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Is Online Dating Ruining Dating for Average Guys?

Discuss and talk about any general topic.

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Postby All_That_Is_Man » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:59 pm

davewe wrote:I think the point is most men in the first world are wasting their time in online dating - period, regardless of car, job, status or even good looks. An average looking woman online gets so much attention that she's quickly spoiled and comes to believe she "deserves" the Brad Pitt lookalike.

It's really not a hard concept. If you are fishing in a pond with few decent fish to catch you can do one of two things: spends thousands of dollars on the top equipment and guides, as well as hundreds of hours scouring the stream; or find a better fishing hole. Isn't that why we're all on HA?


I consider myself a very "above average" guy in terms of good looks, and I agree that online dating sites in the west are still a waste of time. When I lived in a college town back in 2007-2008, those sites worked like a charm. I was getting more dates in 2007 than I had my entire life - and from various different women, too! Region is very important to finding success with online dating. I was in Tempe, AZ's college town and there are plenty of women online who'll date you. Fast forward to the cold, narrow-minded midwest, and now women have unrealistic standards about who they will meet for coffee ("must live in the city", "must have a job (no, not owning a business - you must be a miserable pawn with a boss)", "must be white", "if you are male, I'm deleting you", etc). And the quality and physical value of the women have significantly declined as well; my later few dates using online sites have been some of the ugliest beasts I've ever encountered, contrary to their professional mugshots online.

I know we deserve better than anything western women have to offer. I'm disgusted by the midwest as the women here get colder and colder (and yes, I'm above average in looks), and they're only nice to you or lead you on when they are already married or involved. The odds here are against us, and in the few short years that I have started dating, it seems that western women have become misandric and completely toxic - labeling any man who talks to them as "creepy", "rapist", "criminal", "awkward" - and never giving them a second thought. Online women will often change their story, just to avoid you. If her profile says she's looking for a relationship, and you contact her with the same intention in mind, guess what? - "I've been really busy with work, and I don't have time to meet new people for a relationship." If her profile says she's looking for play partners (i.e. sex), and you contact her with the same intention in mind, guess what? - "I can do sex, but it's not enough." To put it bluntly, anything that makes you compatible with an America woman, she will disrupt that by saying she's the polar opposite. Ask yourself: Is playing these no-win, feeble mind games really worth the company of an American woman, when you can be abroad in eastern Europe, or Brazil, or the Philippine Islands right now getting any women you want?

I believe the stories of men who were lost in the femisphere west, just like we are right now, whom have moved to different regions abroad and have no trouble getting foreign women who are more feminine, more sexual, more fit, younger, and friendlier than any American woman we've ever known. I have a feeling that when I leave the midwest (yes, even if I stay in America), that my dating options will be significant better than what I've been accustomed to in the past three years, however my ultimate goal is leaving America. It's a wrap.
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Postby OzGuy » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:54 pm

All_That_Is_Man wrote:
I consider myself a very "above average" guy in terms of good looks, and I agree that online dating sites in the west are still a waste of time. When I lived in a college town back in 2007-2008, those sites worked like a charm. I was getting more dates in 2007 than I had my entire life - and from various different women, too! Region is very important to finding success with online dating. I was in Tempe, AZ's college town and there are plenty of women online who'll date you. Fast forward to the cold, narrow-minded midwest, and now women have unrealistic standards about who they will meet for coffee ("must live in the city", "must have a job (no, not owning a business - you must be a miserable pawn with a boss)", "must be white", "if you are male, I'm deleting you", etc). And the quality and physical value of the women have significantly declined as well; my later few dates using online sites have been some of the ugliest beasts I've ever encountered, contrary to their professional mugshots online.


You just described profiles of Australian women perfectly. Except you missed out "must own a car". The irony being that most of these girls don't even have a car themselves! I don't even bother with dating sites here anymore, because so many of them have "must have" lists. Most girls won't even think twice about dating you if you're in between jobs or studying, yet most of them do that themselves.

I know we deserve better than anything western women have to offer. I'm disgusted by the midwest as the women here get colder and colder (and yes, I'm above average in looks), and they're only nice to you or lead you on when they are already married or involved. The odds here are against us, and in the few short years that I have started dating, it seems that western women have become misandric and completely toxic - labeling any man who talks to them as "creepy", "rapist", "criminal", "awkward" - and never giving them a second thought. Online women will often change their story, just to avoid you. If her profile says she's looking for a relationship, and you contact her with the same intention in mind, guess what? - "I've been really busy with work, and I don't have time to meet new people for a relationship." If her profile says she's looking for play partners (i.e. sex), and you contact her with the same intention in mind, guess what? - "I can do sex, but it's not enough." To put it bluntly, anything that makes you compatible with an America woman, she will disrupt that by saying she's the polar opposite. Ask yourself: Is playing these no-win, feeble mind games really worth the company of an American woman, when you can be abroad in eastern Europe, or Brazil, or the Philippine Islands right now getting any women you want?


Again, its exactly the same with Australian women. So often I see that they want a relationship in the "seeking" options, yet when you actually ask them if they are interested in a relationship they will say some crap like "i'm only after friends first" or "i'm a bit busy with work" etc. You know why they do this? Because they have hundreds of options available to them, so they don't want to commit to dating one guy. The translation for this is basically "well I have hundreds of other options, so you'll be on the waiting list for now. If I can't find anyone better then i'll consider dating you".

And yes, i'm sick of girls calling all men "creeps". If you approach a woman (even in a friendly way) then you're automatically a creep.
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Postby All_That_Is_Man » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:05 am

OzGuy wrote:
All_That_Is_Man wrote:
I consider myself a very "above average" guy in terms of good looks, and I agree that online dating sites in the west are still a waste of time. When I lived in a college town back in 2007-2008, those sites worked like a charm. I was getting more dates in 2007 than I had my entire life - and from various different women, too! Region is very important to finding success with online dating. I was in Tempe, AZ's college town and there are plenty of women online who'll date you. Fast forward to the cold, narrow-minded midwest, and now women have unrealistic standards about who they will meet for coffee ("must live in the city", "must have a job (no, not owning a business - you must be a miserable pawn with a boss)", "must be white", "if you are male, I'm deleting you", etc). And the quality and physical value of the women have significantly declined as well; my later few dates using online sites have been some of the ugliest beasts I've ever encountered, contrary to their professional mugshots online.


You just described profiles of Australian women perfectly. Except you missed out "must own a car". The irony being that most of these girls don't even have a car themselves! I don't even bother with dating sites here anymore, because so many of them have "must have" lists. Most girls won't even think twice about dating you if you're in between jobs or studying, yet most of them do that themselves.


So, immediately off the bat, western men are discriminated for where we live, how much money we make, the color of our skin, being born with a penis, our passion for education, AND our choice of transportation. All the more reason go abroad and meet real women face-to-face.

OzGuy wrote:
All_That_Is_Man wrote:I know we deserve better than anything western women have to offer. I'm disgusted by the midwest as the women here get colder and colder (and yes, I'm above average in looks), and they're only nice to you or lead you on when they are already married or involved. The odds here are against us, and in the few short years that I have started dating, it seems that western women have become misandric and completely toxic - labeling any man who talks to them as "creepy", "rapist", "criminal", "awkward" - and never giving them a second thought. Online women will often change their story, just to avoid you. If her profile says she's looking for a relationship, and you contact her with the same intention in mind, guess what? - "I've been really busy with work, and I don't have time to meet new people for a relationship." If her profile says she's looking for play partners (i.e. sex), and you contact her with the same intention in mind, guess what? - "I can do sex, but it's not enough." To put it bluntly, anything that makes you compatible with an America woman, she will disrupt that by saying she's the polar opposite. Ask yourself: Is playing these no-win, feeble mind games really worth the company of an American woman, when you can be abroad in eastern Europe, or Brazil, or the Philippine Islands right now getting any women you want?


Again, its exactly the same with Australian women. So often I see that they want a relationship in the "seeking" options, yet when you actually ask them if they are interested in a relationship they will say some crap like "i'm only after friends first" or "i'm a bit busy with work" etc. You know why they do this? Because they have hundreds of options available to them, so they don't want to commit to dating one guy. The translation for this is basically "well I have hundreds of other options, so you'll be on the waiting list for now. If I can't find anyone better then i'll consider dating you".

And yes, i'm sick of girls calling all men "creeps". If you approach a woman (even in a friendly way) then you're automatically a creep.


Whatever their reason for "not having time" for exactly what it is they wanted in the first place, doesn't really matter to me. American women can't provide anything that I want anymore - and online is just the bottom of the barrel.

As far as being called "creep", just avoid American women in general. I've had so many random encounters with American women who I thought were just friends, who then turned around and labeled me "creepy" or "rapist" just for asking if they wanted to meet up for a movie or hang out. Don't forget, western women's only value is having a vagina. They can't bring anything of quality or substance to the table. We simply don't need their shit.

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Postby ExpeditionSailor » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:38 am

Online dating hasn't merely ruined things for average men, it has completely destroyed them. I look forward to the day when ALL Western men wake up and realize just how badly they are being treated, and they take the reality to heart and opt out of having anything to do with Western women, period. Women will not change until the supply of easy sex and easy money dries up, and feminism disappears. But I'm afraid I'm in for a long wait because so many men have become manginas and will not take action.
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Postby jamesbond » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:30 am

ExpeditionSailor wrote:Online dating hasn't merely ruined things for average men, it has completely destroyed them. I look forward to the day when ALL Western men wake up and realize just how badly they are being treated, and they take the reality to heart and opt out of having anything to do with Western women, period. Women will not change until the supply of easy sex and easy money dries up, and feminism disappears. But I'm afraid I'm in for a long wait because so many men have become manginas and will not take action.

Your right about online dating. Before online dating came onto the scene, women did not have as many choices as they do today.

Today, not only can a woman get lot's of guys to ask her out at bars and clubs, she can place an online dating profile and get hundreds of guys a week responding to her! :shock:

No wonder why women in anglo-countries are so damn picky about what guys they date, they have a whole bunch of guys to choose from. The more choices a woman has, the pickier she is going to be!
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Postby djfourmoney » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:54 pm

I don't have the time to reply ATM. However I will be making full tilt reply soon. There is a grand disconnect going on here and its ruining your chance at happiness and f***ing up your wallet all at the same time.
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Postby djfourmoney » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:08 am

Okay -

The grand disconnect happening is that, let's face it AW are not all that into you. Its very RARE that AW marry DOWN and let's face it, most AM are DOWN. Unemployed, struggling with debt and lost importance in the economy as a whole - http://rdwolff.com/content/what-capitalism-delivers

Listen to that podcast.

So why you still wasting time online (on American sites) when its been proven you only get about 10% response rate IF that? Women of all stripes are concerned with two things mostly when considering a man. Will you make enough money to support a family and not depend on the Government and that as a family you will live better than your parents did.

This is why women almost the world over DON'T MARRY DOWN. Put another way, if you struggle in your own country to survive, how you going to stay in your home country and not drop into at least into limbo between poverty and working poor? This is a question they will ask in a round-about way, never directly. Figuring on needing to add about 15-25% to your income to handle a second person, never mind KID(S).

So why are we huffying and puffing about AW and American Dating sites? Well I know that answer too.

As somebody told Bill Clinton - "Its the economy stupid..."

I'm fairly sure none of the posters here are in the 50K or more bracket. If you were, you wouldn't be posting here unless you looked like Shriek or you're short like Danny Devito or your completely thumbs around women (no game, gift of gab, etc).

If its a physical problem like being ugly or short (or both), not much we can say here that will help other than to keep trying, comb over, loose weight, do whatever to improve your stock. What people see first is the wrapper, I think we can stop kidding ourselves here. There is some margin for error however, so keep that in mind.

If you lack Game (or in somebody's case play games too often, socially inept), the PUA might help but I would recommend against it.

Now that we got that out of the way, let's get to the MEAT of the issue shall we?

Its YOUR MONEY STUPID or lack there of. It cost roughly $1,000 to go to Colombia on a bride tour. It cost $2K-4K to either Asia, SEA or Eastern Europe.

The main advantage of doing this is you'll meet more seriously minded women in one setting than you could on your own likely in 6 months.

So why aren't more doing it? Pier Pressure is one, plain old economics is another and I'll explain why in a second.

Pier Pressure should be ignored and it should be easy, unless you seek approval for everything you do. If you do, you should seek some help...

I think the #1 reason why men don't go in droves is M-O-N-E-Y.

How many of you have student debt? Its likely you can't afford to go, right?

How many of you live on less than $15 an hour?

The image gets clearer doesn't it...

So how do you overcome this? If I have to explain it again you never read my post, so I suggest you read any of my post where I explain how I make my money, tax free, only a few hours out of my day twice a week, 8-9 times a month.

That means if the rest of you (save for students) work even part time, you have an economic advantage over me.

If that's so, how come I am planning a DIY Mission to find a wife and the rest of you complain about how your chances of dating are f***ed up? This is almost like Black Men wishing Black Women would turn the corner. In that case all that means is that as I have said before, a MAJORITY OF BLACK MEN MARRY BLACK WOMEN, its not even CLOSE, so deep down they want to marry American, Native English Speaking Black Women. This is why they plead with them to look at the error of their co-occupation by the largely White Women's movement known as Feminism in this country (and in Anglo Culture in general).

Good Luck with that one, you have lost. There is no winning them back without a social or economic advantage and since Black Men on average make .68 (women .77 on average) to what White Men make, while White Men's importance in the economy is being shrunk at the same time, its a RACE TO THE BOTTOM economically.

You can "force" them to want to date you if say 2 out of every 10 new marriages is Interracial to a man's advantage ie marrying a NON-BLACK WOMAN. They already FALSELY believe they are under attack from non-Black Women stealing their men. If they only understood and that's how a child would react anyway, moving on...

If you don't want to take the easy way to make money, then do it the hard way. You'll make more that's for sure but I have one TRUMP card you can't play = Unlimited Time Off.

One of the reasons I haven't pursued work is that everybody universally agrees that the key to finding women overseas is to spend time with them in their home country. Hard to do when the average American has two weeks paid vacation.... Makes it even hard to justify spending who knows how much to fly to another country when you're not positive how the women will react to you.

All I can say is if you're White, it largely doesn't matter where you search. If you're Asian, my advice is to forget White Women period, unless you happen to be taller than average, in-shape, dare I say in excellent physical shape and make a fair amount of money. These are the Asian Men I see with attractive White Women. If that's not you, then just be that Western Asian guy that most Asian women would be happy with anyway.

For my brothers (Black Men) it largely doesn't matter either. But some places are easier than others and you can only find that out by experience and research. Since I can't afford to double down on my quest, I am going with a known quantity = Western/Eastern Europe.

The only thing I haven't figured out is if I should use a local agency when I get there. The goal is to stay at least 30 days, if not longer, much longer. Possibly enough to qualify for a residency status, we shall see.

This will work, even if I make some compromises and frankly I don't care. As long as she's not an ugly evil b*tch that nobody can stand (unlikely to happen) I am not worried about it.

I will not make the mistake I did last time and I will not come home empty handed. This is why I am getting into tip-top shape, currently benching about 100lbs 12x3 and 35lbs in each hand (hammer curls, 12x3). I can also leg press 420lbs 12x3 and only have about 10lbs more to loose. I want to put my best foot forward, look my best and feel my best. I don't need game (and neither do you if you're serious about getting married, that shit is for serial daters) just be truthful with what and who you are.

I am with Phx, let's stop the bitching and get to the solutions. I know the solution its to get out from in front of your PC, make a plan and execute.



http://europeandreamconnections.com/7-m ... -overseas/
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Postby E_Irizarry » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:02 pm

@DJ IV Money,

You should clean up your spelling in that last post before The Arab comes here and tears you a new one, dude.
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Postby ph_visitor » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:13 pm

Thing about The Internet, and guys finding new hunting grounds, is that you f**k the women up and they end up as the OP describes.

Like Moldova was a 'fresh hunting ground' a few years ago.

Well, now after the socio-paths, liars and players have clear cut the local talent and turned them into bitter, hateful, distrusting Americanised Women, they don't respond as well to 'Game'.

As All_That_Is_Man described in 2007 it worked well in Tempe, but then 4 years later the women have adjusted (which is what women have done for 12,000 years) and now it no longer works.

Duh.

If you lie and manipulate and f**k over a chyck to get into her pants, all that you are doing (all of you) is f***ing these women - all women - up so that they are unworthy girlfriends lovers and wives of the future.

Well, that's the world we live in now. In most nations women have been gamed due to the Internet and now none of them are worthy, anywhere.
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Postby lavezzi » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:02 pm

ph_visitor wrote:Thing about The Internet, and guys finding new hunting grounds, is that you f**k the women up and they end up as the OP describes.

Like Moldova was a 'fresh hunting ground' a few years ago.

Well, now after the socio-paths, liars and players have clear cut the local talent and turned them into bitter, hateful, distrusting Americanised Women, they don't respond as well to 'Game'.

As All_That_Is_Man described in 2007 it worked well in Tempe, but then 4 years later the women have adjusted (which is what women have done for 12,000 years) and now it no longer works.

Duh.

If you lie and manipulate and f**k over a chyck to get into her pants, all that you are doing (all of you) is f***ing these women - all women - up so that they are unworthy girlfriends lovers and wives of the future.

Well, that's the world we live in now. In most nations women have been gamed due to the Internet and now none of them are worthy, anywhere.


Yes, it seems the never-ending sexual appetite of these narcissists is spoiling things for the those of us who actually view foreign women as something other than a more easily accessible vagina. The fact that they don't just have their fun with prostitutes and need to "game" foreign women for sex reveals their immoderate egoism. Now us 'true' guys are left to seethe through 1000's of scammers in popular locations or venture into more unusual areas at our own risk which are unscathed but far more dangerous.
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Postby djfourmoney » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:26 pm

ph_visitor wrote:Thing about The Internet, and guys finding new hunting grounds, is that you f**k the women up and they end up as the OP describes.

Like Moldova was a 'fresh hunting ground' a few years ago.

Well, now after the socio-paths, liars and players have clear cut the local talent and turned them into bitter, hateful, distrusting Americanised Women, they don't respond as well to 'Game'.

As All_That_Is_Man described in 2007 it worked well in Tempe, but then 4 years later the women have adjusted (which is what women have done for 12,000 years) and now it no longer works.

Duh.

If you lie and manipulate and f**k over a chyck to get into her pants, all that you are doing (all of you) is f***ing these women - all women - up so that they are unworthy girlfriends lovers and wives of the future.

Well, that's the world we live in now. In most nations women have been gamed due to the Internet and now none of them are worthy, anywhere.



You are right and this is the rub I have with web sites International Sex Guide and World Sex Guide. How can they be astonished at the behavior of women after a decade or so of treating some developing country as an adult playground?

Serial daters who are often thought of as Alpha Males are never fingered for their involvement in ruining a market. They believe its a man's right of passage to defoliate a country ahead of the "Beta" Males who will come often on the downward slope of popularity and take care of the children they (Alpha's) fathered.

Moldova while still not often thought of by most people is an area of opportunity.

Kiev, Ukraine by some accounts is actually worst off by relaxing its visa requirements. I hear stories of random women being accosted by middle aged White Men looking for sexual favors and is willing to pay top dollar. Then people are shocked when some women actually take them up on these offers. After all a weekend of f***ing some guy you'll never see again as long as he doesn't get you pregnant while making a month's pay does sound attractive to some women.

Kiev being treated as a sex tourist destination is subject of much debate in Kiev if you bother to look for it.

That said, you can still find women to marry. The women targeted by mongers are in their early 20's. So if you're willing to start your search around 25, you'll still find somebody.

Women about 30, with a child are especially ignored...

This is sort of what I mean by compromise. I believe I have a few things working for me.

So all cards are on the table. The only restrictions really are she be under 35 and over 18, ideally at least 21.

I am 41, by the time I make my trip I'll be 42. Mark was 42 when he met Anna who was 19 at the time. While these sorts of relationships are a bit rare and not encouraged by anybody, its still possible. There is no such thing as too young, many women between 18-21 who didn't get a college/university education are looking for the emotional and financial stability an older man can provide.

Listen to Anna's story...

What I find so appealing about Mark and Anna's story is that in most cases, Mark would be seen as a two time looser with grown children from those relationships. He speaks to this issue in his book that details what happen back in the dating pool in his late 30's after his second divorce. On top of that, a few years after the We Channel interview, Mark found himself out of a job as the Financial Crisis hit his family. They relocated to Southern California and he started EC, there you go.

While most AW as the statistics prove would have jumped ship, Anna took ownership of these realities and supported her family.

Mongers have made it harder, no question, but if you don't try you'll never succeed. Its easy to sit in your chair in front of your PC and say its too tall a task to accomplish.

It will be much harder to peg women between 18-25 where women offer the best ROI. If you're serious about a long term relationship I would start no younger than 25 but keep your options open. I've said this thousand times it seems, but while older women (over 30) can still have children, many women are ambivalent by then, especially if they have a child already.

As the saying goes, your age, by half, plus 7. (27.5) but reality as young as 22 is more than possible.

Make a plan and go.
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Postby djfourmoney » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:33 pm

E_Irizarry wrote:@DJ IV Money,

You should clean up your spelling in that last post before The Arab comes here and tears you a new one, dude.


Eh, if Google didn't pick it up..... Otherwise you'll have to point out what's misspelled (I've re-read it twice...). I never said spelling was my strong suit and while I have gotten better over the years, its still not that great.

Word Processors and Google Chrome (even Firefox to a point) help point out errors. People that believe this makes us lazy is full of shit, you still have to spell things right otherwise even the processor or browsers won't pick it up to point out.

But as with all things, improvements will continue.
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Postby aozora13 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:55 pm

djfourmoney good post. I think about finding a woman. Unfortunately, I have tried to think of another option as I have to return to the US late May. I am still trying one run to get a visa. It is difficult for many to find sponsored work in Europe unless they are willing to help you. Even with high skilled employees, most companies have to see the reason to why they are hiring you.

I think that if a guy is serious about finding a woman, he can do it. US is just not the place to find a good minded woman. I have friends who have married. A Filipino who has married a Chinese girl in the US. She is a eccentric, however, I know that she really loves him. However, most Asian marriages stay in tact. Now, I think that most guys should be more positive. We are on this forum to get advice. Online dating in the US is horrible. The best option is to maybe try one of the tours to find good minded women who want marriage and a family.
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Postby djfourmoney » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:10 am

aozora13 wrote:djfourmoney good post. I think about finding a woman. Unfortunately, I have tried to think of another option as I have to return to the US late May. I am still trying one run to get a visa. It is difficult for many to find sponsored work in Europe unless they are willing to help you. Even with high skilled employees, most companies have to see the reason to why they are hiring you.

I think that if a guy is serious about finding a woman, he can do it. US is just not the place to find a good minded woman. I have friends who have married. A Filipino who has married a Chinese girl in the US. She is a eccentric, however, I know that she really loves him. However, most Asian marriages stay in tact. Now, I think that most guys should be more positive. We are on this forum to get advice. Online dating in the US is horrible. The best option is to maybe try one of the tours to find good minded women who want marriage and a family.


But my point is -

If you can't afford a tour ($1K-$5K) then what?

That is the challenge.

In your case, you're returning from Europe because your Visa has ran out. While that is the right thing to do, it proves its difficult to focus on the task at hand. You wanted to get work experience, excellent. Now your next course of action should be to determine just what do you want more: Money or A Family? Since you have experience, I would say use that to work really hard for a year and save a majority of your money. Then quit and yes I know that sounds crazy but in a largely jobless recovery ATM it largely doesn't matter.

Take half and make some long term investments. Take the other half and go find a wife.... You can forget the tours if you want. You can go directly to the source.

In most of the other people's cases its stop making excuses about your job, lack of money and all the other things mostly AW are interested in and focus on. I am not talking about White Knight stuff, but seriously you more than likely make more money than they do, you just have less paid time off and minimal health care coverage.

The problem with making that suggestion is that there other parties that believe you should strike out on your own and make yourself successful and then women will come because of your success.

Hang on, wait a minute! Isn't this what we're trying to avoid????
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Postby OzGuy » Wed May 16, 2012 9:34 pm

Absolutely.

I now strongly believe that online dating corrupts women, EVEN foreign women.

Once they get a taste of hundreds of guys perusing them they no longer think they need to make an effort. They then extend this into the real world. As a result, they never make an effort to initiate conversation and it becomes one sided.

Things never used to be this hard back in the 90's before online dating. Even Anglo women used to be easier to date back then.

Your best bet is to meet a woman who has never tried online dating before.
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