jesus submits to the authority of God. So much so for the co-equalness
theory.
The Old Testament offcourse refutes the concept of Trinity completely
3)I
am glad you mentioned Hell is nowhere mentioned in the Old Testament, and that
we have no reason to believe the writers of the Hebrew Bible ever did. You did
mention about verse Dan 12, however even then this is once again very vague,
since it does not mention anything about Eternal Torment or Torture.
Check out this topic Jewish Forum
http://p069.ezboard.com/fmessiahtruthfrm7.showMessage?topicID=1104.topic
4)You
did talk about Satan as such, but once again I wish you elaborated that in the
Old Testament there is no such concept of the Devil ie a fallen angel who
opposes God. Satan is nothing more than a obedient angel working in God's
court. Satan never exceeds God's authority.
5)I
wish you had talked about how both Genealogies itself show that Jesus cannot be
Jewish messiah. See my post about regarding this here
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Ionian/index.php?showtopic=968
I would like to share with some web links which I believe has seem extremely
good information and form the bulk of my reference material when I debate with
Christians
http://www.geocities.com/b_r_a_d_99/
http://www.faithstrengthened.org/FS_TOC.html
http://www.messiahtruth.com/wanted.html
Also
I debate in the following forum under the name of "SkepticOfBible".
If you debate online, then I would be quite honored if you could join any of
these forums
http://ex-christian.net
http://ionianspirit.net/
http://p069.ezboard.com/fmessiahtruthfrm1
http://jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/index.php
(This forum is closing, but it has some excellent material)
Sir,
As
a newly deconverted individual I find your "book" on geocities
possibly
one of the most complete resources for debunking. I was a
believer
for about 20 years. A friend of mine
began throwing little pot
shots
at my faith (Southern Baptist). He is an
agnostic and one of the
only
people I can talk to about this issue. I
live in Central West
Virginia. I am in the "buckle" of the Bible
Belt. Everyone here
accepts
the Bible without ever reading it. My
father is an expert on
the
King James Version of the bible. He has
the ability to rationalize
through
any other religion or denomination. He
is unable to see the
"craziness"
of what he believes. He can't be
reasoned with at all on
the
subject. He dismisses proven scientific
fact (rabbits chewing cud)
as
wrong, because the bible says it. Is
that not the most ignorant
thing
you have ever heard? I go through a
great deal of debating with
christians
that believe what they think without knowing why. It is so
difficult
to tear down someones belief system that has no foundation.
It
is easy to dispute what they say, but changing their minds, well that
is
like parting the Red Sea. Thank you for your contribution to free
thought.
Hello Mr Wu
You and I have never met, but I
am very grateful for your wonderful article "Debunking the arguments of
evangelical christians". I am an ex-christian and a spiritual seeker, and
a friend recommended your article to me to help me heal what remaining ties I
had to my former religion and thus allowing me to move beyond it.
Though your article is very
long, when I started reading it, I could not stop! I was nodding with every
paragraph and every section, seeing answers to questions I had been looking
for. Many of your comments and observations were dead on, and were also quite
funny and thought provoking to boot as well. What's the sign of a dangerous
book? A book that keeps you up until 3:00 in the morning. Likewise, what's the
sign of a very well done article? An article that you cannot stop reading, even
to go to the bathroom.
You sir, are to be commended
for helping those who have left christianity to heal their lives as they seek
to release and leave behind harmful doctrine. In my two years of spiritual
seeking after leaving christianity, your article is hands down one of the best
about christianity that I have ever read (tied only with this page http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/god17.htm).
I work at a public library and thus have access to hundreds of books on
religion and spirituality, yet very, very few are as helpful as the one article
that you have written. There is even a book titled "Leaving the fold"
that is for former fundamentalists leaving their religion, yet your article is
arguably better and more useful then the entire book.
You have helped me so much in
my search for spiritual truth. Your article helped me in so many ways that to
list them out would take much longer then either of us most likely have patience
for. I still believe in God, just not bible-god, and your article helps me to
see that bible-god is a myth created by man while God, whomever or whatever he
or she is, is infinitely greater and loving then the false god seen in so many
bible atrocities.
I thank you, and wish you all
the best in life.
Ian
P.S. If you are interested, you
may read some of my writtings and thoughts on this site (http://neardeath.ipbhost.com/). I go
by the username IanD. In addition, I have written an online book about
spirituality that you can read here if you are interested(http://ianspiritualwritting.tripod.com/id10.html).
Mr Wu,
I just
finished reading your website. I picked up some excellent new arguments
that I have never seen before. I unfortunately live in fundamentalist land
(about 50 miles from Lynchburg,Va
- Jerry Falwell) and this fundamentalist crap is like a virus. I actually have
been approched by total strangers (one even knocked on my door one saturday but
he didn't want to hang around for long - and I was just getting started!) and
asked "If die today will you go to heaven or hell" (I told the fellow
who knocked on my door hell then he knew where I was going and left. I don't
think he wanted me to confuse the young man who was with him in
training). It's pretty bad around here - you have to watch what you say as
you might offend bosses and/or others who will talk to bosses so I restrict my
discussions to trusted friends.
I
personally consider all churches corrupt as organizations but many of the
individuals as fine and well-meaning people but terribly mislead and
manipulated.
I'm not an
atheist but probably a deist. I associated with Jehovah's Witnesses for
about 2 years but never committed - I think too much and question too much and
of course the reason I got temporarily involved was the death of my brother -
there's that tragedy
that makes
you vunerable!
I must
say that I did learn alot about the bible during this time. The witnesses were
an offshoot of the adventist movement of the !800's and their theology is
significantly different than the standard fundamentalist. For a totally
different perspective on "hell",the immortal soul (no such thing),
etc. I strongly recommend Ray Smith's site
bible-truths.com This
guy has nothing to do with any religious establishment but he does a good
job of debunking the standard fundamentist claptrap. You could get some really
good info to debunk Falwell type of fundamentalism using the bible itself.
I
see the current fundamentalist movement as VERY dangerous. These people are
totally blind to what they are doing. We are currently in a religious war that
I don't think will end anytime soon - people are just stupid with religion!
There
are well educated people ( in the sciences) that I work with who think
that they're going to be raptured at any time! We're not talking backwoods
bumkins but otherwise reasonable people. This is what worries me. The fundies
have finally figured out a way to get to these people - the rapture. Have you
noticed in recent years how hellfire has been downplayed (at least it
has around here) and how this left behind/Israel crap has taken its place ?
Left behind even has it wrong - there's not one scripture in the bible that
says that the bad guys are left behind but there are several that say the
opposite (if interested let me know - I can find a website).
The
day that The US invaded Iraq
I was seething and the fundies were smiling as
one collegue at work
replied "Jesus is coming" (This person is still waiting to be
raptured but I believe she'll have a very long wait). These fundies get excited
ANYTIME there is conflict in the middle east regarding Israel and/or the USA. During the 1st Gulf
war sales of End of Times Type books skyrocketed.
What
is really interesting is the significance of 9/11. When this tragic event
occurred, it struck me that these guys are really pissed about something. Assuming
that our government was lying as to why ("They hate us because we're
rich") I did some research - actually quite a bit. I figured that
religion (Muslim and Christian) had something to do with it . Turns out
that 9/11 wasn"t a random date. In a Bin Laden tape put out shortly
after 9/11 ( Oct 7 or 9, 2001 or thereabouts) Bin Laden mentions "after
80years of humiliation the sword of justice has struck the US" or
something very close to that -do a web search and you can find the actual transcript.
Well, what happened about 80 years ago ? Sept.11,1922 -on this date the British
Mandate (giving the Jews a homeland in Palestine)
went into effect and the officials were sworn in. In other words, this was the
day that The native people lost their soverignty and the beginning of what is
now Israel.
The really sad thing is that the British and French promised the Arabs their
independence if they fought against the Ottoman Turks (who were allied with
Germany and controlled much of the middle east for 400 years or so) When
the war was over, instead of giving them their independence, they got
occupation (in Palestine until 1948, The Brits also created Iraq and occupied
it for about 10 years). Why did they want a homeland for the Jews ? A bunch of
fundamentalists in the government wanted to help "Bible
Prophecy" along . I guess their god couldn"t do it on his
own. This is a very brief summary if you want more info I can give you website
locations. It gets a lot deeper but this gives some
understanding on the Middle East
madness. Talk about self-fullfilling prophecy!! The problem is the fundies are
getting alot of people hurt or killed so that they can be raptured. I'm pretty
certain, given your fundamentalist background, you know this story. So Falwell
and his brothers are all trying to get poor Jews to go to Israel (Wings of
Eagles program), knowing , from their teaching, that 2/3 of the Jews in Israel
will murdered. Wouldn't that make the fundies accessories to murder ? They
are so "holy". Do any of these people ever stop and THINK about what
they are doing ?
Sophie
Dear Winston,
I loved your story.
It touched me deeply.
I loved your thoughts on
your desire to learn.
I think that is how I
feel.
I am going through some
stuff right now and I think it is because I am to come to a more understanding
and knowledge.
Yes, I feel my soul
wants to evolve to a higher awareness like you so well stated.
Thank you so much for
your thoughts.
Susan
Mr. Wu, I came
upon your website and want to express my respect and admiration for your logic
and your writings.
I am the author of two books: God.com: A Deity for the New Millennium and FEAR
FAITH FACT FANTASY. Although I never accepted, even in my youth, that god could
be as cruel and illogical as the preacher tried to get me to believe in, I kept
my mouth shut. {mostly}
In my advancing age, seeng the many harmful effects of religion, I decided to
write about god and religion. Though my books are not as erudite as yours, I
believe you would be intersted in my simple, elementary, logical approach.
Again thanks for your writings.
Sincerely,
Hi There,
I just looked over your
writings tonight and I am in agreement with you. In fact, I am very passionate
about how intolerant and fanatical evangelists are. I have done much research
on my own about this subject due to my own experiences of being harassed and
threatened by evangelists my whole life.
As a publicist as well
as a person who is very connected to the media, I am in a position to expose
the truth about this fast growing "religious" group, or more
accurately, cult.
I would love talk to you
and learn more about your research. My numbers are <snip> and
<snip>.
Sincerely,
Rachel
Dear Mr. Wu. Thanks for your webpage debunking
Christianity. This is the first time I’ve seen so much info on one page.
Someone needed to do it. If I had had all that info available when I was
in high school, I could have easily de-brainwashed myself of my Christian
indoctrination, which would have saved me from years of misery. Good job!
Winston,
Thanks very much for sending me your updated link, as
well as the link to
"Debunking the arguments of Christian
Fundamentalists."
I read your essay on fundamentalism and thought you
made many good points.
Still, a couple of minor critical comments occurred
to me. I mention these
simply as someone who is interested in the history
and development of
religion. I am not a Christian or a member of any church;
my viewpoint on
these things is too ecumenical to accept a single set
of doctrines.
1. You say that there is no Old Testament tradition
for a messiah figure who
would suffer and die, but I think it could be argued
that the Suffering
Servant of Isaiah fits the bill. Explicit references
to this part of Isaiah
are made in Matt 8:17 and 12:18-21. The Suffering Servant may have been
meant originally as a metaphor for Israel, but by the time of Jesus it
seems
to have been interpreted messianically by some Jews.
As I recall, some of
the Dead Sea Scrolls also refer to this idea.
2. You say that Paul's letters don't refer to Jesus
as a person who lived on
earth recently - he might have lived hundreds of
years earlier. This seems
doubtful, given 1 Cor 15:3-7, which speaks of the
various appearances Paul
has heard about, some allegedly reported by
still-living eyewitnesses. In
this passage Paul also mentions Cephas (Peter) and
James as leaders of the
Jesus movement. James is identified in several other
texts (including
Jospehus - *not* the disputed passage, but another
one) as the brother of
Jesus, so it would seem clear enough that Paul
believed Jesus had lived and
died recently enough to leave behind a still-living
brother (James) and a
still-living disciple (Cephas/Peter).
As I say, fairly minor points.
My own approach to these things follows Marcus Borg,
a liberal Jesus
scholar. In The Meaning of Jesus (co-authored with N.
T. Wright), Borg
contrasts precritical naivete, a childish state of
mind, with postcritical
naivete: "To speak from my own experience, when
I heard the Christmas
stories as a child, I took it for granted that Jesus
really was born of a
virgin and that there really were a magic star, wise
men, birth in a stable
[etc.] ... I simply heard them as true stories. Then
we enter the stage of
critical thinking, which involves evaluating things
we believed and were
taught in childhood ... We are no longer able to hear
them as true stories.
In our time, this stage is intensified and often
prolonged by the modern
identification of truth with factuality ... Skeptics
and biblical
literalists alike ... are often 'fact
fundamentalists': if something didn't
happen, it isn't true ... [But] beyond critical
thinking is postcritical
naivete ... the ability to hear the central stories
of the Christian
tradition once again as true stories. Importantly,
postcritical naivete is
not a return to precritical naivete, for one knows
that the stories may not
be historically factual. But one also knows that
their truth does not depend
upon their historical factuality." (pp. 247-8)
In other words, Borg sees the deep meaning in the
stories as true, even
though the events themselves never happened or didn't
happen in precisely
that way. He quotes a Native American storyteller as
saying, "I don't know
if it happened this way or not, but I know that this
story is true." (p.
248)
This makes more sense to me than "fact
fundamentalism" of any stripe.
Thanks again for the links. Good luck with your
writing.
Best,
Michael Prescott
Hi Winston,
Thanks for your emails - I'm sorry I had not got back
to you earlier, but I wanted to read your testimonial first. When I read it I was
almost convinced I had read it before somewhere. Has it already been on a
website? I had a lot of "deja-vu" with the OCD and Schizophrenia
episodes etc. Either I had read yours or another one very like it. Your name is
familiar too, but maybe I've come across you when I was lurking on various
newsgroups etc. possibly alt.bible.errancy? However some parts of your story
were not familiar, so I was trying to find a story by another that might have
been it. Indeed I remember recommending a story and URL just like yours to
another person with a similar background about a or two year ago. I've spent a
couple of hours looking for that email using various keyword searches but with
no luck! Anyway, if I do find it I'll let you know about the other person and
hopefully the other similar story I found out there.
Ah! Wouldn't you know it - I've just written all that
and I found the email. %-) It seems I read your story in April 2001 when I
found it at http://www.angelfire.com/me2/mccl/ which I see you've linked
to on the URL you gave me anyway! Oh well, I've copied the correspondence in
which I mentioned your story at the end of this email.
Certainly I'll be happy to link directly to you,
maybe it would help if I put up a sentence about your journey. How about
"Winston describes what it's like to combine Christian fundamentalism with
mental health problems and how he recovered from them both." Would that be
okay? I think it would be of interest to others I know about who have described
struggling through depression as a Christian and how they are coping now.
Whilst I obviously found your story valuable enough already to want to
recommend it to others the only reason I wouldn't have linked directly to you
before would have been because http://www.angelfire.com/me2/mccl/ was
already on a webring I link to, and to link to everybody would make for a lot
of links! That's why in general I like to link to collections of stories or
webrings. However if you want more exposure I'm happy to oblige.
I look forward to reading more of your treatise too,
although it might take me some time!
Regards,
Steve
======================================
Leaving Christianity
www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html
Dear Mr. Wu:
I have only just discovered your extensive web site.
From what I have read of it thus far, you very accurately depict the mentality
of fundamentalism and you obviously know what it is like to undergo extensive
brainwashing.
I consider myself a Pantheist and
Theosophist. I did extensive research as you have done in order to rid
myself of this Christian brainwashing. Too bad we have to go to such lengths,
but that is what it takes in many cases.
Patricia
Mr Wu:
I was gratified to read your essays regarding your
own Christian experience and de-conversion narrative. You also debunk
fundamentalism in a concise logical way w/o the usual ranting and raving that
so many ex-Christians do.
This all hits close to home given that I am an
ex-Xian and at one time was a ardent layman in the Lutheran Church-Missouri
Synod( not fundamentalist per se; they are like BibleBeaters with High Church
trappings). I was amazed that so many well-educated people within actually
believed in all the cosmology, metaphysics of the orthodox Church, including a
full-professor of chemistry who adhered to the six 24 hour day fable of
creation. This makes me believe that the scientist Richard Dawkins has a valid
point when he dubbed religion as a *mind virus* given that cerebral people can fall
into dogmaticism, fundamentalism.
My own de-conversion began when I was
puzzled by all the contradictions I seen in the Bible and didn't accept the
Lutheran explanation as the dichotomy between Law&Gospel or their favorite
phrase -"it's a Mystery". Subsequently I researched the history of
the Bible, how it came into being, plus Christianity in it's early
formation which led me to believe that it was just a power move by a Roman
emperor, and began to doubt the historical Christ as well. For a long time I
kept my deep skepticism to myself and played the 'cultural Christian' gambit
until I finally left the church following Good Friday services last year. Now I
cannot believe that I' believed'. Presently I would classify myself as
agnostic and hope that the religion virus remains in remission as long as I
walk this Earth. If someone held a gun to my head and forced me to choose a
world religion it would be Taoism largely because it is non-theistic, doesn't
missionize and is concerned about the here and now and doesn't have
puritianical ethical proscriptions like the Xians, Muslims, and even the
Buddhists do.
Thanks for reading my own soapbox meanderings
and thanks again for publishing your essays.
Sincerely,
Mitch Bailly
Dear Winston,
I learned of your "testimonial" page from
my friend Ed Babinski. I want to congratulate you for your insight in
breaking away from religious fundamentalism, and your courage in telling
the story. Many of your arguments and reasoning will stand as an
excellent resource for me.
I understand how painful it was to break away,
because I had a similar one in my early 20's. If you would
like, please read my story at
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/testimonials/nahigian.html.
You will find that the awakening will take the rest
of your life -- at least that it how it is for me, each day a new
discovery. Good luck with it.
- Kenneth E. Nahigian
Hi Winston,