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Switching gears here gentlemen...
Confession: I've spent my fair share of time in China. Long enough to learn to read and write Chinese. Long enough to learn to speak Mandarin and a couple of regional dialects as well. So I know where you're coming from Everdred. However, I wouldn't necessarily say that the girls I dated who didn't speak English were of any lower quality - whatever that means - than the ones who did. Met plenty of quality girls who didn't speak English. As for authentic - another word the OP uses - I'd say the non-English speakers win hands-down. And I don't mean authentic as in "more Chinese," I mean authentic personality-wise. (That said, met plenty of great girls all around, regardless of their language abilities, 户口, etc.)
Everdred, I've noticed that both you and I have followed something of the same path. Went to China, learned the language, dated girls there, but..... now we're both in Thailand! Kinda curious as to how that worked out. Have you noticed any huge differences in Thailand yet? What do you think of the girls there versus the ones here? Heh you know I had to ask that one...
Although it varies somewhat from country to country, being fluent in the local language is generally a huge advantage IMO. For example:
- In Taipei, a high percentage of young women do speak passable to decent or better English. But it has been much easier, for me at least, to get a chance with a lot of them using Chinese than English. And once you start dating someone here, you can generally get a lot closer emotionally in a shorter time by courting the girl in her own language. On top of that, many of the local girls who are into speaking English and hanging-out with foreigners tend to get around. They are generally not the ugliest gals but also not the prettiest ones in town. In terms of education, they are probably similar to those who live in the local world. So how is that higher quality?
- In Colombia, I did meet some higher class people. Sure, many can speak excellent English, some even sound American. But guess what? They still prefer to speak Spanish and do so with their family members and friends, many of whom are also able to speak great English. With all other classes including the middle and upper middle, its virtually Spanish only. If u speak none, u are seriously handicapped.
- In Brazil, its just a lot 'cooler' to speak Porto. 'English only' limits you to a pool of people with a significant percentage who gravitate towards gringos with ulterior motives. Only being able to speak English Rio will seriously cramp your style, ability to fully enjoy the local culture, and of course relate to the local women at a deeper emotional level.
- As for China, I just can't imagine what my experience would have been like without verbal Chinese ability. The vast majority of girls I saw who caught my eye enough for me to approach them there were not comfortable in English. Many could not speak it at all. And again, even with those who did speak well, I was able to relate better to them in Chinese.
Now for LTR, my experience is that with most younger girls, you can get her to a decent practical level in your own language within 1 to 2 years if that is what you want. It's happened w some of my gfs in the past. I've also been amazed at how fast some of the Vietnamese, Indonesian, and even Filipina wives of locals or contract workers are able to pick-up a high functional level of Mandarin and/or Taiwanese once they've been here for a year or more. Some become totally fluent. Generally, they seem to do much better with the language here than the majority of white foreigners.
Keep in mind, in many parts of the world, the foreigner chasers who speak relatively fluent social English are often economic opportunists with lower education and moral principals. In SE Asia, white guys are often the bottom feeders. The match-making agencies in Latin America and CIS catering to western men tend to attract 'suspect' girls.
Agreed. The loosest girls I've met in China all spoke English. Loose girls are the opposite of what attracts me, so I dug my heels in and learned the written and spoken language. Not easy to learn any language - especially Chinese - but so glad that I did.
Speaking of glad, I'm delighted to see that you still come on HA Rock. Thought you might've left cuz of all the hate-mongering lately. Got a lot of respect for you, esp. cuz you hooked Winston up big time a couple years ago. (Meeting him in person, being his wingman, getting him dates, calling chickens on his behalf, etc.) It's a shame that he doesn't seem to appreciate what you did for him.
Btw are you on the dating scene again? Seemed like you had an LTR for a while there.
Well guess what. I just hung out w him for a week and had some fun times. Watched some spiritually enlightening stuff at his place in the mountains and kicked-around Chiayi and Taichung a bit. I think we've figured out that he's somehow jinxed w/Taiwan girls. Something to do w/Murphy's Law and them being of exactly of the same race and ancestral background as him.
However, we managed to get him hooked-up with a young and cute Vietnamese prospect living in Chiayi who he's starting to date now. She's fluent in both Mandarin and Taiwanese too. He also sometimes dates a 35 yr. old virgin in Taichung (not attractive to me tho and uninspiring personality) and an early 30s immigrant from China (also speaks some Taiwanese) who I really like personality wise. The second one (Chinese immigrant) has a 13 daughter who seems to have a strong crush on Winston. According to him, that's happened before. Of course by the time these types become adults, they loose all interest and become just like most other Taiwan girls, again Murphy's Law.
Winston also has several good Taiwanese female friends in Taichung who we met up with too. One of them introduced me to a couple girls in Taichung and another is introducing me to a couple girls in Taipei. That's the kind of social networking I prefer to the Facebook sort.
I'm easing back into the dating scene. In Taipei, I've been close with a young nurse who I find very cute but is also a bit chubby which I don't mind a bit. Besides the intros from his friends, I met 3 or 4 new prospects of my own when out and about w/him.
13-year old girls and Winnie... Wow. Not gonna bother commenting on that one, cuz even thinking about it is wrong on so many levels. Funny sh*t. Why am I not surprised? LOL.
I'm guessing it's Murphy's Law more than anything else. Seen plenty of TW guys score with hot TW girls in my time. The latest - and greatest? - player would prolly be Justin Lee. Check the thread I just started over in the General forum. Should open up some good discussion, if nothing else.
Gotta admit, I kinda miss Vietnam. Felt like a celebrity over there. But that's been the case for basically all of East, Southeast and South Asia On only my second night in Vietnam, I stumbled across their version of the Oscars. So there I was, downtown HCMC - Saigon - and they had rolled out the red carpet in front of their grandest opera house. Lots of very attractive females in short dresses were milling about. Needless to say, I stayed.
At that point the celebs hadn't arrived, so as I was waiting, I started spitting game on a hottie I spotted. We hit it off real well. Turns out she's the director of TV and photo production for the entire gig! And she couldn't get enough of me Anyway, this girl had the credentials to back it up: when the movie stars starting showing up, I realized that she was in charge of pretty much all the guys there. Daaamn. As a result, I ended up being the only non-movie star/film director on the red carpet without a press badge! Talk about instant networking! I won't discuss what happened afterwards, as I'm not one to kiss and tell...
CerealKiller, yes, I think we're both correct. However, I think I should clarify why I created this thread. I believe there's a misconception among expats around the world that you can't meet a genuine foreign woman unless you speak her mother language. By "genuine," I mean a girl that greatly defines what a woman from her country should be like. For example, if you don't speak Russian, you can't meet a genuine/authentic Russian woman, because a Russian woman who speaks English on top of Russian is not a true example of what a Russian woman should be like. Many expats think foreign women who speak English are somehow "tainted" or are a misrepresentation of the women from her country. I strongly disagree with this point of view. I also want to point out the disadvantages of being in a serious relationship with a non-English speaking monolingual foreign woman. Now if you're the kind of expat who doesn't mind living in one single country the rest of your life, then some of the points I'm trying to make don't apply to you. However, I think many of the users of this forum like to experience life in many countries, therefore they should be cautious about getting into a serious relationship with a non-English speaking monolingual foreign woman.
Have you ever met other foreigners in Asia that not only don't speak the local language, but they also don't speak English? I always wonder how in the hell these people get by on a daily basis. It's bad enough only speaking English in Asia. Could you imagine trying to get by in Thailand or China by only speaking Spanish or Russian? You'd be extremely limited in who you could communicate with. Now imagine you want to live in the Philippines with your Chinese girlfriend that only speaks Mandarin. She would pretty much be limited to only communicating with other Chinese people or with the extremely slim number of Filipinos who happen to speak Mandarin. Now imagine after a few years you want to move to France with the exact same Chinese girlfriend. Once again, she would be limited to only communicating with other Chinese or the extremely small number of French people who happen to speak Mandarin. But if she were to speak English, at least she would be able to communicate with the majority of expats and even a sizable amount of the locals.
I should also clarify that there are countless monolingual women out there that are great catches. I'm in no way discouraging people from learning new languages to meet women. By doing that, the women you suddenly have access to increases tenfold. However, I'm trying to make a point that the foreign women who can speak English can be just as good as the ones who don't. They're also more mobile and open to foreign cultures than the ones who don't. Now if you want to spend a significant amount of time in one single country (5+ years), then by all means chase after the monolingual women in that particular country. However, as soon as you're ready to leave that country, don't expect to take your monolingual significant other along with you.
On an unrelated note, I should also clarify that I don't speak fluent Mandarin Chinese. I can have basic conversations with Chinese women, and I can even chat with them in Chinese on QQ, but I'm far from fluent. I have to constantly check words with a dictionary when chatting with them. Mandarin is a language that I plan to learn continuously, though. If there's one single Asian language I want to be fluent in, it's Mandarin. Japanese would be a close second.
As for comparing Chinese women to Thai women, I don't feel like I've been in Thailand long enough to form any valuable opinions. I'm still very much a newbie here. My first impressions tend not to reflect my opinions in the long run. Regardless, I'll still give you my first impressions of Thai women, but don't be surprised if I have drastically different opinions a year later, haha.
At the moment, I find Thai women to be very physically attractive, but I still find most Chinese women to be a little more physically attractive to my own personal tastes. There are also way more overweight and obese women in Thailand compared to China, although the vast majority of Thai women are at a healthy weight. Thai women are clearly more fun-loving than Chinese women, so that's a big plus in their favor. Thai women generally wear more makeup than Chinese women, which is somewhat of a turn-off to me. The ladies in Bangkok dress equally as well as the women back in Dalian. I've kind of grown to like Bangkok fashion. As for dating, I have already had quite a few lovely Thai ladies at my work show strong interest in me, even after I told them I have a girlfriend. I was in no way trying to charm them or make them interested in me, but they still seem to like me quite a bit. I haven't taken any of them out, and I doubt I ever will, but it sure is flattering. It's assuring to know I don't have to do much to attract beautiful Thai women. If I were single, I'd definitely consider a serious relationship with a Thai woman, but I'd stay far away from any Thai woman that's connected to the bar scene. I also wouldn't consider a serious relationship with any Thai woman from Issan.
And let me repeat guys: I'm all for learning new languages and meeting women who don't speak English. I don't want anyone to think I'm discouraging that. I'm mostly just trying to have an intelligent conversation about the stereotypes and misconceptions concerning English speaking foreign women. Maybe the reason I have the opinion I do is because in Dalian, China, 99% of the women I met that spoke English only spoke it to advance their careers, or maybe they had some plans to travel. In two and a half years, I only met a handful of English speaking Chinese women who clearly had ulterior motives. I worked with hundreds of Chinese people that spoke English, and 99% of them were in relationships with other Chinese people. I'm sure many of them would 've been somewhat open to dating foreigners, but in reality most of them didn't even know any foreigners (other than me). And I'm sure the vast majority of them weren't "sleeping around" with foreigners. However, if you're the type to constantly hang out with other expats, then you're bound to meet plenty of local women that sleep around with a lot of foreigners. Don't falsely assume that the majority of English speakers sleep around. I think it's only the women who constantly hang out with expats that do that. I simply don't believe that most foreign women learn English for negative purposes. At least in Asia, it's almost always for career or business purposes, therefore I don't believe those women are tainted or are inferior to the ones that don't speak English. Bear in mind that I'm not the kind of person that spends a lot of my time in lady bars or clubs or hanging out with other expats. So if you think I'm insane for thinking the way I do, then that's why.
Nice post Everdred. If HA were a video game, I'd say that you just leveled up.
Yep, no shortage of big-boned Thai mamas here. Big enough that they're fat by American standards. I'm still trying to figure out why that is. Any ideas?
Makeup: yeah I'm not a huge fan of heavy makeup. In fact, I try to avoid it at all costs. Might have to start changing my sensibilities if I plan to stick around for a while.
Fashion: can you say ultra-high waist shorts? To me, that is so Thai Coming from big-city China, where you get used to seeing knee-high boots or sexy stockings worn with everything... Thai fashion is a bit of an acquired taste. Not to say that I don't like it But if we were to compare SH vs BKK on clothes alone, I'd prolly go with SH.
I definitely have a few stories about the females here in Thailand, but I'm still an HA virgin and am thus not quite ready to spill the beans.
Seems like we're both stationed in BKK. Feel free to PM me.