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Appendix A:
My Summary Response to Two Christian Missionaries
Note: In response to
some long discussions I had with two Christian missionary friends, I wrote up
the following summary outline response to them, that stated their claims, my
responses and objections, in an attempt to narrow down our discussion to the
bottom line impasse points. If you find
it useful, you may print it out to show other Christians who may be preaching
to you as well, so they get the idea of the bottom line issues they can’t
answer.
Below the outline is a response by FaithRada, a fascinating mystic on my list whose comments
are guaranteed to stretch your mind to new heights you didn’t know were
possible!
My Summary Response to Two Christian Missionaries
(their names removed at their request)
By Winston Wu
Purpose: The reason I feel compelled to write this
outline summary and response of our discussions because 1) I constantly get
interrupted during my presentation to you two, to the point that I cannot even
complete one point or argument among several that I usually have. Therefore I hope this outline will lay out my
response and the problems I see to your claims point by point. 2) I hope that
this outline will help us all see the big picture, and identify the core root
of our differences, so we do not continue in endless fruitless debate. This outline below details 2 major areas that
we’ve been discussing, 1) the testimonials of changed lives of born again
Christians, and 2) huge assumptions regarding Salvation and the Bible.
Conflict of purpose of our
discussion: Let me note first that one main problem I
have identified in our discussions is we have a conflict of purpose. I get the impression that this is not an open
discussion where we listen to each other’s arguments and ideas, and respond to
them. You two do not seem interested in
hearing or considering my arguments and views.
I get the impression that to you, our whole discussion is all about this
“truth” from the Bible, and whether I am willing to come to terms with it. You do not seem to be willing to consider
that you may be wrong or that I may be correct, nor do you wish to hear and
examine my reasons, arguments, and evidence.
This represents a conflict of purpose, motive, perception, and mentality
between us in our discussions.
I.
Your claims vs. my responses and objections
A. Your claim:
Testimony of changed lives – You argue that the many wonderful beautiful
inspiring testimonials of changed lives of born again Christians proves the
validity of their faith.
1. My response: I agree with you that many such cases exist without
a doubt. I was such a case too. I also agree that there is some supernatural
power behind these changed lives, answered prayers, and miracles. However, you don’t seem to understand or
acknowledge the following.
·
Problem # 1: The first problem is that these
cases do automatically mean that all the doctrines of your faith and the Bible
are all true. Nor do they erase all
other similar testimonials of other religions contrary to your own.
·
Problem # 2: The second problem is that I could
EASILY bring up the SAME kind evidence of changed lives and testimonials from
other belief systems, religions, pop psychology fads, self-help groups,
Alcoholics Anonymous groups, New Age sects, Wiccans,
even from Atheists/Agnostics, etc.
However, just because those testimonials are true and sincere does not
mean each of those belief systems and practices are right for everyone. The same goes for your faith too.
2. Your response: Your response to the above is that these same
testimonials of changed lives in other religions/belief systems mean nothing if
they are not based on the Bible, and that Satan could be behind them because he
can appear as an angel of light and is the father of lies.
·
The problem: The problem and what you don’t
get is that claiming that Satan is behind the testimonials of other
religions/spiritual practices DOES NOT erase or invalidate them. You seem to think that claiming that Satan is
behind them is some kind of a “magic eraser” that can delete all contrary
evidence! Not only is it a total cop
out, but it’s insulting to others as well.
How would you feel and how would you like it if I used the “Satan is
behind it” explanation to explain away your evidence of Christian testimonials
too?
B. Related claim: Life without Christ is empty, and no
non-Christian is truly happy, no matter what they have in life.
1. My response: I can agree with your argument above to a
certain point. Based on my behavior and
life patterns, it can be argued that my life is empty to a point.
·
Problem # 1: The problem is that even if we
conclude that my life is empty and unsatisfying, it doesn’t mean that the
Christian faith is the answer that would satisfy my life, especially since I
have tried it for years before. Though
you disagree, the fact is that no one religion or belief system is right for
everyone. I feel that due to my
metaphysical views, other religions and spiritual practices are more suited for
me. I have too many problems with
Christian doctrine, theology, mentality, etc.
In fact, I would even find more fulfillment and meaning in Buddhism than
Christianity, as it makes far more sense and is far less controversial.
2. Your response: Your response to this would be that if I had
been truly born again of the Holy Spirit, I would have been happy, fulfilled
and changed in a way that I could never deconvert.
3. My response: You can say that if you wish, but I was once
as fervent and zealous as you were, as were many ex-Christians. Let me give you some examples. I was so zealous that I once almost wrote
Bible verses on the chalk board of my mom’s Buddhist study center. In high school, I even risked getting
physically attacked by Muslim students, by attempting to witness to them. One time in an Art History class, after a
lecture on Christian history, I gave the teacher some Christian gospel tracts
to inform him of the true story of Jesus, to which the next day, he politely
handed them back to me saying that he wasn’t the right person for me to be
witnessing to. I felt embarrassed going
out on a limb like that, but I thought I was doing the right thing.
·
Problem # 2: Many non-Christians who don’t
share your beliefs, do claim and do have generally happy and fulfilling
lives. Though you don’t believe them and
deny it, that does not make these other testimonials untrue or erase them.
·
Problem # 3: Many many
former Christians who shared your beliefs (some fervently too) felt empty,
incomplete, unhappy, and restless in your faith, thus deconverted
and went to other belief systems. Your
only defense is to claim that they were never real Christians in the first
place, but deep down you know that is a TOTAL COP OUT. Every zealot and fanatic says the same thing
about the deconverts of their beliefs. It’s nothing new.
C. Related claim: Even if I got all the things I want in this
world/life, it wouldn’t make me truly happy but would leave me empty.
1. My response: I
only agree with that partially. I
honestly feel that if I got all the things I wanted in life, I would be much
happier than I am now. Of course, I
wouldn’t be perfectly happy 24 hours a day, for life is not like that and is
cyclical in nature. But the bottom line
is that I would be MUCH happier in general if I got what I wanted in life, than
if I didn’t.
II.
Huge assumptions you have regarding Salvation and the Bible which
divide us
A. All people are wicked sinners and destined to
spend an eternity in hell unless they receive Christ as their Savior.
B. The Bible is the complete infallible inerrant
word of God.
C. A is true because of B (e.g. “The Bible says
so….”) and everything that doesn’t fit in with the two assumptions above is
false and/or of Satan.
1.
My response: These assumptions lie at the
core root that divide us, and why we do not see eye to eye. I think you two would agree on that too. Please note the following objections.
·
Problem # 1: The first problem here is that
I don’t share these assumptions that you have, though you seem to expect that I
ought to.
·
Problem # 2: These assumptions you have
above are not only completely circular in nature, but are VERY VERY EXTREME CLAIMS.
To go around proclaiming to others that if they don’t believe in your
gospel then they will go to a literal eternal neverending
state of torment is perhaps the most extreme claim in the world. Of course such a claim would result in severe
counterattacks, backlash and controversy from those who disagree! What did you expect? The problem is that you cannot realistically
expect rational intelligent sane people to believe such extreme claims just
because you can point to some verses in the Bible that say so!
·
Problem # 3: What you and other Christians
like you fail to understand and realize about assumption C is that: JUST
BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SOMETHING DOESN’T MEAN IT’S TRUE! That is the BOTTOM LINE in all this
discussion/debate. Showing people Bible
verses to support assumptions A and B do not prove anything. Text and words printed in a book do not
constitute proof. You know that. Now and throughout history, millions of books
have been written, but that doesn’t mean that everything in them is true! You know that, so why not apply it to your
beliefs too?
·
Problem # 4: In regards to B, here’s the big
shocker. What followers of Christian
fundamentalists don’t know and never realize is: NOWHERE in the Bible does it claim to be
God’s word. And NOWHERE in the Bible
does it claim to be infallible. The doctrine of Biblical inspiration and
infallibility was made up by Christian fundamentalists to create an artificial
foundation for their faith.
Fundamentalists love to cite 2 Timothy 3:16; however, the “Scriptures”
referred to in that verse refer to the Old Testament, and the term
“inspiration” does not mean “word of God” either. (i.e. if a tree inspires me
to write a poem about it, is that poem my words or the tree’s words?) In any case, NOWHERE in the Bible does
it claim that all 66 books in it are infallible. Nowhere.
Period. That’s something
Christians say, not the Bible or God. In
fact, many of the authors of the Bible had no idea that their books would be
canonized into an “infallible word of God” book. Even in Paul’s epistles, he made it clear
that he was writing personal letters, not dictating whatever God was telling
him to write down. He even says
literally in three verses in his epistles that these are his words, and not
God’s! (1 Corinthians
·
Problem # 5: Finding unique
and special things about the Bible that make it stand out doesn’t make it the
infallible word of God. Regarding prophecy
fulfillment for example, heck, I could find examples of prophecy fulfillment in
Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings book series. And there are also prophecy fulfillment
examples in Homer’s work The Iliad (e.g. the prophecy that the first
soldier from the Greek invasion fleet to set afoot on
·
Problem # 6: Though you fervently believe in
assumption A, you simply CAN’T PROVE OR DEMONSTRATE IT. You present zero evidence that there is a
Judgment Day that everyone who ever lived will stand before, where those who
accepted Christ will enter into heaven while those who didn’t will be thrown in
hell. All you present are words and text
in a book. Yet you expect people to
believe it, take it seriously, and change their lives for it! In effect, this extreme claim simply can’t be
proven nor disproven either. And pointing to text in a book doesn’t prove
it either. That’s all we can say. The problem is, you expect rational sane
people to simply believe it, because “the Bible says so”. That is totally unrealistic. You can’t expect people to change their lives
for this assumption either, just in case it might be true, because what about
all the other extreme claims out there?
Should we all change our lives for them too, just in case they “might”
be true?
Conclusion
Based on the above summary
outline of your claims, my responses, objections, and identification of core problems,
I conclude that the core problems I described are unanswerable and mark an
impasse point in our discussions, as you two would most likely repeat the same
claims in response to them. Though both
of your are extremely fervent in your beliefs, I hope you can open your minds
to try to understand my objections. In
addition to the arguments and objections I present above, there are many more
in the article on my site refuting the major Christian Evangelical arguments (www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Christian_Arguments.htm). Thank you for your time and attention to my
summary and response outline.
Appendix B:
Mystic FaithRada Comments on My Summary
Response Outline
In response to the summary response outline above,
an out-of-this-world mystic on my list named FaithRada
wrote this eloquent, impressive, and enlightening analysis of them and the
meaning of true “Christ Consciousness”.
It’s definitely worth reading and will stretch your mind to new heights!
FaithRada@aol.com
writes:
In a message dated
Winston: ....( to Missionaries)
I get the impression that this is not an open discussion where we listen
to each other’s arguments and ideas, and respond to them. You two do not
seem interested in hearing or considering my arguments and views. I get
the impression that to you, our whole discussion is all about this “truth” from
the Bible, and whether I am willing to come to terms with it. You do not
seem to be willing to consider that you may be wrong or that I may be correct,
nor do you wish to hear and examine my reasons, arguments, and
evidence. >>
Having been in this type of "deadlock"
many times I finally began to look deeper .. into why some ARE so
"deadlocked" in their particular chosen "Beliefs" in
the first place.. So I asked "God" /. Higher Self
-and this is what I got back... KARMA . People are born into or seek out
whatever "religion" or belief system is needed to support one's
current karma.
So.. it is not as though they have a
"choice" per say.... they are literally STUCK in that belief system
until their karma is done there. They WILL find out later
that their "mission" was not about others.. but about
themselves.
Were they able to approach others with love
and respect? With humility? OR... did they have to be
"RIGHT" and become arrogant in their "supposed"
knowledge? Judging themselves as right and the others as wrong?
I have met Christians that were so sweet and
loving.. who really tried to align with the inner Love that Jesus spoke of, and
I have also met the ones who felt that their own intellectual
understanding of the scriptures was "where it was at".... Ironically
"God", Supreme Consciousness, does not even CARE what belief system
one holds AS LONG AS ONE HAS A LOVING NATURE.
Eventually, (though probably not in this
life) they will understand what it means to be REALLY "Born
Again". Physical death does not bring this kind
of knowledge.
*** Some
really do know.. but it is NOT a normal knowing of the mind, it is
something MUCH more. MOST are only talking about a surface shift,
which is fine in its own right .. but NOT the ultimate KNOWING. To
be truly BORN Again means to "die into" the Ultimate
Reality.. to recognize that there is nothing here BUT God... and we
are ALL THAT, (though in a contracted mode)
This is the ONE death Jesus references and not the physical
death.. which is not that big a deal, when you finally see what that is about.
Someone of a religious mind set.. (any religion, it does not matter) , who is not truly "Born Again"
or, had their own dormant inner Divinity Fully Awakened by Grace, will hear
this only as some blasphemous deranged statement.. not yet able
to perceive what is actually being suggested here. It is
NOT an intellectual knowing. If one THINKS they know.. they do not
know. THINKing belongs to duality. It is a
process of the finite mind. whereas "God" reveals IT's TOTAL SELF within the NON dual state.. beyond
mind. To have that kind of Knowing one must BECOME one with THAT which
is.
It is one thing to know there is (a) God... and that is wonderful to be
sure, still, most people hold that ONLY as a belief. Yet, to
many .... knowing there is God ... is what THEY mean by
being "Born Again".. But ... it is
quite another thing to know there is ONLY God.... everywhere...
manifesting AS everything and everyone here. To have Jesus' knowledge.. to know
YOU yourself ARE the Christ...and that there is ONLY The Christ (or Pure
Consciousness) .... THAT is being FULLY Born Again. In that moment you REALIZE that you have
never BEEN Born NOR do you EVER DIE. At
that point you don't bother trying to change someone's religion because you see
ALL Religions as your own SELF. Truly God does not care..
only people who still have some work to do really think the
beliefs of others matters to God. But it DOES matter to us !, since it is our own limited minds that keep us
from fully knowing God.. our own True SELF.
A true 'born again' would not say ANY
religion or concept of God was wrong... they would only tell you that it is incomplete, as it
must be to the finite mind.
Without Grace.. no shift.
Jesus was not simply about heaven.. that was just an aside, for
those not yet ready to really "Die" yet. Jesus'
main purpose here,as
with any who come in Christ Consciousness, was/is about becoming One with THAT.
Win, you could
suggest that they seek out the living Christ... HERE AND NOW.
It is manifest for those with the eyes to see.
It has NEVER left us. It has always been closer to us than our own
breath.
What one NEEDS is to have their
own Divine inner energy awakened.. and then they can at least have a
chance of understanding the Christ's words from the most pure
perspective, with the blockages of finite mind
removed. THAT is the power of
Grace. But.. that takes incredibly good karma. (karma being a topic which is mostly
misunderstood by the Western mind,and even many
in the "Eastern" philosophies.)
In the Bible, "Thomas" had
excellent karma.... Peter? ... he needed a little more work.
His anger and his jealousy blocked the deeper meaning of Jesus' teachings from
his mind and that is true for all humanity to this day to one degree
or another.
Without LOVE ....born of
humility and respect for the Divine, that exists within,
and as all living beings (and
also all inanimate objects),
one may HEAR the words, but those words will not reveal their
inner truth to them.
So.. if you listen to
Peter's words with mundane ears.. you get ONLY what he got... (not enough to Die into The Supreme One totally.) if you listen to THOMAS .. the
WAY Thomas listened.. then you get it all. For Peter ...
Jesus became a religion. For Thomas ... he became One With Jesus, he
achieved Godhood.
So Win....
Think back on your own experiences with
religion. You yourself were SO adamant at one point yes? BUT then,
at some point you had a "shift"... you saw things differently.. WHY?
Because.... that karma was done.
True, we then move on to different karma,..
but NOT until our current karma is done.
We may THINK we have free choice in these matters..
but not so, not *directly anyway In
the same way .. you are going through your own karma right now by feeling the
NEED to chase "bodies" around
* (
free will is a very complex and esoteric topic. It is real yet it is not real)
Eventually one learns how to get off the roller
coaster all together.. but apparently you are not ready for that yet. Sez La Vie.
Eventually they will evolve into a
higher understanding.. but remember we ARE playing in eternity
here. Supreme Consciousness has plenty of time to play out all the
scenarios.
My suggestion? Just send them blessings
and move on, because they really cannot "hear" you.
You could contemplate this though.. Most, if not
all meetings are karmic in nature. So they may have something to offer
you.. though it will probably NOT be what they think it is. You COULD use
them as a "mirror" for your own way of being in the world right
now. Different topic, different level.. but the same scenario at
work. Everyone has something to teach us, if we can look deeply
enough into it.
It is
said that if we are continually experiencing the same
kind of scenarios over and over again, it is because we have not
yet learned that lesson. Once we DO learn, then that issue does not come
back and we get to "move on". When you think about it, it sort
of makes sense.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WIN <<
• The problem: The first problem is that these cases
do automatically mean that all the doctrines of your faith and the Bible are
all true. Nor do they erase all other similar testimonials of other
religions contrary to your own.>>
FR ~ Seems only logical .. Until you see
how one's karma can blocking them from that viewpoint right
now.
• Problem # 2: The second problem is that I could
EASILY bring up the SAME kind evidence of changed lives and testimonials from
other belief systems, religions, pop psychology fads, self-help groups,
Alcoholics Anonymous groups, New Age sects, Wiccans,
even from Atheists/Agnostics, etc. However, just because those
testimonials are true and sincere does not mean each of those belief systems
and practices are right for everyone. The same goes for your faith too.
2. Your response: Your response to the above is that these
same testimonials of changed lives in other religions/belief systems mean
nothing if they are not based on the Bible, and that Satan could be behind them
because he can appear as an angel of light and is the father of lies.>>
Ahhh The Satan ploy. When in doubt go
find Satan to help you out :0
But again, remember.. they CANNOT yet accept what
you suggest since their Karma is blocking them from what should be
obvious.
When
someone is working from Belief, or even from subjective knowing,
as opposed to Transcendent Knowing, they will never fully grasp that
there is a valid, albeit LIMITED view, to
ALL perspectives.
Until we move INTO the MIND of God.. there
can be no REAL Divine or transcendent Knowing,where Supreme
Consciousness holds ALL perspectives as ITs own. Not
judging any of it but simply enjoying that limited perspective.
One who is still contracted and has not entered
the supreme "Mind of God" will only hear statements
of Divine Knowledge as just some other mundane perspective of the mind..
and ASSUME the speaker is simply falling into their own trap and coming from
subjective mind. But that may not be the case at
all. They may have received Transcendent Knowledge. THIS is
True revelation. This was the reality of
the Transcendentalists such as Thoreau and Emerson and Alcott etc.
NO one else can really understand them until they become ONE with
THEM. It certainly IS baffling. .. but that is also
a part of the Game God plays. As "HE" hides right in front
of His own SELF.
Ultimately people HEAR from
where THEY are, and not necessarily from the state where the speaker
is. Evolution of soul is real ... the Good news is .... it's as
long a journey as we chose it to be. The Bad news is..... it's as
long a journey that we chose it to be.
Back to the point... it is foolish for anyone
to THINK they can just read legitimate Divine Scripture from any True path and
THINK they understand it. The writer MUST be Divinely
inspired PLUS the READER ALSO MUST be Divinely
Inspired. They must BOTH occupy the same state of Grace. It is rare
that they are.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Win to Missionaries <<• The problem:
The problem and what you don’t get is that claiming that Satan is behind
the testimonials of other religions/spiritual practices DOES NOT erase or
invalidate them. You seem to think that claiming that Satan is behind
them is some kind of a “magic eraser” that can delete all contrary evidence!
Not only is it a total cop out, but it’s insulting to others as well. How
would you feel and how would you like it if I used the “Satan is behind it”
explanation to explain away your evidence of Christian testimonials
too?>>
If we think of Satan as being that state of
incredible contraction of mind, then we can say that Satan is indeed blinding
them from their own Divine Inner Truth. Again..
karma. The "Christ" or pure Consciousness, through
those MOST Pure Beings such as Jesus, wants all of humanity to realize their
full potential.
By choosing to give
"Satan" oppositional Power to "God" ...
people then in fact create that reality. Now suddenly God
becomes one of two powers ..... and the power play of the MIND
begins.
The fact is .. there is only ONE Power in this
Universe... and it is God, the ultimate reality. There is no
"other" but Supreme Consciousness anywhere... choosing to manifest as
ALL this. But the unawakened dualistic
mind cannot deal with this so our sense of separateness from the
Divine, and from each other continues as a reality for us.
The
minute you KNOW God (from God's perspective) ( and not just of God) , you KNOW , beyond
the finite minds' ability to know that there is no room for
a "Satan" in God's ultimate reality. ... just in our
own. Will "Satan" , or evil, be REAL for you
if duality is all you know? Of course.. because the finite
mind judges. It sees only good VS Bad where there is ULTIMATELY only
total perfection everywhere.
It says.. this is Good, but that is Bad.
That is all the play of the mind.
To a mind who sets itself ONLY on God, the reality
of Evil cannot enter there. But first that mind must RECOGNIZE what God
actually is. THAT is the problem.. and it is a HUGE one.
When Grace comes, of its own accord, you get to
know.. there is only God's perfection everywhere. Until
then... Satan can ruin a perfectly nice day : (
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Missioaries
B. Related claim: Life without Christ is empty, and no
non-Christian is truly happy, no matter what they have in life.
Win
1. My response: I can agree with your argument above to
a certain point. Based on my behavior and life patterns, it can be argued
that my life is empty to a point.
• The problem: The problem is that even if we conclude that
my life is empty and unsatisfying, it doesn’t mean that the Christian faith
is the answer that would satisfy my life, ...>>
FR ~ Your point is absolutely
valid However it can only be readily known to these Fundamentalist if
God decides to reveal to them that "HE" really does not care
HOW you Get it .. as long as you Get it.
Grace does NOR differentiate and to believe
it does is to not understand Grace OR GOD ( same thing) at all.
IN FACT... Grace works BEST through a
pure and loving heart which is NOT bogged down with dogmatic belief systems of
ANY religion. Throw it all out ..ALL but the LOVE, and you will most
likely discover the
That being said .. the soul still NEEDS to go
through different stages of evolving as a spiritual entity
Picture for a moment Einstein explaining the Theory of relativity to a
chicken ... It may be true.. but it is certainly wasted on the
chicken. The finite mind is a lot like that compared to
Truth Absolute... only with a MUCH bigger gap. :0
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
So.... they are where they NEED to be.. as are you
Win. The question becomes... Who is the better off?????
That's easy... the ONE with the MOST LOVE in their hearts. The
intellect runs a far distant second here.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
The intellect LIKES to "figure it all
out", to understand. But the Supreme ONE cannot BE understood
by nor attained by the workings of the intellect. The minute one
starts arguing scripture etc... they have lost focus on what is really important.
Scripture will REMAIN DEAD..misunderstood, no
matter how valid it is... for a heart that cannot GIVE and RECEIVE with the
recognition that ALL is Divine.
Learn to LOVE and Supreme Consciousness WILL take
care of everything else.
One who is "Born Again" walks through the
"
2. Your response: Your response to this would
be that if I had been truly born again of the Holy Spirit, I would have been
happy, fulfilled and changed in a way that I could never deconvert.>>
Well, that is sort of true.. because to be Born
Again" is to see ones self thought God's eyes. At that point ALL religions
are seen as ONE. There is nothing to "deconvert"
to... All is God. Proclaiming ones self a Christian and
saying the words "I accept Jesus" means nothing until you
RECOGNIZE who YOU are. The Godhead. Otherwise it is just the
ego telling itself it is surrendering to its own contracted concept of
God.
I was an Agnostic and God bestowed IT"s Grace on me. Awakening me to my own
Divine Nature. which is the SAME in ALL. Until that moment I had no idea
who Jesus REALLY was. NOR who I was. Such knowledge is truly BEYOND
the mind's capacity to know, via the intellect alone.
btw.. Supreme Consciousness, That which
is the ONE ... is far more than JUST "Creator". That is simply ONE of
its aspects. There are more... more than finite mind can even begin to
fathom.
On Surrender.
Jesus would tell you ... Whatever one THINKS Surrender is...
once you have finally achieved THAT you see that it was NONE of the things
you EVER thought it was. That
moment is saved for God and God alone and cannot be talked about, understood or
experienced by the mind.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3. My response: You can say that if you wish, but I was once
as fervent and zealous as you were, as were many ex-Christians. Let me
give you some examples. I was so zealous that I once almost wrote Bible
verses on the chalk board of my mom’s Buddhist study center. In high
school, I even risked getting physically attacked by Muslim students, by
attempting to witness to them. One time in an Art History class, after a
lecture on Christian history, I gave the teacher some Christian gospel tracts
to inform him of the true story of Jesus, to which the next day, he politely
handed them back to me saying that he wasn’t the right person for me to be
witnessing to. I felt embarrassed going out on a limb like that, but I
thought I was doing the right thing.>>
AAhhh ... consider
this.. IF you felt embarrassed AT THAT POINT
IN TIME.. then you did not, for whatever reason, accept it as fully
REAL.. even back then. Truth is never embarrassed. Embarrassment is the
realm of the impure ego.
Anyway.. their own fervor
and zealousness is their own karma playing out. You had your
karma, and they have theirs. The point is to get beyond all that and
simply learn to come from a place of Love... respecting the idea that God may
indeed have a number of surprises in store for us on this long journey
home.... to a place we NEVER left :) Bottom line here is.. Do
not judge any of it... Why should you ? God doesn't. We are
all simply living God's play. We are NOT in charge here. God
is. So just practice loving.... in every moment see how you might
add LOVE to that moment and you WILL change that experience for the better.
This earth plane is the classroom for our
souls. God is NOT some harsh taskmaster , it is our own minds that
beat on us. Divine Consciousness simply Loves. and the interactive
ASPECT of that Divine Love guides and gives us what we need... which
is rarely what we THINK we want. :( We should learn to
listen for that inner voice which is always with all of us, forsaking
none. It is we who forsake by not loving.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• Problem # 2: Many
non-Christians who don’t share your beliefs, do claim and do have generally
happy and fulfilling lives. Though you don’t believe them and deny it,
that does not make these other testimonials untrue or erase them.>>
FR ~ Well think about itWinston .. What does it matter if they cannot
yet recognize for themselves, that another
is already walking in the full Grace of God, bathed in the Bliss of
Divine Unconditional love WITHOUT the need for religion?
That
is for the Awakened to KNOW and the unawakened
to find out.
If one's religion can teach them about
conditional love, fine, that's a good start, but more often
than not religion sadly teaches fear .. the very thing that holds us in
bondage!
You note I said without the need for religion,
but I did not say.. without the need for GRACE. Grace is
essential, but Grace has little if nothing to do with religion.. it
has everything to do with the purity of one's own "heart" and
God's willingness to capture our hearts and awaken us to The Supreme
Reality within.... That You and God are ONE.
This is UNLIMITED Compassion. This is how God
really works.
For those who believe God
favors their approach over others of pure heart ...
they have an amazing surprise in store. Wait until they see
that Agnostics,Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, etc. even Atheists have found a way to jump into
the Heart of God.. ahead of them!!! ..... Ohh
that moment will be SO humbling...and they will know. Not "in"
time.. but Outside of Time. Where all TRUE Knowing takes place.
C. Related claim: Even if I got all the things I want
in this world/life, it wouldn’t make me truly happy but would leave me empty.
1. My response: I only agree with that partially. I
honestly feel that if I got all the things I wanted in life, I would be much
happier than I am now. Of course, I wouldn’t be perfectly happy 24 hours
a day, for life is not like that and is cyclical in nature. But the
bottom line is that I would be MUCH happier in general if I got what I wanted
in life, than if I didn’t.>>
Your bottom
line unfortunately is totally NOT So. To get
what we WANT in this life is an incredible curse.
Each life is designed to give us
exactly the experiences we need in order to Grow spiritually. The
GOAL here is to be not just "happy" but to be in total Supreme
BLISS.. all the time. You have not even glimpsed this State yet, or
you would not be foolish enough to make such a statement.
In spiritual terms here... you are "selling your soul for a HOT DOG!." When one finally is able to 'TOUCH THE FACE OF GOD' .. they KNOW that everything in this mundane world is like a hell in comparison. "Stuff" just distracts us from the real goal and becomes a burden. It is only when we let EVERYTHING GO.. that we RECEIVE everything. We become the JOY. Only silly words...until you GET there.</