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Your view on abortion

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My complicated stance on abortion - Not a black/white issue

Postby Winston » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:14 pm

Jeygonza wrote:Winston are you crazy? Or maybe you're not human?

Have you asked a woman about that? Do you know what it means for some of them?


You said have unwanted children is cruel .... But what do you think about yourself? I mean your point of view.


You don't think forcing a woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy is cruel? Think about that. A man can just run away from an unwanted pregnancy, but a woman is stuck with the child.

An unwanted pregnancy forces the parents, especially the woman, to endure 20 years of an unpaid job in which she loses all her freedom and becomes enslaved to another. Would you like someone forcing that upon you?

Watch that George Carlin video above. He makes a lot of good points in it.

But let's say you are right, that abortion is wrong and murder. So what? Even if it were morally wrong, that doesn't mean that bringing the child into the world is always the "best decision" for everyone involved. You see, the right thing and the best thing are NOT always the same thing. What if you were a poor Filipino mom, and knew that a child you brought in would become a beggar on the street? Would you want to bring that upon a child? Would being forced to endure a 20 year unpaid job that takes away all your freedom and makes you unhappy be the "best thing" for your life?

You see, anyone can stand up and say "Abortion is wrong". It only takes one second to do that. But what if you were faced with this real life dilemma:

1) Go through with an unwanted pregnancy and be forced to endure a 20 year unpaid job and the total loss of your freedom.
2) Do something morally wrong, but it would free you of #1.

What would you do? Many people, even those against abortion, would choose #2, because it would be the best thing for THEM, whether right or wrong. (But they would try to be discreet about their decision of course) You can't always be moral in every situation. You have to be real sometimes and do what's best for everyone involved. No child ought to grow up unwanted. So why force a bad thing for everyone involved? Think about it.

Abortion is a terrible thing. I'd never want anyone to have to do one. It's better to never have to make such a decision. But faced with the two scenarios above, a lot of people would choose #2, not because it's the right thing, but because it's the best thing for everyone involved, logically speaking.

Besides, if murder is wrong, what about all the insects you've killed? And all the animals you've eaten? Do you condone that too? Are all the people who kill cows and chickens murderers too? What about all the bacteria in your body that your immune system kills? Is that morally wrong too? What about all the semen that comes out after masturbation and dies? What about all the fertilized eggs that come out during menstruation and die? Is all that morally wrong too? Are you a mass murderer when you go through menstruation? Where's the consistency here?

I'm not pro-abortion or pro-life, because the issue is not that simple or black and white. But you gotta look at the reality of what's involved here. Anyone can take a moral stance, but when you are facing dire and permanent consequences, you might just decide to do the "best thing", rather than the "right thing".

Abortion is terrible, but so is an unwanted pregnancy. This is one of the worst issues in life you can face. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

PS - Also, on a deeper note: Why does one always have to do what's moral, when God and Mother Nature have no morality at all? Mother Nature kills countless animals, insects and plant life every second. And God allows wars, famines, poverty, disease, hunger, greed, and evil to kill people everyday. He does nothing to stop it. He lets evil people prosper and good people die young. He allows the strong to take advantage of the weak, and the "might is right" principle to rule the world. So if God himself has no morals, why must humans? How can there be any "universal morality code" if God or Mother Nature doesn't follow it? It's a terrible question, I know. Nothing makes sense in this world or life. But for crying out loud, stop pretending that there is some absolute "divine moral code" that exists for all creation.
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Re: My complicated stance on abortion - Not a black/white is

Postby walrusface » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:52 am

Winston wrote:
What about all the semen that comes out after masturbation and dies?


Haha. I thought about that as well. I must have committed mass genocide over the years.
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Postby Jeygonza » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:18 pm

Lol that's so funny you've declared you are a murder.
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Postby adria2789 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:40 am

I don't agree with abortion iself, it is murder especially when its in the later trimester of pregnancy. However, I think the choice to have one should be legal. It if becomes illegal, then it goes underground and more dangerous. A lot of women die from botched abortions every year. Women can also go to places where it is legal. Abortions have been and will continue to happen regardless of laws in a state/country.

It shouldn't be a type of birth control, in which, the woman gets it everytime she is pregnant. It shouldn't serve as a unlimited "get of jail free card". There are contraceptives out there (the pill, patch, condoms etc)to prevent pregnancy. There is always abstience as well but I'm aware for some, it is not an option :wink: Of course there are situations in which neither is possible like incest and rape. In those cases, abortion is usually more accepted in our society and rightfully so.

As for the men, they can voice their opinion on abortions but women ultimately face the decision to go through an abortion or not. It's a decision no one should ever have to go through but it happens. Women are the ones with the fetus/baby growing inside of them. They cannot run away from the situation and must do what's best (not necessarily the right) thing for themselves.
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Postby djfourmoney » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:57 pm

walrusface wrote:It is unfair to bring kids into the world if you don't want them. If there was a woman, who (like me) didn't want kids and got pregnant, then it hardly seems fair to make her go through the agony of childbirth for something she doesn't want. Especially if it is a result of rape etc.

If the kid is put up for adoption there's always a chance he or she will want to find their real parents and come looking for you. It would be really awkward for all concerned.

Birth control is never %100 effective so obviously these things can happen to people who don't want them.


How is a woman who doesn't want children and a man who doesn't want to have children get pregnant? What do you think its magic? Sh*t happens but not often enough to be concerned about it. She's on something and you wear a condom = 98% preventive

You are the 99% not the 1%, so that 2% that either the condom fails (rare) or she missed a day taking the pill (happens more often than you think).

Prevention, just as Conservation are anathema to both political positions because many believe they subvert "Freedom" ie: being told what to do as adults.

Wear a condom, she's on the pill = Prevention

Having the amount of children your income now and for the next 20 or so years can support = Conservation not being the Dugger's or Octo Mom.

If people through on those terms, less abortions would be needed in the first place. In Europe were Sex Education is taken seriously and they have less abortions, no stigma to having sex, no stigma about using birth control.
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Postby Winston » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:37 pm

Alright I just wrote a whole essay on this topic. Here it is. I hope you find it interesting and gives you something to think about.

Why Abortion Is Not A Simple Matter of Right or Wrong Ethics

To those who believe that "Abortion is wrong, it is murder" let me try to open your mind to a larger perspective. I am not going to present any standard pro-choice arguments here about a woman's right to choose and do what they want with their own body, etc. I am not going to tell you that you are wrong either, but show you that this is not a simple black and white issue of ethics, by giving you a lot more to consider. To really understand this issue, you have to understand the consequences, outcomes and effects involved from a larger picture perspective. Also, when you realize that your "moral logic" is inconsistent and largely subjective, relative and situational, you will realize that this is a complex gray area issue, not a black and white one.

So for a few minutes, please turn off your moral righteousness and ethical prejudices, and try to look at this issue sympathetically and rationally, from a larger perspective, as I lay out the decision tree and consequences below.

Let me first say that an unwanted pregnancy is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. It's a decision between two negative choices. It's one of the most terrible situations in life that one can possible face, and it's better never to have to face it.

No one is really "pro-abortion". Abortion is a horrible and gruesome thing, but so is going through with an unwanted pregnancy. Both are terrible. The only real questions at stake for those involved here are: Which of the two negative choices is more tolerable for me? Which can I live with better? Which will have a lesser damaging effect on my life? Which is in my best interest?

You see, those involved in an unwanted pregnancy faces only two real choices:

1. Do something that most people feel is "wrong" by getting an abortion, feel guilty and sad about it for a few weeks, and then resume your normal life again afterward.
2. Go through with an unwanted pregnancy because others say "abortion is wrong". Then be forced to commit to a 20+ year unpaid job that you can't get out of, which will imprison you and takes away your freedom. And during the process, be leeched and drained of your time, energy, resources and emotions - essentially suffering 20+ years of regret and imprisonment.


A person faced with the dire decision above will NOT be concerned with "Which is the right morally correct choice?" They would be asking these key important questions:

Which of the two negative choices can I live with better? Which is more tolerable? Which would damage my life less? Which is better for my self-interest and goals?

And so would you! Anyone can preach morals, but when you are faced with those two dire choices, you will be thinking about the consequences to yourself, not the morals. Now if you KNOW that you absolutely CANNOT tolerate #2, then you might go with #1, regardless of the "morality" of it or condemnation from others (whose freedom is not at stake). So for you, #1 might be the more rational/logical choice. It's not a right or wrong issue. It's just a choice you have to make.

Now, one might realize that #1 is far more tolerable and manageable than #2. So by choosing #1, they would be making a rational/logical choice for themselves - not a moral one. Suppose you were a poor mom in a third world country who already had kids and you accidentally got pregnant again, and you knew that you could NOT afford to support another kid cause, and neither would you have the energy for it. Well in that case, choosing #1 might be a more rational choice for you that is best for all involved.

You see, when there are dire consequences at stake, not everyone cares about moral condemnation from others anyway. You can't expect everyone to make simple "morally correct" choices when there are serious, permanent and overwhelming consequences at stake. In reality, when survival, self-preservation and imprisonment comes into play, morals usually take a backseat. This is because our survival instinct is at the root of our behaviors. It is first and foremost in all living beings. Moral ethics, which were developed to allow humans to get along with others, are secondary. So it is irrational and unrealistic to expect that people will place morality and ethics above their survival instinct. You have to understand that.

That's why with the abortion issue, sometimes the survival instinct (or selfish instinct, whatever you want to call it) can kick in and take precedence over the moral issue. The universe does not live by a "moral code". If it did, nature would not set up an animal kingdom of predators and prey, or allow volcanoes, tsunamis and hurricanes to kill people, or allow disease to infect people and animals, etc.

Remember, God and Mother Nature have no morals either - about letting animals, insects and plants die every second, or allowing innocent people to suffer, or allowing good/innocent people to die young and evil people to thrive and prosper either. So there does not seem to be any objective "divine moral code" that governs all of creation. Morality is something that humans create, not some universal divine law that governs the universe.

Sometimes you gotta do what's best for you. As already explained, survival and self-preservation often takes precedent over "morally correct choices". It's not right or wrong; it's just reality. No one likes to admit that publicly, but it's true. There is no perfect world in which the best choices are always the morally correct ones.

I know that doesn't sound good. But you have to be realistic here. No one (at least not most people) can always make the morally correct choice in every decision and action. No one is a saint. But we are all hypocrites in that we hold others to the standards of a saint which we ourselves do not live up to. Everyone (at least most) has skeletons in the closet that would bring moral condemnation from others if exposed out in the open.

As the saying goes: "People do not like to do what's right. They like to TELL others to do what's right."

For example, let's take a hypothetical situation: Suppose Bill Gates accidentally deposited $500,000 into your bank account, and he never noticed it. Now, would you contact him and tell him about it, or would you think: "$500k to him is nothing. It's just pocket change to him. He'll never notice or care that he's missing that amount. I need it A LOT MORE than he does." Of course, publicly you might say that you'd report it because it's the "right and morally correct choice". But in REALITY and PRIVATELY, you KNOW you would probably keep it under the rationale and excuse: "I need this money more than he does. And besides, it was his mistake, not mine." Most people would probably do that, and never tell anyone about it of course. They would never post about it on a forum and try to debate the "morality" of it with others either, because they know that everyone would condemn them. Most of you KNOW that YOU WOULD just keep it, because in this scenario, your "survival instinct" would override your "moral instinct". The benefits and gains would overshadow the "moral ethics" (which bring you nothing), especially if you were badly in need of money. So stop pretending that you are all saints who hold other people to the standard of a saint. You are hypocrites and you know it!

Besides, most of you are also hypocrites for condoning the slaughter of cows, chickens and pigs, (and eating them) while condemning the slaughter of dogs and cats. And you are hypocrites for condoning hunters who shoot ducks and deer. Who are you to decide which life of which species is sacred and valuable, and which isn't? Should an advanced alien race have a right to eat you for food too? Just because you are human doesn't mean that human life is the most sacred thing in the objective universe. A higher more advanced race than you might think otherwise. There's simply no consistency in your thinking and moral standards.

If killing were morally wrong, then those who kill and eat animals would be punished by karma and universal retribution right away, wouldn't they? Yet many meat eaters live long and healthy lives. Why is that? If no "divine punishment" from God or karma comes down on those who kill and eat animals, why would it on those who do abortions?

If killing were ethically wrong and punishable by karma, then is your immune system guilty of killing all the harmful bacteria that it kills everyday? Should karma punish you and your immune system?

If killing was a sin punishable by karma or God, then how come George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, who started the Iraq War and killed over a million people, have gone unpunished by the universe, and are wealthier than ever? How come the US officials who started the Vietnam War lived long and healthy lives? How come Joseph Stalin, who killed more people than Hitler, lived to a ripe old age? Yet, Robert Kennedy, a man with great compassion for others, gets gunned down and dies young? Where is all the karmic retribution or divine justice in that?

If you are a man, every time you ejaculate, you kill thousands of sperm, even during sex. Does that make you a mass murderer? Should "divine punishment" come upon you for that? If you are a woman, every time you go through menstruation, you kill thousands of fertilized eggs. Does that make you a mass murderer? Should "divine punishment" befall you for that?

Where's the consistency?! If the actions above are not punished by some God or karma of "divine moral law", then why would those who do abortions be?

See this clip from a show by the late George Carlin where he makes these same arguments and ridicules the inconsistency of our "moral logic" and "sanctity of life":

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM[/youtube]

So you see, under casual scrutiny, the "moral logic" of most humans falls apart and is shown to be inconsistent, subjective, situational and relative. Human morality is not some "divine law" handed down by God. It is a code of ethics humans created to help ensure the survival and cooperation of our species. The "moral conscience" you have in your subconscious that makes you feel guilty when you do something wrong is not something that God put into you. It's the result of the moral behaviors and beliefs of all your ancestors that have become ingrained into your DNA. It's the same reason why a kitten is born with an expert instinct to catch mice, and a knowing of what it can eat and what it can't. It's the same way animals know that they are supposed to run from predators. God didn't teach them to. It's simply ingrained into their DNA as an instinct from the past behavior of their ancestors.

This is why our survival instinct tends to override our moral instinct. Our need to survive comes first and foremost. It is the root instinct of all life and comes before all other instincts. It also precedes any "moral code" we develop to get along with others. So naturally, when survival and morals come into conflict, we will choose survival. As the saying goes, "One can only have morals if one can afford them."

Finally, don't you don't think forcing a woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy is cruel? Think about that. A man can just run away from an unwanted pregnancy, but a woman is stuck with the child. An unwanted pregnancy forces the parent to endure 20 years of an unpaid job in which she loses all her freedom and becomes enslaved to another. Would you like someone forcing that upon you?

So I hope you see now that this abortion issue is not a simple matter of black and white ethics, but a complex issue that involves a lot more than basic morality. I hope these points help you to see it from a larger perspective, so that you can show some sympathy, understanding and rationality in the matter.

Thank you for reading. You may now switch your "moral righteousness and ethical prejudices" back on (if you really turned it off that is).

Addendum: A Few Subpoints

- Outlawing abortion is a stupid thing. Women who are intent on having abortions will resort to try more dangerous and unsafe underground ways of getting it. If they are going to do it, it should be done safely at least. Nowadays, if they do it early, they only have to take a series of pills such as RU486.

- Science and the Journal of Geriatrics say that a fetus is not a sentient being. It has no mind, thoughts or consciousness. You can look this up.

- Christian pro-lifers lie when they say that abortion is dangerous. In reality, childbirth is far more dangerous and results in far more deaths than abortion does. But of course, they don't want you to know that because it doesn't support their side.
Last edited by Winston on Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mercurymarch » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:33 pm

Winston wrote:- Science and the Journal of Geriatrics say that a fetus is not a sentient being. It has no mind, thoughts or consciousness. You can look this up.


This part of your argument is fatally flawed. You are using an appeal to authority to support your claim that a fetus is not conscious.

Consciousness cannot be studied objectively because it is subjective. Correlates to consciousness can be studied directly, but studying consciousness itself directly is outside the bounds of science, and will always be.
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Postby Winston » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:14 am

mercurymarch wrote:
Winston wrote:- Science and the Journal of Geriatrics say that a fetus is not a sentient being. It has no mind, thoughts or consciousness. You can look this up.


This part of your argument is fatally flawed. You are using an appeal to authority to support your claim that a fetus is not conscious.

Consciousness cannot be studied objectively because it is subjective. Correlates to consciousness can be studied directly, but studying consciousness itself directly is outside the bounds of science, and will always be.


I'm not saying that science is right about this. I'm just saying that that is its position. It's just something to consider. Yeah there are many mysteries about consciousness. I'm just telling you what the scientific view is. I'm not arguing that it's the correct one.
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Postby ErikHeaven » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:31 am

I am an atheist so there is no proof of a god and there is no sin whatsover so abortion has no meaning to me really. I do think that African American women have done it too much with the resulting high loss of our populations. Yet it has been done for as long as we have been here and will continue long after we are gone.
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Postby odbo » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:32 am

Moral relativism is making us psychopathic. Abortion is wrong. You know, "Thou shalt not kill."

That might be inconvenient but people don't make the rules. What is wrong with dropping the baby off at an orphanage? Modern generations need to "think" less and do what's right more. So what if the child hunts you down 20 years later, that's only an "uncomfortable" situation if you're a disingenuous person. If you're down to earth it's an experience you would be glad to have. If you want uncomfortable, what about the guilt of an abortion. Also there are studies showing that abortions greatly increase the risk of breast cancer. "Karma's a bitch" as they say.

A person getting an abortion is much the same as a person eating meat. They disassociate and block out what's really going on. They're cowards who want to have their cake and eat it too. If you're going to have an abortion you might as well admit to yourself that it's murder. But if people did that, most wouldn't have the abortion, (just like most wouldn't eat meat). :|
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Postby jamesbond » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:45 am

odbo wrote:Moral relativism is making us psychopathic. Abortion is wrong. You know, "Thou shalt not kill."

That might be inconvenient but people don't make the rules. What is wrong with dropping the baby off at an orphanage? Modern generations need to "think" less and do what's right more. So what if the child hunts you down 20 years later, that's only an "uncomfortable" situation if you're a disingenuous person. If you're down to earth it's an experience you would be glad to have. If you want uncomfortable, what about the guilt of an abortion. Also there are studies showing that abortions greatly increase the risk of breast cancer. "Karma's a bitch" as they say.

A person getting an abortion is much the same as a person eating meat. They disassociate and block out what's really going on. They're cowards who want to have their cake and eat it too. If you're going to have an abortion you might as well admit to yourself that it's murder. But if people did that, most wouldn't have the abortion, (just like most wouldn't eat meat). :|

I wonder if all these people who think abortion is ok, would feel the same way if their mother aborted them, or aborted one of their siblings. :shock:

Feminism brought us abortion and now some feminists want abortions up to the ninth month of pregnancy! :shock:
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Postby Winston » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:04 pm

Jeygonza wrote:Lol that's so funny you've declared you are a murder.


Well I've declared you as a murderer too. When you have your monthly period, you kill thousands of fertilized eggs. Are you a mass murderer for that? Those fertilized eggs are living beings too. So technically, you can be called a murderer too. So what's the point? You are small minded with total black and white simplistic thinking.
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Postby Winston » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:11 pm

jamesbond wrote:
odbo wrote:Moral relativism is making us psychopathic. Abortion is wrong. You know, "Thou shalt not kill."

That might be inconvenient but people don't make the rules. What is wrong with dropping the baby off at an orphanage? Modern generations need to "think" less and do what's right more. So what if the child hunts you down 20 years later, that's only an "uncomfortable" situation if you're a disingenuous person. If you're down to earth it's an experience you would be glad to have. If you want uncomfortable, what about the guilt of an abortion. Also there are studies showing that abortions greatly increase the risk of breast cancer. "Karma's a bitch" as they say.

A person getting an abortion is much the same as a person eating meat. They disassociate and block out what's really going on. They're cowards who want to have their cake and eat it too. If you're going to have an abortion you might as well admit to yourself that it's murder. But if people did that, most wouldn't have the abortion, (just like most wouldn't eat meat). :|


I wonder if all these people who think abortion is ok, would feel the same way if their mother aborted them, or aborted one of their siblings. :shock:

Feminism brought us abortion and now some feminists want abortions up to the ninth month of pregnancy! :shock:


They wouldn't because if they were aborted, they would never have existed to think anything about it. Or they would have reincarnated into another body, or they would have remained in the pre-birth dimension, wherever it is.

A baby in the 9th month is already conscious, so it would be cruel to abort then.

Forcing a woman to go through with an unwanted baby is cruel too.

Odbo, you lack common sense. Ask any woman why they can't just have a baby and give it up for adoption. It's not that simple. Don't ask me to explain why. But it's not. You are naive.

Abortion does not increase breast cancer. That is Christian propaganda. What about the fact that far more women die from childbirth? Childbirth is far more dangerous than abortion. So should we eliminate that too?
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Postby odbo » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:15 am

Winston wrote:When you have your monthly period, you kill thousands of fertilized eggs. Are you a mass murderer for that? Those fertilized eggs are living beings too. So technically, you can be called a murderer too. So what's the point? You are small minded with total black and white simplistic thinking.

People who have common sense are not small minded. It is you who is deceived. You have received liberal education designed to drown out any instincts you were born with and over-rule any wisdom you might have received from your parents and traditional culture. Your idiotic argumentation is evidence of that. You cannot see what you're doing wrong because you've only ever been shown one perspective. Science and spirituality once went hand in hand, but the psychopaths running things have divorced them. I'll try to fully debunk this later, this topic is a monumental mindfuck. In any case yours is not a natural stance by any means. You have been educated to view things like this, and right and wrong can't originate from schooling.
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Postby adria2789 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:29 pm

Winston wrote:
Jeygonza wrote:Lol that's so funny you've declared you are a murder.


Well I've declared you as a murderer too. When you have your monthly period, you kill thousands of fertilized eggs. Are you a mass murderer for that? Those fertilized eggs are living beings too. So technically, you can be called a murderer too. So what's the point? You are small minded with total black and white simplistic thinking.


I think Jeygonza meant it in a jokingly manner

@Winston: Women do not kill thousands of fertilized eggs during their monthly period. :lol: A fertilized egg is fertilized by sperm. When a woman has her period, her body is dismantling a unfertilized egg untouched by sperm.
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