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What Comes After Post-Modernism?

Discuss and talk about any general topic.

Moderators: jamesbond, fschmidt

What Comes After Post-Modernism?

Postby abcdavid01 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:40 pm

I see many posters on this forum as utterly despairing as if the death of masculinity is inevitable. That the third world will become modern and accept Feminism along with it. I reject these sentiments. Here's why:

Since the 1960's the dominant intellectual epoch has been post-modernism. But what is Post-Modernism? And how can something which claims to be after the Modern ever end? In Post-Modernism there is no truth, only irony. Anything goes. Nothing means anything. Nihilism and schizophrenia. Meta-everything.

But this trend will die like all the rest. People are waking up and seeing Post-Modernism for how awful it truly is.

"American cultural theorist Eric Gans...associates postmodernism closely with 'victimary thinking,' which he defines as being based on a non-negotiable ethical opposition between perpetrators and victims arising out of the experience of Auschwitz and Hiroshima. In Gans’s view, the ethics of postmodernism is derived from identifying with the peripheral victim and disdaining the utopian center occupied by the perpetrator. Postmodernism in this sense is marked by a victimary politics that is productive in its opposition to modernist utopianism and totalitarianism but unproductive in its resentment of capitalism and liberal democracy, which he sees as the long-term agents of global reconciliation." (emphasis mine)


Feminism is but one example of this victimary thinking.

Now that we have defined the problem, what is the answer? What comes after Post-Modernism? The answer is a return to truth and objectivity. No more irony and cynicism. Things have meaning, transcendent meaning. This isn't a step backwards into Modernism. This isn't a return to the 1950's or older values. This is a synthesis of values that transcends modernism and postmodernism both.

"The next real literary “rebelsâ€￾ in this country might well emerge as some weird bunch of anti-rebels, born oglers who dare somehow to back away from ironic watching, who have the childish gall actually to endorse and instantiate single-entendre principles. Who treat of plain old untrendy human troubles and emotions in U.S. life with reverence and conviction. Who eschew self-consciousness and hip fatigue. These anti-rebels would be outdated, of course, before they even started. Dead on the page. Too sincere. Clearly repressed. Backward, quaint, naive, anachronistic. Maybe that’ll be the point. Maybe that’s why they’ll be the next real rebels. Real rebels, as far as I can see, risk disapproval. The old postmodern insurgents risked the gasp and squeal: shock, disgust, outrage, censorship, accusations of socialism, anarchism, nihilism. Today’s risks are different. The new rebels might be artists willing to risk the yawn, the rolled eyes, the cool smile, the nudged ribs, the parody of gifted ironists, the “Oh how banal.â€￾ To risk accusations of sentimentality, melodrama. Of overcredulity. Of softness. Of willingness to be suckered by a world of lurkers and starers who fear gaze and ridicule above imprisonment without law. Who knows." - David Foster Wallace, "E Unibus Pluram: Television and U.S. Fiction"

"In 2010 the cultural theorists Timotheus Vermeulen and Robin van den Akker introduced the term metamodernism...As examples of the metamodern sensibility Vermeulen and van den Akker cite the 'informed naivety', 'pragmatic idealism' and 'moderate fanaticism' of the various cultural responses to, among others, climate change, the financial crisis, and (geo)political instability."

"In 2011, the artist Luke Turner published a metamodernist manifesto, calling for an end to 'the inertia resulting from a century of modernist ideological naivety and the cynical insincerity of its antonymous bastard child', and instead proposing 'a pragmatic romanticism unhindered by ideological anchorage.'"

"Aesthetically, metamodernism is exemplified by practices as varied as the architecture of BIG and Herzog and de Meuron, the cinema of Michel Gondry, Spike Jonze and Wes Anderson, musicians/sound artists such as CocoRosie, Antony and the Johnsons, Georges Lentz and Devendra Banhart, the artworks of Peter Doig, Olafur Eliasson, Ragnar Kjartansson, Å ejla Kamerić and Paula Doepfner, and the writings of Haruki Murakami, Roberto Bolaño and Jonathan Franzen, as they are each typified by a continuous oscillation, a constant repositioning between attitudes and mindsets that are evocative of the modern and of the postmodern but are ultimately suggestive of another sensibility that is neither of them; one that negotiates between a yearning for universal truths and relativism, between a desire for sense and a doubt about the sense of it all, between hope and melancholy, sincerity and irony, knowingness and naivety, construction and deconstruction."

"The prefix 'meta' here refers not to some reflective stance or repeated rumination, but to Plato's metaxy, which intends a movement between opposite poles as well as beyond."


So do not despair friends. Post-Modernism will die and life will return. We will transcend Feminism. They might not all know it, but their days are numbered. The next epoch is yet emerging.

Post-postmodernism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism

Metamodernsim:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamodernism

New Sincerity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sincerity

Remodernism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remodernism
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Postby S_Parc » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:15 pm

Sorry, but this sounds a bit like another *Dawning of the Age of Aquarius*

For those who us, including myself, who'd missed this *Summer of Love* hippy-fest, here's the original movie reference.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3I1y3jHgxA[/youtube]

This is the version, forced upon me, during chorus in elementary school by aging hippy teachers.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjxSCAalsBE[/youtube]
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Postby abcdavid01 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:29 pm

No, no, then you aren't understanding. The Hippies were the problem. The anti-family radicals. In the 70's the Hippies just became Feminists. There was a repression of their kind during the Reagan years, but they came back in full force as University Professors and Third Wave Feminists in the 90's.
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Postby S_Parc » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:02 pm

abcdavid01 wrote:No, no, then you aren't understanding. The Hippies were the problem. The anti-family radicals. In the 70's the Hippies just became Feminists. There was a repression of their kind during the Reagan years, but they came back in full force as University Professors and Third Wave Feminists in the 90's.


The reason why the New Age (meaning prior 19th/early 20th century theosophical writings of Bailey, Blavatsky, Roerich, and others) became mainstream had a lot to with the a faction of Hippies who believed in this post-postmodern brotherhood of creative thought, innovations, and unity. One result of this are all the 2012 ascension movements where folks have mishmashed Buddhism with the Christian Rapture of the Souls.

However, once any clique of persons becomes political, as oppose to just putting on musicals or street theater about a glowing future, they become just like the Bolsheviks whom they'd disdained from the start. The Who said it the best, 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss'. The good thing about Daltrey and Townsend is that they stuck with the music and let the revolutionaries do their own thing.
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Postby abcdavid01 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:14 pm

S_Parc wrote:However, once any clique of persons becomes political, as oppose to just putting on musicals or street theater about a glowing future, they become just like the Bolsheviks whom they'd disdained from the start. The Who said it the best, 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss'. The good thing about Daltrey and Townsend is that they stuck with the music and let the revolutionaries do their own thing.


That's ridiculous. It's like saying things weren't better before Feminists became professors and politicians. Clearly things were better before Feminism. That's a large part of this site's purpose. The old bosses were clearly not so bad as the ones for the past 50 years. But I am not advocating a return to pre-Feminism, but a transcendence of it. Honest intellectualism instead of nihilism. But perhaps you are just beholden to Post-Modern cynicism.
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Postby S_Parc » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:35 pm

abcdavid01 wrote:That's ridiculous. It's like saying things weren't better before Feminists became professors and politicians. Clearly things were better before Feminism. That's a large part of this site's purpose. The old bosses were clearly not so bad as the ones for the past 50 years. But I am not advocating a return to pre-Feminism


Feminism, meaning the Gloria Steinem/Valerie Solanas men-hating gestapo agents were the political arm of hippy-ism, not its totality. The full movement had all those idealistic elements you were referencing, esp the New Age as mainstream.

abcdavid01 wrote:but a transcendence of it. Honest intellectualism instead of nihilism. But perhaps you are just beholden to Post-Modern cynicism.


Now you're talking about Emerson & Thoreau, my two local Mass ancient residents. What major changes in society had occurred, after all that mid-1800s Transcendental Movement? The Civil War, Global Colonialism, Child Labor/Robber Baron Industrialism, the World Wars.

Sorry, but this cynicism is my own. If anything, history may not repeat but it sure rhymes.

Here's my vision of 2050 ... kids from the ages of 13 to 16, study very hard for national exams on various topics. Why's that? Because they need to get into a competitive internship at a GE Global Mining, All Caebol Electronics, etc since ppl don't attend a wasteful college [ from the employer's p.o.v. ] but instead, get on-the-job training, once they finish their exams and submit high enough scores to be admitted to the CO-OP. Other kids, less talented, become servers, volunteers for experiments, etc. And why is this happening? Because starting a few decades ago, multinational corps have grown in stature and now, have more influence on our development over universities, neighborhood, family, etc.

Thus, those 2050 Emersons will be these independently wealthy intellectuals, giving commentaries on society much like Gore Vidal, for much of the 20th century. As for real effect, well, that's debatable. I haven't seen Vidal make any major changes besides offering his opinion.
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Postby abcdavid01 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:42 pm

No, I am using transcendence with a lower case "t" and not referencing the Transcendental movement.

As for Vidal, a common complaint on this forum is how many women are bisexual now.
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Postby S_Parc » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:55 pm

abcdavid01 wrote:No, I am using transcendence with a lower case "t" and not referencing the Transcendental movement.


I notice that you tend to focus more on the theory than the implementation.

In practice, it's very similar [ group of bright men with a type of Plato's Academy credo, searching for answers w/o preconceived notions ] but unlike the 1800s, the Masonic lodges of today have very few members, below 45, for men to meet up and discuss those type of topics. Today, men typically don't meetup, outside of sports & work.

And having this sort of tether to Multinational Corporate America, I think it's even less likely for another intellectual post-post-modern society to come up, when vocational training or shall we say *the color of one's parachute*, is more significant than it ever was since the 50s. If you want a present-day example of this, look at oil work at Purdue Bay Alaska. The men who live there, live in almost army-like barracks type of setup, doing shifts, and using off their hours for R&R.

http://www.idlcoyote.com/adventures/arctic/deadhorse.html

http://www.d.umn.edu/~cstroupe/archive/5230/glocal/prudhoe/www.d.umn.edu/~hoef0049/pblife.html
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Postby fschmidt » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:56 pm

What Comes After Post-Modernism? Another dark age. There is nothing new under the sun, as Ecclesiastes says. History moves in the same cycles, over and over again.
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Postby abcdavid01 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:01 am

Of course I am focusing more on theory. This is an emergent epoch in very early stages. Who knows how it will come to manifest itself? And what's to say an exaltation of vocational skills isn't a part of (instead of distraction from) the new paradigm? The masses never lead intellectual epochs anyway.
Last edited by abcdavid01 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby S_Parc » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:03 am

fschmidt wrote:What Comes After Post-Modernism? Another dark age. There is nothing new under the sun, as Ecclesiastes says. History moves in the same cycles, over and over again.


I predict two centuries of Corporatism, a.k.a The Dark Tech Age, followed by the so-called New Age but without the jokers like Allen Ginsburg and Timothy Leary.
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Postby fschmidt » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:54 am

This is what follows post-modernism:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnPNr9yquuc[/youtube]

See commentary:

http://therightstuff.biz/2012/12/12/the ... modernism/
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Postby abcdavid01 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:15 am

Wow. That's a wonderful article fschmidt. Thanks for posting. I mean that. No more irony, right? Yes, it's time for something new.
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Re: What Comes After Post-Modernism?

Postby OutWest » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:40 am

abcdavid01 wrote:I see many posters on this forum as utterly despairing as if the death of masculinity is inevitable. That the third world will become modern and accept Feminism along with it. I reject these sentiments. Here's why:

Since the 1960's the dominant intellectual epoch has been post-modernism. But what is Post-Modernism? And how can something which claims to be after the Modern ever end? In Post-Modernism there is no truth, only irony. Anything goes. Nothing means anything. Nihilism and schizophrenia. Meta-everything.

But this trend will die like all the rest. People are waking up and seeing Post-Modernism for how awful it truly is.

"American cultural theorist Eric Gans...associates postmodernism closely with 'victimary thinking,' which he defines as being based on a non-negotiable ethical opposition between perpetrators and victims arising out of the experience of Auschwitz and Hiroshima. In Gans’s view, the ethics of postmodernism is derived from identifying with the peripheral victim and disdaining the utopian center occupied by the perpetrator. Postmodernism in this sense is marked by a victimary politics that is productive in its opposition to modernist utopianism and totalitarianism but unproductive in its resentment of capitalism and liberal democracy, which he sees as the long-term agents of global reconciliation." (emphasis mine)


Feminism is but one example of this victimary thinking.

Now that we have defined the problem, what is the answer? What comes after Post-Modernism? The answer is a return to truth and objectivity. No more irony and cynicism. Things have meaning, transcendent meaning. This isn't a step backwards into Modernism. This isn't a return to the 1950's or older values. This is a synthesis of values that transcends modernism and postmodernism both.

"The next real literary “rebelsâ€￾ in this country might well emerge as some weird bunch of anti-rebels, born oglers who dare somehow to back away from ironic watching, who have the childish gall actually to endorse and instantiate single-entendre principles. Who treat of plain old untrendy human troubles and emotions in U.S. life with reverence and conviction. Who eschew self-consciousness and hip fatigue. These anti-rebels would be outdated, of course, before they even started. Dead on the page. Too sincere. Clearly repressed. Backward, quaint, naive, anachronistic. Maybe that’ll be the point. Maybe that’s why they’ll be the next real rebels. Real rebels, as far as I can see, risk disapproval. The old postmodern insurgents risked the gasp and squeal: shock, disgust, outrage, censorship, accusations of socialism, anarchism, nihilism. Today’s risks are different. The new rebels might be artists willing to risk the yawn, the rolled eyes, the cool smile, the nudged ribs, the parody of gifted ironists, the “Oh how banal.â€￾ To risk accusations of sentimentality, melodrama. Of overcredulity. Of softness. Of willingness to be suckered by a world of lurkers and starers who fear gaze and ridicule above imprisonment without law. Who knows." - David Foster Wallace, "E Unibus Pluram: Television and U.S. Fiction"

"In 2010 the cultural theorists Timotheus Vermeulen and Robin van den Akker introduced the term metamodernism...As examples of the metamodern sensibility Vermeulen and van den Akker cite the 'informed naivety', 'pragmatic idealism' and 'moderate fanaticism' of the various cultural responses to, among others, climate change, the financial crisis, and (geo)political instability."

"In 2011, the artist Luke Turner published a metamodernist manifesto, calling for an end to 'the inertia resulting from a century of modernist ideological naivety and the cynical insincerity of its antonymous bastard child', and instead proposing 'a pragmatic romanticism unhindered by ideological anchorage.'"

"Aesthetically, metamodernism is exemplified by practices as varied as the architecture of BIG and Herzog and de Meuron, the cinema of Michel Gondry, Spike Jonze and Wes Anderson, musicians/sound artists such as CocoRosie, Antony and the Johnsons, Georges Lentz and Devendra Banhart, the artworks of Peter Doig, Olafur Eliasson, Ragnar Kjartansson, Å ejla Kamerić and Paula Doepfner, and the writings of Haruki Murakami, Roberto Bolaño and Jonathan Franzen, as they are each typified by a continuous oscillation, a constant repositioning between attitudes and mindsets that are evocative of the modern and of the postmodern but are ultimately suggestive of another sensibility that is neither of them; one that negotiates between a yearning for universal truths and relativism, between a desire for sense and a doubt about the sense of it all, between hope and melancholy, sincerity and irony, knowingness and naivety, construction and deconstruction."

"The prefix 'meta' here refers not to some reflective stance or repeated rumination, but to Plato's metaxy, which intends a movement between opposite poles as well as beyond."


So do not despair friends. Post-Modernism will die and life will return. We will transcend Feminism. They might not all know it, but their days are numbered. The next epoch is yet emerging.

Post-postmodernism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism

Metamodernsim:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamodernism

New Sincerity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sincerity

Remodernism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remodernism



Change is most often brought about by pain and fear of death. The coming wars, perhaps even on an apocalyptic scale for some,
will do wonders to clear minds about what works and what does not. Feminism and its Marxist roots are simply horrific modern fables
that have cast their spell on millions. The time will come when people start to think...with things as they are, why not give war a chance?


Outwest
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Re: What Comes After Post-Modernism?

Postby Dark_Sol » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:58 am

OutWest wrote:
abcdavid01 wrote:I see many posters on this forum as utterly despairing as if the death of masculinity is inevitable. That the third world will become modern and accept Feminism along with it. I reject these sentiments. Here's why:

Since the 1960's the dominant intellectual epoch has been post-modernism. But what is Post-Modernism? And how can something which claims to be after the Modern ever end? In Post-Modernism there is no truth, only irony. Anything goes. Nothing means anything. Nihilism and schizophrenia. Meta-everything.

But this trend will die like all the rest. People are waking up and seeing Post-Modernism for how awful it truly is.

"American cultural theorist Eric Gans...associates postmodernism closely with 'victimary thinking,' which he defines as being based on a non-negotiable ethical opposition between perpetrators and victims arising out of the experience of Auschwitz and Hiroshima. In Gans’s view, the ethics of postmodernism is derived from identifying with the peripheral victim and disdaining the utopian center occupied by the perpetrator. Postmodernism in this sense is marked by a victimary politics that is productive in its opposition to modernist utopianism and totalitarianism but unproductive in its resentment of capitalism and liberal democracy, which he sees as the long-term agents of global reconciliation." (emphasis mine)


Feminism is but one example of this victimary thinking.

Now that we have defined the problem, what is the answer? What comes after Post-Modernism? The answer is a return to truth and objectivity. No more irony and cynicism. Things have meaning, transcendent meaning. This isn't a step backwards into Modernism. This isn't a return to the 1950's or older values. This is a synthesis of values that transcends modernism and postmodernism both.

"The next real literary “rebelsâ€￾ in this country might well emerge as some weird bunch of anti-rebels, born oglers who dare somehow to back away from ironic watching, who have the childish gall actually to endorse and instantiate single-entendre principles. Who treat of plain old untrendy human troubles and emotions in U.S. life with reverence and conviction. Who eschew self-consciousness and hip fatigue. These anti-rebels would be outdated, of course, before they even started. Dead on the page. Too sincere. Clearly repressed. Backward, quaint, naive, anachronistic. Maybe that’ll be the point. Maybe that’s why they’ll be the next real rebels. Real rebels, as far as I can see, risk disapproval. The old postmodern insurgents risked the gasp and squeal: shock, disgust, outrage, censorship, accusations of socialism, anarchism, nihilism. Today’s risks are different. The new rebels might be artists willing to risk the yawn, the rolled eyes, the cool smile, the nudged ribs, the parody of gifted ironists, the “Oh how banal.â€￾ To risk accusations of sentimentality, melodrama. Of overcredulity. Of softness. Of willingness to be suckered by a world of lurkers and starers who fear gaze and ridicule above imprisonment without law. Who knows." - David Foster Wallace, "E Unibus Pluram: Television and U.S. Fiction"

"In 2010 the cultural theorists Timotheus Vermeulen and Robin van den Akker introduced the term metamodernism...As examples of the metamodern sensibility Vermeulen and van den Akker cite the 'informed naivety', 'pragmatic idealism' and 'moderate fanaticism' of the various cultural responses to, among others, climate change, the financial crisis, and (geo)political instability."

"In 2011, the artist Luke Turner published a metamodernist manifesto, calling for an end to 'the inertia resulting from a century of modernist ideological naivety and the cynical insincerity of its antonymous bastard child', and instead proposing 'a pragmatic romanticism unhindered by ideological anchorage.'"

"Aesthetically, metamodernism is exemplified by practices as varied as the architecture of BIG and Herzog and de Meuron, the cinema of Michel Gondry, Spike Jonze and Wes Anderson, musicians/sound artists such as CocoRosie, Antony and the Johnsons, Georges Lentz and Devendra Banhart, the artworks of Peter Doig, Olafur Eliasson, Ragnar Kjartansson, Å ejla Kamerić and Paula Doepfner, and the writings of Haruki Murakami, Roberto Bolaño and Jonathan Franzen, as they are each typified by a continuous oscillation, a constant repositioning between attitudes and mindsets that are evocative of the modern and of the postmodern but are ultimately suggestive of another sensibility that is neither of them; one that negotiates between a yearning for universal truths and relativism, between a desire for sense and a doubt about the sense of it all, between hope and melancholy, sincerity and irony, knowingness and naivety, construction and deconstruction."

"The prefix 'meta' here refers not to some reflective stance or repeated rumination, but to Plato's metaxy, which intends a movement between opposite poles as well as beyond."


So do not despair friends. Post-Modernism will die and life will return. We will transcend Feminism. They might not all know it, but their days are numbered. The next epoch is yet emerging.

Post-postmodernism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism

Metamodernsim:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamodernism

New Sincerity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sincerity

Remodernism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remodernism



Change is most often brought about by pain and fear of death. The coming wars, perhaps even on an apocalyptic scale for some,
will do wonders to clear minds about what works and what does not. Feminism and its Marxist roots are simply horrific modern fables
that have cast their spell on millions. The time will come when people start to think...with things as they are, why not give war a chance?


Outwest

I agree
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