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People into PUA, I think, tend to have psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies, because the whole art of PUA is being cold, calculating and manipulative.

Normal guys seek natural genuine connection with women (aka love/chemistry). But PUA types seem incapable of having genuine natural connection with women, so they have to resort to manipulation, mind control and brainwashing techniques.

This seems psychopathic in nature. It is the stuff of con artists and slick salesmen without a conscience.

What do you think?

it depends what you define what a "PUA" is

if you approach solely just to meet new people, that's not sociopathic at all

if you approach just to manipulate people, then maybe

from my experience, most PUAs(in the lair) are nerds. The only sociopaths are the guys teaching it(who want money from people)

Hey Winston,

thanks for sending this article via email. I have a few thoughts about the PUA industry....

People into PUA, I think, tend to have psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies, because the whole art of PUA is being cold, calculating and manipulative.

I don't agree with this so much because I was a PUA student for some time (I was never a teacher...).
From what I saw most guys who attended seminars or studied it are just normal people who want to get a girlfriend or have more choice with women. But since women give regular\normal guys cold shoulders or ignore them- they don't see any other way of getting women or getting women to respond to them.

Normal guys seek natural genuine connection with women (aka love/chemistry). But PUA types seem incapable of having genuine natural connection with women, so they have to resort to manipulation, mind control and brainwashing techniques.

true but most women don't give normal guys the time and day. When I say 'normal' I mean if a dude is not super confident or rich or very good looking (although this also doesn't always help):

he will just be ignored by women.

So the normal guys resort to PUA because they see that normal guys like them can still get women with PUA stuff.

Of course not all PUA stuff is good and some of it requires a lot of work-
but it's better than nothing.

let's face it: for women (even the less attractive ones) getting a guy is a choice, for guys getting a woman is a chore (if he is not super good looking, super confident or rich).

Of course there is always the other option:

to save money and go abroad instead of wasting a lot of time and money to get bitchy\snobby women to respond...

I think more guys should aim for this instead of trying too hard to get snobby\bitchy western women.

as far as sex: if you are in the west sometimes it's cheaper to just get a hooker than to spend your time and money on bars and clubs to try and get some.

Another point:

PUA in general (not all of it...) made women even more bitchy\snobby.

Instead of teaching guys to ignore women and be real men- they teach guys to chase women and try to get their attention (DHV, NEGS, Push\pull and etc..)

I personally just ignore bitchy women instead wasting my time DHVing or NEGing them.

Here is what my retired psychologist friend told me about this question:

Winston,

I think that some PUA's definitely fit into this category, as do some lawyers, stockbrokers, used car salesmen, corporate CEO's and many other professions where opportunity to "fleece" and take advantage of others is prevalent. I think more of the sociopaths are to be found at the upper levels--some of the guys teaching this stuff are the worst and have the least conscience. Who would charge $3000 for a weekend bootcamp if they had any morals? This is an outrageous price!!!!. I think a lot of the PUA students are taught this sociopathic mind frame but are not true sociopaths. The actual percentage of Sociopaths in population is not all that high and the actual percentage of socialized ones (those who are not criminals in and out of prison) is much lower. So, I do not see this as an "across-the-board" description of all PUA's but no doubt some of the major teachers in the game and some of the players are sociopaths. I think PUA attracts a lot of men who have no skills with women and takes advantage of many of these men by bleeding them of their money and promising results that simply aren't possible or realistic.

I'm reading a book about Neurolinguistic Programming. Meh. I don't like these concepts. But people who love PUA techniques will probably love this kind of stuff as well.

PUA-stuff is mainstream now. This also means that many women are aware of them.

In general I think that most PUAs or "wanna-be PUAs" are just regular guys who haven't been very successful with women. PUA techniques don't make anyone "bad" or "**path".

My old college buddy got really into PUA and is still working it at 30 years old. He's not psycho, he's just another nerdy socially awkward engineer like me. You see, we're these certian personality types who never had the "natural" charisma to sprout dates/relationships the way "normal" people do. Many of us also simply missed out on the adolescent dating scene and found ourselves in the adult world with absolutely no social skills. I took the Myers-Briggs personality test and found out that I'm an INTJ. I see the world differently from other people: I think, socialize and make decisions in an analytical, structured, statistics-driven manner. Most guys who are naturally good with women are the opposite of this: extroverted, organic, in tune with other people's senses/emotions, etc. Personally, I never really got into PUA because I've always been very religious and altruistic in my approach to life and the crass-ness, contrived-ness and downright immorality of PUA flies in the face of that sort of world view. I've taken the honest (and harder) road, focusing on genuine ways to meet women and develop myself into a mature, attractive, date-able man. Hope that sort of helped answer your question about why some young men resort to PUA.

PUA is not for psychopaths and sociopaths. I think your other posters have already said that it helps shy guys who don't have social skills to be a little more outgoing. Winston you are very outgoing so you don't need it, but most people are not like you. I missed the whole PUA movement because I was in a relationship or overseas. I am now reading the stuff because I'm just interested. There are a few good things you can learn. It is motivational and will get you fired up to go out!

It is no more sociopaths or psychopathic than you selling your dating sites full of sweet, innocent, family oriented, marriage minded foreign women! Less than one percent of the women on these sites fits that bill and one percent of the guys that try PUA get real successful from it!

It's ironic that Jezebel.com rips on you but you share the same sentiments as the writers of that site about the PUA world.

PUA is like learning The Force, and it's very easy to go into the Dark Side. You know you're in the dark side when all your interactions, especially with women, have motives...

I've seen it really mess with people's heads. I studied PUA material for years and I know some top people in the industry.

People get into it out of desperation. It's so hard to be accepted by women in our screwed up dating culture that some don't have alternatives.

But "The Force" has a good side, too. Some parts of it can really help.

I don't think PUA is for psychopaths/sociopaths. I think it's just for guys who, for whatever reason, simply won't give up on western women and continue to hope that something good will come out of pursuing them. After umpteen rejections, and after finding out that they will make no progress under some canned "system", their shells will start to crack, and the red pill will be there, waiting for them.

I think PUA trains men to be sociopaths. So even if men going in aren't sociopaths, in order to be successful PUAs, they train themselves to be sociopaths. Women in feminist countries are attracted to sociopaths and are sociopaths themselves.

Winston wrote:People into PUA, I think, tend to have psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies, because the whole art of PUA is being cold, calculating and manipulative.

Normal guys seek natural genuine connection with women (aka love/chemistry). But PUA types seem incapable of having genuine natural connection with women, so they have to resort to manipulation, mind control and brainwashing techniques.

This seems psychopathic in nature. It is the stuff of con artists and slick salesmen without a conscience.

What do you think?

I think you are very mistaken. PUA merely teaches men how to sell themselves to women. Who says doing so is "without a conscience"?

And by the way virtually ALL WOMEN manipulate men without conscience as to how that affects the man.

If women truly wanted to be treated by men as women treat men then men would have to BECOME psychopaths who were cold, calculating and manipulative.

Sometimes you ask quite naive questions Winston.

Just by the way. If men or women choose to be ignorant and allow themselves to be taken advantage of due to that ignorance what is wrong with that?

I have tried to educate men and they choose to be ignorant instead. Is it not then perfectly ok for them to be criminally victimised in their ignorance? Why should they have the protection of the law if they refuse to even lean what the law is?

Who is the true psychopath? The man who chooses ignorance and victimisation or the man who takes advantage of that willful ignorance to live a better life?

I think men who choose ignorance and allow themselves to be victimised are the true psychopaths.

They have no conscience about even their own children or themselves.

"Game" exists but cannot be taught easily. Of 100 students who pay thousands of dollars for PUA seminars, true success rate is probably in single digit.

momopi wrote:"Game" exists but cannot be taught easily. Of 100 students who pay thousands of dollars for PUA seminars, true success rate is probably in single digit.

This is truth. There's a lot more that factors into this stuff that maybe cannot be taught. So very few "get it", most become hopelessly frustrated and keep buying products.

Some people go over-the-top successful and they end up as the next teachers. More specifically, being around classes I can stay the statistics are about 1 in 30 students achieve this level of success. Interestingly very few students achieve a "middle ground" (such as moderate success). In fact, many students who used to have some success become drastically impaired by the material and their social lives actually get damaged! This is because instead of being their normal selves and making true connections with people, they start acting like social robots.

I would not say its for psychopaths / sociopaths. I would say it is wholely ineffective and full of lies and bullshit.
Not only that its a waste of time, energy, money for the most part.

My personal experience with it was not great. It was fun in the beginning but it soon turned into an ego contest and a bunch of idiots online who know very little about women.

I once made the comment that my own bootcamp would be to go to Las Vegas (or anywhere) and get 5 prostitutes. That would be my bootcamp.
However, I believe that a guy could learn alot more from this experience than talking to other men in a bar about women. Seriously.

PUA is a joke.