Pros and cons of having kids...

[FlyingMoose]

I am 33, have no kids, and am considering getting a vasectomy. There are some reasons I'm hesitant though:

1. I don't want to be the deer that got eaten by a wolf, or the lemming that ran off a cliff, in other words, the evolutionary loser.
2. I don't want to miss out on "true happiness" or whatever. I'm not happy now for obvious reasons (because I'm living in the US).
3. I'm afraid that foreign women will see me as "damaged goods", or that one will love me but never be happy, or that I'll love a girl and really want to have kids with her.

My main reasons for not wanting kids are (and, by the way, I've never thought to myself "gee, I want to have kids").

1. I don't want to raise kids in the US. I don't really want to raise kids in a 3rd world country either, at least partly because I'd be sorta stuck there.
2. I'm easily annoyed and have high anxiety, so I don't think I'd really like taking care of them.
3. I feel like I haven't really lived my life or had any fun yet, and if I have kids I'll be too old by the time they're grown.

What do you guys think?

[OutWest]

I am 33, have no kids, and am considering getting a vasectomy. There are some reasons I'm hesitant though:

1. I don't want to be the deer that got eaten by a wolf, or the lemming that ran off a cliff, in other words, the evolutionary loser.
2. I don't want to miss out on "true happiness" or whatever. I'm not happy now for obvious reasons (because I'm living in the US).
3. I'm afraid that foreign women will see me as "damaged goods", or that one will love me but never be happy, or that I'll love a girl and really want to have kids with her.

My main reasons for not wanting kids are (and, by the way, I've never thought to myself "gee, I want to have kids").

1. I don't want to raise kids in the US. I don't really want to raise kids in a 3rd world country either, at least partly because I'd be sorta stuck there.
2. I'm easily annoyed and have high anxiety, so I don't think I'd really like taking care of them.
3. I feel like I haven't really lived my life or had any fun yet, and if I have kids I'll be too old by the time they're grown.

What do you guys think?

What you describe about yourself is a profile of someone who is not parent material, so avoid having kids.

Outwest

[davewe]

I am 33, have no kids, and am considering getting a vasectomy. There are some reasons I'm hesitant though:

1. I don't want to be the deer that got eaten by a wolf, or the lemming that ran off a cliff, in other words, the evolutionary loser.
2. I don't want to miss out on "true happiness" or whatever. I'm not happy now for obvious reasons (because I'm living in the US).
3. I'm afraid that foreign women will see me as "damaged goods", or that one will love me but never be happy, or that I'll love a girl and really want to have kids with her.

My main reasons for not wanting kids are (and, by the way, I've never thought to myself "gee, I want to have kids").

1. I don't want to raise kids in the US. I don't really want to raise kids in a 3rd world country either, at least partly because I'd be sorta stuck there.
2. I'm easily annoyed and have high anxiety, so I don't think I'd really like taking care of them.
3. I feel like I haven't really lived my life or had any fun yet, and if I have kids I'll be too old by the time they're grown.

What do you guys think?

What you describe about yourself is a profile of someone who is not parent material, so avoid having kids.

Outwest

I have kids and love kids, despite their often being a pain! But I agree - you don't sound like you want to be a parent. Of course sometimes people change, but...

[Contrarian Expatriate]

I am 33, have no kids, and am considering getting a vasectomy. There are some reasons I'm hesitant though:

1. I don't want to be the deer that got eaten by a wolf, or the lemming that ran off a cliff, in other words, the evolutionary loser.
2. I don't want to miss out on "true happiness" or whatever. I'm not happy now for obvious reasons (because I'm living in the US).
3. I'm afraid that foreign women will see me as "damaged goods", or that one will love me but never be happy, or that I'll love a girl and really want to have kids with her.

My main reasons for not wanting kids are (and, by the way, I've never thought to myself "gee, I want to have kids").

1. I don't want to raise kids in the US. I don't really want to raise kids in a 3rd world country either, at least partly because I'd be sorta stuck there.
2. I'm easily annoyed and have high anxiety, so I don't think I'd really like taking care of them.
3. I feel like I haven't really lived my life or had any fun yet, and if I have kids I'll be too old by the time they're grown.

What do you guys think?

You first 3 reasons are straight out of the "I've been poisoned by female thinking patterns" book. Concepts like "loser," "true happiness," and "women will see me as..." are not the thoughts of good father material.

The reason to have kids is to either provide for the continuation of what you have built for yourself (a farm, a business, etc.), or to raise a child to be more successful than yourself.

Notions of being a parent for "happiness" are selfish and misplaced. Parenthood is expensive, difficult, and draining if you are to do it right.

[FlyingMoose]

You first 3 reasons are straight out of the "I've been poisoned by female thinking patterns" book. Concepts like "loser," "true happiness," and "women will see me as..." are not the thoughts of good father material.

While you may be right, this is not my reasoning for these 3 items. I am looking it more from an evolutionary point of view.

1. Maybe "loser" is a strong word, but the point is that I will be one of the people that's going "extinct". I'm not sure you've heard of the Shaker religion (mostly known for their simple style of furniture). They're not around much anymore because one of the tenants of their religion is not having children. Of course, this presumes that there is something genetically unique about myself that should be passed on. While this does seem egocentric and statistically unlikely, I still wanted to consider it.

2. Again, from an evolutionary point of view, it would make sense that humans are biologically programmed to only be truly "happy" when propagating the species. I'm not saying that this is a proven fact. However, if it is true, I don't want to be setting myself up to never be happy.

3. I am basing this on what I've seen on this very forum, about how almost all women -- in, say, the Philippines or China -- have it as their primary goal to have children. I am hoping for more information on this point, from people who have more experience with Foreign women: Is it possible to have a long-term relationship with a "desirable" women if she knows I can't have kids? Or will I be limiting myself to prostitutes?

The reason to have kids is to either provide for the continuation of what you have built for yourself (a farm, a business, etc.), or to raise a child to be more successful than yourself.

I do have a business. However, I've seen statistics that family businesses only pass to the next generation successfully about 30% of the time, and it's even less likely that it'll pass to grandchildren. So that's why I didn't include this reason.

I also have doubts about raising a child to be more successful than myself in today's world. That is, unless someone can suggest a country that's a great place to raise kids, because I can't think of any.

[samurai_panda]

Having children is a huge responsibility. If you want them to turn out good, they need proper care and guidance.

I disagree with Winston when he says parental role doesn't matter - that may be true to an extent, but for the most part, it's generally agreed upon that good parenting raises good kids.

Some people have kids by accident, it happens. It's called life. But you need to take care of your responsibilities as a man and as a father. Real talk.

I want kids someday, but with the right woman. The woman who is decent, sincere, and will look after my offspring.

[polya]

Well, if you continue to live in the USA as you get older, there less and less chance of getting a wife who is young enough to have kids. But you might change your mind in the future. For example, my friend's dad was aged 50 when he was born! So I'd recommend you don't have the vasectomy now.

[djfourmoney]

If your Caucasian this is somewhat normal....

This is why your birth rates are DOWN, success; financial is more important than than sharing accomplishments.

Nobody is forcing you to have a child. Go seek out those corners of the web the childless and unmarried hang out. Its not that hard.

Nobody said you should be without companionship.

[Winston]

You obviously aren't ready to have kids and maybe aren't cut out for it if you are easily annoyed, like I am.

Having kids requires selfless sacrifice and the giving up of your freedom and time, and living in servitude to the kids.

But I wouldn't get a vasectomy. No way. There's no need to interfere with nature and your manlihood, esp if you aren't sure if you'll change your mind later. Once the operation is done, I heard, there is no guarantee that it can be reversed.

You can always use a condom or birth control. Or you can have a child to continue your line and then abandon it, like many men end up doing. lol. Just kidding.

See my post on the consequences of having children:
viewtopic.php?t=12805

Moreover, even if you love children, you are still taking a big risk by having them, because:

1. You have no control over what kind of personality your child will have. He or she may have a personality that may not get along with your, or may be incompatible with you.
2. There is no guarantee that the child won't be born with chronic health problems or complications, which would become a big burden and worry on you.

So in effect, you are risking a lot of trouble simply because society and others say so.

[Winston]

Here are some lists of pros and cons of having children posted in The Child Free Life forums. They are quite comprehensive and make you see things in perspective. Obviously the cons outweigh the pros, numerically speaking that is.

http://www.thechildfreelife.com/forum/v ... =5&t=11856

CONS
Would change my sense of self in ways I can't predict (ditto for husband)
Would change my relationship w/husband (*possibly* for the better-though I doubt it; would strain it either way)
Would feel resentful that mothers still end up doing more childcare/housework no matter how feminist father is
Pregnancy is often fraught and uncomfortable, even when it's easy
Have to deal with other mothers/unwanted advice
Would up my overall anxiety level
Husband would feel pressured to make more money/I would feel pressure to stay home
Less sex/cuddling/time for intimacy/romance
Might feel "touched out," as many mothers claim
Less time for hobbies, reading, movies, cooking elaborate meals, etc.
Harder/more expensive to travel or even just run errands
Body would change, possibly forever, possibly in very negative ways (tearing, prolapse-eek)
More time spent in doctor's offices, hospitals, dentist, opthamologist, orthodontists' offices, etc.
Would likely face constant guilt/judgment (from self, other mothers, relatives, friends)
Less time for personal health (eating right, working out, sleeping)
Less money - for YEARS (and we're not extremely well off now). Less for retirement savings. Less for little luxuries
Would feel pressure to buy a house vs. continuing to rent an apt.
Couldn't ever NOT be a mother - might feel trapped/suffocated
Risk of post partum depression
Might not have anything in common w/child or have vastly dif. personality/difficulty relating
Dislike the idea of breastfeeding but would feel compelled to do so
House would be messier, noisier, and smellier
Might feel extremely unattractive/unfeminine/frumpy for long stretches of time, which would tank my self-esteem and romantic life
Too many possible life-altering decisions - and I agonize over trivial decisions.
Chance of huge disagreement between self and husband; would fight more, I'd wager (we rarely argue now)Might cause awkwardness between relatives (if I disagree w/parenting advice or they think my kid is too ____, or they give my kid sugary snacks, or whatever)
Hate to be disciplinarian, but would have to (or risk good-cop/bad-cop scenario w/husband)
No family nearby, which would be sad and difficult
Would have to deal w/a pre-teen/teenager. UGH.
Would have to deal w/unpleasant cultural influences (everything from Disney Princess cr*p to drugs, sex, drinking, wild friends)
Sense of helplessness (can't always protect them/ensure they succeed & have an easy life)
Would be expected to pay for college - and holy h*ll, that's going to cost a lot in 18+ yrs.
All sorts of other unknown possible tragedies - unimaginable emotional pain and you can't ever bail.
Would constantly worry I was screwing up

PROS
I enjoy babies and young children
Get to buy cute clothes, toys, stuffed animals
Get to decorate a baby's room (choose paint, artwork, etc.)
Get to pick out names
Would finally fit in with many of my friends/most other women my age
[Easily found] sense of purpose
Get to feel that "world smiling on you" feeling, as a pregnant woman/mother of a tiny baby (you def. get to be the center of attention for a while. IMHO it fades fast, though)
A *chance* of built-in elder care (no guarantee)
Would thrill my family
Get to see my child playing with cousins, grandparents - sense of life continuing
Someone to leave stuff to, someone who would want to hear about my childhood, wedding day, etc. (I loved hearing my parents talk about that stuff)
Would open eyes to what my mom went through/help us relate even better
Get to experience world through eyes of child again/excuse to play
See what happens when you mix husband and my genes
Get to see husband as father (and I do think he'd be a great one)
Heart enlargement thing parents claim happens
Sense of accomplishment ("growing"/raising living being)

Hmm, yeah. I think we made the right decision (funny how my pro list is highly superficial).

Pros

-play, fun and laughter
-unconditional love
-cute clothes, room decoration etc
-would make our parents happy and bring us closer to them
-company when I am old (worried due to age difference and family history I may significantly outlive my husband)
-satisfy the baby craving within
-fit in with people our age and have something to offer in "kid" conversations
-holidays are more exciting
-new challenge and something to be proud of
-create something together with our love


Cons

-less sleep which is a big deal to us since we both have sleep disorders
-financially drained and we already have debt
-no local family so we'd be doing it "on our own"
-less travel options because I refuse to be one of those people with an infant or toddler on an airplane!
-much less opportunity to eat out, something we enjoy and do often (again I refuse to be one of those people...)
-less time / money to take care of myself (i.e. exercise, vitamins, relaxation)
-feeling guilty for leaving the other parent home to go out with your friends which I know you shouldn't but parents seem to anyway
-vacation time is consumed by school holidays
-relationship strain and parenting conflicts
-being embarassed by behaviour
-not being able to have a phone conversation without interuption
-have to carefully plan errands
-forget leisurely things like shopping weekends because they would be too bored
-tv/movie choices would be limited and monopolized
-our work schedules would be dictated by the school / daycare schedule
-less opportunity for sex, cuddling and just communicating
-production (we would be limited to in vitro or adoption)
-body changes affecting my self image and possibly my partner's attraction to me
-trying to work meals around kid's pickiness
-may delay retirement since we don't even want to consider starting until age 37 & 41
-what about the family pet's important place in the family? It always gets screwed by the new baby...
-always putting someone else's needs before your own...yes this is selfish but also mandatory for parenthood and in my opinon, a major con !


Hmm....well there is no doubt which list is longer anyway!!!!

[Renata]

Winston what about hiring help for the kids. There are Nannies, babysitters, & the Au-pairs are just wonderful. Au-pairs are girls who want to learn English or the country's native language. My sisters get them from agencies.
They are quite affordable especially the Live-in Aupairs; most of them are foreign students who would care for your kids part time for free room & board plus meals & a stipend. My sister pays hers from $50-100usd per week plus meals & free room & board with cable & internet. The Aupair does school runs everyday, after school care for a few hours, overnight care sometimes & weekend care sometimes.

FlyingMoose if you get married then u can consider kids with your spouse if you both really want one. Please don't have unnecessary surgery done to your body, just use contraceptives, good judgment & be smart about the women you encounter.

[Jester]

Full disclosure: I'm a pro-Quiverfull, pro-life evangelical Catholic Patriarchalist / Polygamist. - in other words I am as pro-having kids as you can get.
***************
You're never too old to be a dad. There are guys 90 years old who become fathers. And their kids are damn proud of them, too.

But I fully understand that you don't feel ready at present, and might feel overwhelmed.

Winston and Renata are both right in their advice for you. Get married and have a kid when you're 50, maybe. Or later. Or sooner. When all is ready, and when you're ready. Maybe just one.

Just because you're not the kind of guy who wants to have a houseful of noisy kids, doesn't mean you can't be a great dad to one kid.

I've seen it.

No need to have an operation. Just do the living first.

And when you get overseas, remember to focus on much younger women - it gives you more time if their clock isn't ticking.

Since you don't want U.S. or 3rd world, learn a language and relocate to a nice place. Visit and explore first. Buenos Aires or Portugal / Spain / Italy / Croatia should all be fantastic places. Or if you ike Asian girls and no-strings fun, Japan.

Good luck.

[FlyingMoose]

Once the operation is done, I heard, there is no guarantee that it can be reversed.

No need to have an operation. Just do the living first.

Having kids is even harder to reverse. And several people I know have kids despite using birth control. If there were a male pill, or if something like VasalGel were available, I wouldn't even consider a vasectomy. But, I'm really afraid of having kids by accident, or with someone I don't love, or in some place that's really difficult to raise them.

What happens if I take a few month holiday in the Philippines and end up getting a girl pregnant because the contraception fails?

That's why I want to have a vasectomy, because the risk of screwing my life up by accident is so large otherwise. As I said, I've seen it happen to people I know, who were using contraception that failed.

[eurobrat]

Once the operation is done, I heard, there is no guarantee that it can be reversed.

No need to have an operation. Just do the living first.

Having kids is even harder to reverse. And several people I know have kids despite using birth control. If there were a male pill, or if something like VasalGel were available, I wouldn't even consider a vasectomy. But, I'm really afraid of having kids by accident, or with someone I don't love, or in some place that's really difficult to raise them.

What happens if I take a few month holiday in the Philippines and end up getting a girl pregnant because the contraception fails?

That's why I want to have a vasectomy, because the risk of screwing my life up by accident is so large otherwise. As I said, I've seen it happen to people I know, who were using contraception that failed.

I think that's a US mentality, of course your afraid of having kids in the USA you don't want to be locked down . Your already 33, so you made it through your 20's hurdle without having kids, I would say your safe. You don't know how many idiot guys I have ran into who knock up young girls at the age of 21-23 with no real career or life skills set in place. They struggle very hard until they are about 30-35 years old to get back onto their feet.

Just use your best judgement and don't knock up the wrong girl who you don't want in your life (like Winston JK lol).

Or another reason prostitutes are great

[Jester]

Having kids is even harder to reverse. And several people I know have kids despite using birth control. If there were a male pill, or if something like VasalGel were available, I wouldn't even consider a vasectomy. But, I'm really afraid of having kids by accident, or with someone I don't love, or in some place that's really difficult to raise them.

What happens if I take a few month holiday in the Philippines and end up getting a girl pregnant because the contraception fails?

That's why I want to have a vasectomy, because the risk of screwing my life up by accident is so large otherwise. As I said, I've seen it happen to people I know, who were using contraception that failed.

Eurobrat is correct. Most dads who take off never have a problem. Latin America has tiny child support, Asia generally has none. (Obviously check this carefully for yourself, I am not a lawyer.)

But if you really want no strings, and also no permanent relationship, then go get the operation. Then you can leave a trail of well-f***ed divorced MILF's around the globe with no worries. Millions of them are waiting for you, and you can have all the hobbies and travel adventures you want.

If on the other hand you want real love, then chill out, be selective, date young, use a sheath - and find something to focus on besides women.