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Is Western Christianity dying

Discuss and talk about any general topic.

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Re: Is Western Christianity dying

Postby OutWest » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:49 pm

Tsar wrote:In the Western World it seems Christianity has died.

Many people that call themselves Christians do not abide by the moral tenants of the faith.

The Catholic Church doesn't do enough to speak out against homosexuality or sexual immorality. This is primarily to not risk offending anyone. However, how can a religion survive if it does not teach it's young believers the true tenants and how to be a true believer? Whitewashing the facts essentially undermines a religion.

Many Protestant Churches have become much worse in these respects. Some Protestant Churches will "marry" homosexual couples. They do this to profiteer and abandon the moral tenants of Christianity. The Bible specifically states it is against homosexuality.

Many people in North America, Australia, and Western Europe claim to be Christians but do not follow the major moral tenants or live up to Christianity's true meaning. They support homosexuality, promiscuity, binge drinking, and they don't see a problem with it which means they are secular and not a real believer.

It doesn't help how the schools, government, media, Hollywood, and some organizations that hope to remove religion all target Christianity in many Western countries. It seems like newer religions in America like Mormonism have more of a devout following.

Does Western Civilization need a newer religion that the media hasn't discredited to help reverse the trends?


In the West, it would seem that Christianity is fading. The world-wide reality is quite different. The percentages of those who self-identify as Christian have sharply shifted so that Africa and Latin America are far more influential.

Good source here: http://www.pewforum.org/christian/globa ... -exec.aspx

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Postby abcdavid01 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:30 pm

Okay, so I already made my long post about Hayek and his thesis is that humans are biologically hardwired to be religious and this is inescapable since it is even part of our language. Only a being capable of thinking in purely abstract terms could be non-religious. Thus many supposedly secular institutions, Marxism included, are indeed religions. They fulfill the same human instincts as regular religions do. Marxism's God is the Societal Body.

I am now trying to reconcile the need for a market in the creation of civilization with anti-materialism. Trade and Capitalism are greatly humanitarian and allow for population growth, cultural development (art), ending poverty, medicinal development, etc. On the other hand, Capitalism can be alienating and we want to avoid the extreme profit/greed motive for Capitalism the Marxists rightly fight against. So I'm now looking at the ideas of E.F. Schumacher. Will his ideas reconcile this conundrum? I'll keep reading.
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Postby MrPeabody » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:18 pm

I have investigated the major and some minor religions. I don’t think Christianity is dead by a longshot for the simple reason that there is no better alternative. When you get into the details, every other religion also falls short. Another reason it is not dead is because everyone dies and is aware of it. Scientism and materialism don’t provide refuge from the storms of life or satisfactory answers to existential questions. Protestant Christianity is the most successful, I believe in part, due to their organizational structure which is based on a democratic culture having local control and a lack of a central bureaucracy. Christianity is growing in India with mass conversion from the Dalits (untouchables) who are still the victims of prejudice from Hindu beliefs (which persists even though untouchability is now illegal). I find Buddhism to be the most compatible for me, although Buddhism also has many shortcomings. For one, traditional Buddhism is a monastic religion which emphasizes renunciation and has little place for laymen whose only role is to gain merit for the next life. I also hate Western Buddhism which is really a 1960s hippie belief system which goes under the name Buddhism. The New Age movement is basically a shallow money making operation. So given the alternative, yes Christianity is going to be around long after everyone here is dead.
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Postby abcdavid01 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:54 pm

I was looking at Taoism a while before. It's very similar to Zen and there have even been historians arguing that they are basically the same philosophy. The idea is that martial conquests spread Taoist beliefs which were incorporated into Buddhism as Zen. I think there's a way (a tao) of engaging in society and still holding these beliefs.
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Postby OutWest » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:19 pm

MrPeabody wrote:I have investigated the major and some minor religions. I don’t think Christianity is dead by a longshot for the simple reason that there is no better alternative. When you get into the details, every other religion also falls short. Another reason it is not dead is because everyone dies and is aware of it. Scientism and materialism don’t provide refuge from the storms of life or satisfactory answers to existential questions. Protestant Christianity is the most successful, I believe in part, due to their organizational structure which is based on a democratic culture having local control and a lack of a central bureaucracy. Christianity is growing in India with mass conversion from the Dalits (untouchables) who are still the victims of prejudice from Hindu beliefs (which persists even though untouchability is now illegal). I find Buddhism to be the most compatible for me, although Buddhism also has many shortcomings. For one, traditional Buddhism is a monastic religion which emphasizes renunciation and has little place for laymen whose only role is to gain merit for the next life. I also hate Western Buddhism which is really a 1960s hippie belief system which goes under the name Buddhism. The New Age movement is basically a shallow money making operation. So given the alternative, yes Christianity is going to be around long after everyone here is dead.




Grafitti seen on a wall some years ago:

God is dead!

signed,

Fred.


Fred is dead!


signed,

God


And you are sure right- the Dalits in India are converting by the millions. I talked last year to an Indian pastor who leads a church there, and he said it was not uncommon on one Sunday to have more than 100 new Indian Dalits come and profess that they wish to become Christian and that in his city he estimates that more than 100,000 had become Christian in the last decade.

A similar thing is taking place within traditional "Culturally Catholic" areas like the Philippines and Latin America. Evangelical churches are experiencing explosive growth as traditional but non-practicing Catholics convert. Where I used to live in Guatemala, an Evangelical church went from non-existent to being the largest Church(in terms of Sunday attendees.) in the city in about 5 years, with 4 Sunday services of about 800 each, while the traditional Catholic church across the plaza had a couple of hundred total on any Sunday.

What this all means will take time to see...

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Postby Jester » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:54 pm

zacb wrote:
I think that Christianity is misunderstood as well. Such things as turn the other cheeks seem to get lost in the shuffle of other thing, like supporting Israel at all cost (even if their regime is not liked by the people of Israel), and Christianity looses it meaning. For me at least, when I see that verse about turning the other cheek, I tend think of it as loosening the bondage the person puts you in when they get inside your head. Basically, Jesus (or Yeshua), is saying to not focus on the small stuff, and focus on things that matter. I came o the realization after I read Don't Sweat the Small Stuff. The more you pay attention to temporal things, the more you get distracted from your goals and from your happiness. So while I think you should turn the other cheek, I don't think he meant you should just shit there as someone slapped you. But then again, I am not a theologian , so just my thoughts.

Funny to hear this fro such a young guy.

My Dad used to tell me this.

He had fought a lot in his youth - gangs, bullies, etc - and so was never afraid to fight.

But he used to teach me -- he said he wanted me to better than him - he used to teach me, "You can't fight every battle." In other words, exactly as you stated, to focus on the mission, not get distracted by the bullshit provocateurs along the way.
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Postby Jester » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:04 pm

You guys are really onto something here.

jagulep wrote:Yeh, numbers in churches are dropping, but moreso among men.

I believe the evidence for the truth of Christianity is overwhelming, from things like miracles, afterlife experiences, the records of Jesus' life, speaking in tongues, etc. but there are still some things in Christianity that lessen its appeal.

Christianity, as far as I can see:
a) is unattractive in men to women
b) has so many conflicting verses in the Bible that are so hard to reconcile

Christians should read the Bible every day but doing so gets you in trouble. Following verses like "If someone slaps you on the left cheek, offer him your right" and "It is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" can get you in major trouble. So you may end up thinking you won't follow the Bible so much, that's what's happened to me.

The worst part for me was when I realised how unattractive Christianity is to western women, even the ones in Church, despite, of course, what Christian women say. They'll say they want a Christian man but in reality they often want a "bad guy", if they're quite devout they may settle for a Church-going man who has quite a rebellious side, like strong alcoholism. I've gleaned this from talking to some Christian ladies, and the book "No more Christian Nice Guy" also points out that when men try to do the right thing this is often found to be very unattractive to a woman. Women love rebels. Western women, anyway.

That's only one reason Christianity is dying. I'm not sure what the answer is. Being hardcore and giving away all your possessions might work. That's similar to what Mother Theresa did; she was not your normal woman - she actually found riches uncomfortable! She gave away almost everything she had I think and found great joy. But the modern Western Christianity seems to have some problems but we should try to have faith in God or surely we are doomed.


zacb wrote:I think religion became irrelevant at the turn of the 19th century. The reasons relate to how churches gave away the responsibilities to lesser men in order to focus on "more important thing". Prime example, Harvard and Princeton. Those used to be Christian schools. Now where are they? They are post-modernist. Or another thing, movies. Churches used to rate movies, but they gave it up since "they had Better things to do", like collect offerings ;) . A year after that happened, the first rated X movie came out. So I think Christianity disengaging from the culture was a huge problem. I also think that public schools were another, since they replace religion as the major socialization agent in our world, along with media.


Banano wrote:If we wanna fight feminism then west should adopt Islam,
they have the most effective tools to keep women under control, look at Saudi Arabia, Iran..no gay parades, no womens rights, no equal opportunity BS and men can have multiple wifes, thats hard to bea,t
their women are good houswifes and always horny

Feminists fear Islam the most


We are on the verge of something here, gentlemen.
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Postby Jester » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:06 pm

OutWest wrote:
terminator wrote:Lets hope it dies, I'm sick of all the wars, and rules from religion.


That has been the line with Western nihilists, but the reality it that almost all wars are about real estate, money and power.
Religion has been used as a cover, but the real motivations are quite transparent.
The stream of horrors in the 20th century had little to do with religion, unless of course one would classify the atheism of Marx as a religion.
Marx and his Western enablers were and are anything but religious.


Outwest


+1
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Postby Ghost » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:31 pm

Christianity in the West is dead...spiritually dead. For anyone who hasn't woken up to the church's corruption, consider the influence of women/feminism in church. Churches want men to "man up" and marry single moms and so forth because if they held women to Christian standards, they would soon lose massive numbers of members, which means the funding goes shortly thereafter.

Churchianity, as it is more accurately called sometimes, is nothing more than a business now and seeks for worldly riches. Such corruption from a religion which was about simple and good truths.

Christianity may well be the best idea that was never practiced.
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Postby abcdavid01 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:33 pm

Maybe it's time for another Martin Luther.
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Postby zacb » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:04 am

Last edited by zacb on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby fschmidt » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:35 am

abcdavid01 wrote:Maybe it's time for another Martin Luther.

You mean the guy who said:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be a sinner and sin vigorously; but even more vigorously believe and delight in Christ who is victor over sin, death and the world.... It is sufficient that we recognize through the wealth of God's glory the lamb who bears the sins of the world; from this sin does not sever us, even if thousands, thousands of times in one day we should fornicate or murder.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://7dolors.com/apolofaiths.htm
Following the Old Testament, not evil modern culture
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Postby abcdavid01 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:48 am

Huh. Didn't know the guy was such a nutter. You know what I mean though.
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Postby fightforlove » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:27 pm

I don't think Christianity is dying in the west as much as it's evolving.
Last edited by fightforlove on Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby terminator » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:57 pm

Ghost wrote:Christianity in the West is dead...spiritually dead. For anyone who hasn't woken up to the church's corruption, consider the influence of women/feminism in church. Churches want men to "man up" and marry single moms and so forth because if they held women to Christian standards, they would soon lose massive numbers of members, which means the funding goes shortly thereafter.

Churchianity, as it is more accurately called sometimes, is nothing more than a business now and seeks for worldly riches. Such corruption from a religion which was about simple and good truths.

Christianity may well be the best idea that was never practiced.


+1 - just go to a Catholic Church & everyone rushes home at the end like there's a fire in the Church. In other Churches, you have to give 10% of your income and give up drinking, etc. - Jesus turned water into wine, so alcohol can't be bad. Churches are just controlled by the Govt just like in Nzzi Germany...
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