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Feminists likely to describe their views on sexuality as "progressive" but they actually mirror the hypergamy practiced by early humans. They're giving in to animal instincts. Very often will you hear them commit the naturalist fallacy. The adoption of tradition, limits on instinct, allows for a kind of cultural natural selection. Those groups practicing the most productive traditions will survive while those who don't will die out. Studies of demography already show this to be happening in the West. Marriage, virginity, property rights, all of these things allow for civilization to arise and maintain itself. The destruction of these things causes societal decay. Humans are naturally hypergamous. They are naturally socialistic. Yet naturalism does not make something right in every instance.
Do we have to go so far as slavery? Perhaps not, especially considering the modern economy. Yet I am by far an opponent of egalitarianism, as is anyone who really considers themselves an opponent of Feminism.
My very basic explanation would be virginity is valuable and a woman's most prized possession. She can only give it to one man. If the woman gives it to the man she marries then she has given that man her most valuable possession. It's a one-time thing. In return for her virginity the man has given her marriage, security, and financial support. When she gives it another man it's a slap in the face of her husband if she marries. Once she loses her most prized possession then she has to work to make herself desirable by flaunting her skills or trying to use her sex appeal to entice a man.
Property and Virginity: The Christianization of Marriage in Medieval Iceland 1200-1600
The required willpower, the amount self-restraint, and scarcity of virgins is burdensome and most men don't have what it takes to suppress such a strong desire especially under constant temptation. Everywhere there is exposure to temptation and the desire to give in. I could just do just that and give in but what would that do to me? It would mean I was defeated, I broke the vow I made to myself and in the process I would lose my honor and destroy my pride.
My path represents chastity, temperance, diligence, and patience. Four of the Seven Heavenly Virtues. My path also represents rectitude, respect, honesty, honor, and loyalty. Five of the Seven Virtues of the Bushido. Bushido also emphasizes honor unto death. My path represents honor, courtly love, and courtesy from the chivalry of medieval knighthood. I remind myself why I do not settle because what would that make me? What would that do to my virtue, honor, and pride? My path has two endings. I have a relationship and marry a virgin or honor onto death.
Many people in America and feminized nations would call me a misogynist, selfish, and use shaming tactics against me. What many people don't understand is nearly every culture in the world that ever existed valued the same two elements: virtues and virgin bride. Without virtue and virgin brides a civilization is destined for social dysfunction, societal discord, cultural extinction, and collapse. By following the virtues I know that I am in the right and the people that shame the men who expect virgins do not represent the virtues. A righteous man is never a misogynist or wrong.
Exactly, you nailed it. If the couple is young enough and learns together...but it's almost never the case. I am 38 and had sex since I was 16. The only virgin girlfriend I had was my second one, when I was 17 and she was 15 1/2. Heck even my first time was with a non-virgin! I can't possibly imagine having a relationship with a young woman who knows nothing about sex. That's why virginity, for how great and symbolic of her morals and commitment it is, is hardly a premium for me. I know some adult people are tickled by the idea of acting as mentors for very young girls with little or no sex experience, but that's not what floats my boat at all. I want a relationship that puts us as much as possible on a par on that kind of physical intereraction.
Well, what you need to define your "certain level". Once a girl has discovered how to extract pleasure from sex, it's entirely up to her whether she wants to find sexual nirvana from a single boyfriend who she will end up marrying, or play around for years. I for one wouldn't judge a girl's sluttiness from how much in control of her sexual life she is, but from how capable she is to stimulate that other (metaphorical) organ and feel love, and how willing she is to bond and commit to a single partner, and work towards a harmonious relationship with him.
Oh, this is a ticklish topic. I know one or two young men, one in his early thirties no less, who have never had intercourse and feel terrified at the idea of finding themselves naked in front of a late-20 woman and not being able to please either side. What should that kind of man do?
1) Find a woman who, for one reason or another, has preserved herself virgin till her first serious relationship, or marriage. Well, as the stats say, good luck finding one, especially in first-world, metropolitan, liberated culture like London. And if they did find one, I wouldn't be surprised if she staid away from sex for reasons that don't make her prime marriage material: besides lack of attractiveness which can be subjective, I would include unfortunate physical or mental issues.
2) Find a very young woman who is likely to have little or no experience, and will probably not complain too much as her partner gets to grips with the knobs (no pun intended ) and levers of his sexuality. This is why, every time we talk about it, I keep trying to convince this particular friend of mine to pay a visit to the Philippines or Latin America and find a "good girl". He's top-notch on all other counts, so he should have no trouble whatsoever to woo some beautiful middle class girl, family and all.
3) Get into the dangerous frame of mind that he needs to "catch up" as quickly as possible. This is the kind of humanity that falls easily into the self-help and PUA rubbish bins, ending up with very little more in their hands and a lot of time and money lost. For somebody like that, with little sexual and perhaps social ammunition and wearing the tin foil cap and body armour of some PUA "game", hitting the bad girls of bars & clubs will almost certainly spell disaster and frustration.
4) Acknowledge his lack of sexual experience and, if a virgin, be at least a confident virgin, which includes knowing why he has chosen to preserve himself for the right partner. A young man who is serious, consistent with his principles, and able to express empathy and tenderness, has all the ingredients to be appreciated and loved by a good woman, whether she's a virgin or not. And once that woman falls in love, she will almost certainly muster the patience to let her less experienced partner catch up with her, and gradually learn how to please and be pleased.
I think there's no doubt what my choice would be...
I think you have quite a romantic view on virginity here. I don't think the ability to bond has much to do on whether you had sex never, once or a hundred times before. The reality is most of those those women who purportedly have no ability to bond and fall in love have far deeper psychological problems, and their mindless sexual conduct may well be an effect of those problems: a broken and abusive family, the absence of role models, the fear of placing trust into another human being, etc. I don't think the issue can be reduced to a simple equation...
...or, they could be men who never managed to express themselves sexually, besides a PC screen or an online dating context that is, and are hiding their sexual insecurities behind the fragile assumption that a virgin woman will be more submissive and less demanding, both inside and outside the sack.
Sorry mate, I am not buying this. If you really were the righteous, non-misogynist young man you purport to be, by now you would be either engaged or courting a perhaps not extremely attractive, but good hearted and morally sound girl met in your church or local community. There's a difference between a virgin who chooses to love, fully and unconditionally, while saving his sexual urges until after marriage, and one who never got laid and touts his defective sexuality as a privilege and a proof of moral superiority.
Cosy, how you entirely skip the reasons that, throughout history, led women to be harlots instead of good wives... Poverty and need, trauma and abuse, and more. Most men would demand a virgin in bed and not disdain their brothels, their lovers, their easy lays on the side. Hardly a better model of society, if you ask me...
Yes, certainly you have the right to marry a virgin woman if she decides to marry you out of her own free will. I don't have anything against this, even though it's not what I want to do.
But I think that this type of traditional thinking doesn't mix well with more modern types of thinking. If you really want to live like this, I would think that you'd need to live in some very remote and traditional community. I'm not sure if such places exist anymore outside of Muslim countries.
I have high expectations and I refuse to compromise. If I lowered my standards I could easily find a girl but I remain steadfast in my beliefs. I never really wanted to get laid because I was traditional. I wanted everything to be ideal. America isn't the best place for people like me. If I was in a country like Russia I would probably be married by now. Here is America it's not easy for people like me. Do you think it's socially acceptable to approach a girl after mass when she's with her family in church and ask her if she would like to go to lunch sometime after Sunday mass? What if the girl was seventeen? It would be a disaster. Is it acceptable in America to approach random girls you have never seen before in your life? The man who approached her would be labeled a creep and she would likely be rude. Many girls constantly text away on their iPhones or have boyfriends.
Then there's the odds are she wouldn't have compatible morals because she probably has a "history." I don't go to nightclubs, bars, clubs, lounges, or other venues hoping to pick up women because it's not my style.
Those reasons should be enough to see why someone like myself isn't engaged by now. American girls do not like good and righteous men, and even if they say they do then they are probably taken. The number good men in America is much greater than the number of good girls, and when the obesity levels are as high as they are the number of reasonably attractive women are lower. My story is that of a victim of a toxic environment known as America, but I will not be defeated by it because I will continue on the path to find love and happiness abroad. Unlike most men my age, I have morals and I am working on creating a good future for myself.
People older than I recognize that I am a righteous and notice I am different than most other people in my generation. Righteous people aren't always popular people. It's a misconception that honorable people have easy lives, many times it's the honorable people who have the more difficult path in life but when they finally reach the destination that path, the reward will be worth it. Why is it Americans and feminized girls and the many younger men around my age try to shun and ignore honorable and respectable people? I am not to blame for my lack of relationships and I count myself lucky I haven't wasted my time on American feminized women.
I like Jester's concept of half breeds. Women who start out okay, but then move to America and become infected by Feminism. Not as bad as women raised here, but not as good as if they hadn't been infected.
Another thing, there's no choice any more. You can't just say, "If you want a virgin, get a virgin, no need to judge me." Sexual liberation has changed the language. Virginity isn't an expectation anymore. How is someone supposed to find a virgin? Yes, you could try church or something, but even then you don't know. I mean, I found a few diamonds in the rough, but I'd rather go to the diamond mine...abroad. At least with "harlotry" you can tell who's who. Now the line's all blurred.
In my case, I have a pretty enough face and I'm smart, so I've had ton of girls crushing on me before. I certainly could have gotten laid by now. Those girls I listed earlier...one I was surprised to find out was a virgin. She dated around a lot, mostly douchebags. Yet she apparently didn't sleep with any of them. You might think she's lying, but I believe it. She wanted to be a housewife and have a daughter. She might remain a virgin, but if she doesn't wise up she'll be a single mother. The other girl was a high school classmate who was pretty great, but she was probably one of Jester's halfbreeds. I was going through a rough patch in my life, so I dropped the ball on courting her. The last girl I dated for a few months, but she was very immature.
Last edited by abcdavid01 on February 18th, 2013, 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don't understand. Assuming you live in a small or medium-sized town, you think it's too hard to ask around - as they used to do in Italy until not so long ago - whether that particular girl spotted in the church or community hall is single and eligible? And even if you approach the girl's parents with an excuse and then start talking to their daughter, you think they would consider you a creep? I really don't think a community of religious and morally sound people would consider an approach from a fellow community member rude, let alone creepy. And then, as a last resort, your direct or extended family doesn't have any family friends with a marriage-age (say, >20) girl who also happens to be single?
I still harbour the suspicion that many of you guys have their bars set too high in terms of aesthetics. Understood, you see fat young women as undesirable. Yet, would you be prepared to accept a girl who is perfectly good marriage material without looking like the blonde busty stunner you may have spotted in a bar?
OK, then you should find a virgin abroad, maybe in the Philippines. There are plenty of cute 18/19 years old virgins all over the place, especially in the province and outside big metropolitan areas. So usual question applies: what are you waiting for?
Publicduende, you have experience, so maybe you can give some insight into this. I posted it on another topic. I don't have a looks complex (I don't need a model), but I do have an intelligence one. The problem I have is that I want to pass on my intelligence to an heir, but most intelligent women here are really awful liberal feminist types. There's also an inverse between education/income and fertility. I'd much rather have a strong line, couple kids at least. My father even told me to have three or more kids because he couldn't. Should I just ditch the idea of finding an educated woman and search for a nice one? Ideally I'd like a really smart chick who's not a Feminist, but that's pretty rare it seems.
I'm not talking about formal education. I'm a college drop out. Just general intelligence.
@abcdavid01, that's like a trick question...I don't think anyone can give you a good answer. There's plenty of educated women in Eastern Europe who don't follow feminist principles and just want a family with a couple of kids but I'm not sure how she's turn out if you bring her to the West. My guess is that you'll be at risk of a divorce.
@publicduende, it's clear that Tsar is not willing to compromise, he wants virginity & looks in one package. I don't blame him, if you put 2 attractive twins in front of me (a virgin and a non-virgin) and you ask me to choose which one I would marry right now I'd take the virgin. I don't care about her sexual experience, I don't expect her to lead in bed and if she's not 100% confortable with her sexuality that's even better because I don't want her mind wondering to some ex-boyfriend.
For a woman being sexually experienced amounts to nothing. I'd rather have sex with the perfect 10 brunette who wants me to turn off the lights before she gets naked rather than the overweight nimfo.
In the Philippines, the precentage of virgins is even higher than in Ukraine. I'd say that at age 18, maybe 60-70% are. Again, it is hard to measure and it depends on the area but the thing is once a girl is a single mother in the Philippines, she won't get a good man. Generally speaking.
A guy who is studying and working and saving money would not like a girl who'd been screwing around particularly because he will be paying for the wedding.
Now, I don't have stats but the majority of the younger girls- 18-22 that I knew there were virgins. There were some who weren't and these were looking for Americans and foreigners because they thought we didn't care. And most Americans there don't.
They marry single moms and non virgins and even whores- anything is better than the American woman. But such guys also remain unfaithful and often it is OK for the girl there.
Many American guys in PH do not have the time or the patience to court girls long term. They want to get laid now. Many even prefer moving in with whores because these deliver the goods and don't complain.
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!
Don't fall into the trap of generalizing all of "Eastern Europe" as one unit. Lots of guys do this, and the reality couldn't be further from that. Each country there is very different from the others.
You're looking for such an extremely traditional mindset that I'm not sure if you'll be able to find it in any of these countries, at least I doubt that you'll find it in most countries west of Ukraine. But Poland seems to be the most devoutly Christian (Catholic) country in Europe, but still, I'm sure that there are plenty of other people there who have more modern thinking.
I've heard that Slovakia is more traditional than the Czech Republic. But I haven't spent any significant time in Slovakia so I can't say. All the Slovaks I have met have seemed pretty normal and not particularly religious. No modern European country is going to be the sort of "flawless kingdom of purity" that you're looking for, I think.
While there may be some devoutly religious Slovaks, there are also Slovaks like this:
Or maybe you could guard churches against arson in Norway, but you might be fighting a losing battle...
Where did you get the data for your chart?
I think you'll have better luck finding virgins at churches in the USA. The chances of them staying married to you are higher with an American woman than a woman from FSU countries. I think there are virgins frequenting churches in Amereica. Women is FSU countries lie and cheat more than the average Americans. Are you looking at churches in America for virgins? Why are you sold on FSU?
I received links for some research studies done in Russia and Ukraine. I had some studies for American girls. There were only select age points and age ranged given, so I used some statistical estimation to fill in the missing data points. The graph and the overall trends seem very accurate and reflective of the present.
I will not try American churches. I don't want to stay in America, I want to permanently relocate abroad. America is an empire in decline and everything about American culture I don't agree with. I hate the feminist, liberal, corporatist government of America. I don't like how healthcare costs are inflated. The only things America is good for is investing, shopping, and for selling products to Americans. I don't even like most American women. American girls ages around 18 aren't ready for relationships. Then there's the long story about why I got interested in the FSU.
I was sold on the FSU is ever since I was a teenager. I love the women from the FSU because I heard they are feminine, talented, loyal, affectionate, and they know how to love their man. Reading about the history of the Tsars and the Soviet Union is one of my interests. I had all three anthems (Imperial, Soviet, and Current) anthems as mp3s ever since I was a teenager. I identify more with other cultures than the American culture. The eye color and physical features of Slavic women make them some of the most beautiful women in the world. I also have some ancestors from Eastern Europe.
I was considering American girls for a long while but they were either taken or rejected me. At the time I didn't notice the only girl that ever showed any interest in me and she was a decent girl. Beginning at college all the girls were sluts, played games, declined, absorbed with iPhones, feminists, obese, ugly, rejected me, not interested, covered in tattoos, or unapproachable. Who is left?
The distribution of attractiveness in the FSU is much higher compared to America. I don't think the women in the FSU are more likely to lie and cheat if they genuinely like a guy. If women don't genuinely like a guy then of course they will play games, lie, and cheat because they wouldn't care.
I am very attractive, about a 7.5 or 8 by American standards. I am exceptionally intelligent and talented. The older people who know me are impressed by me and think highly of me because I am different than most Americans. One factor about me is that I stutter similar to King George VI which is something Americans don't understand. In America people are not friendly, accepting, or welcoming. It doesn't impact my ability to speak and when I know the person it's basically gone. The problem is that many Americans are intimidating, judgmental, and immoral. People have to be defensive, cautious, and always be at their best because in America it's cold and everything is turned into a competition.