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Is It Worth Fighting?

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Is It Worth Fighting?

Postby zacb » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:53 pm

I am not trying to be a debbie downer, but it seems like ever country is bound to move towards socialism. In addition, is there such thing as a free market? Since people chose this, doesn't it mean people live under what they want? Since man is imperfect, and they want power, is it possible to have free markets, oris it possible to only have a "freer market'? I don't know.
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Postby abcdavid01 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:33 am

Functional libertarianism is a utopia that would only work if humans were perfectly responsible.

Freedom is no virtue and remember, Marx was the one asking for liberation.

The temptation of libertarianism is to realize the problem and attempt a retreat. It is not a real solution.

You're asking the right questions. Just keep pressing it until you find an answer. It's not enough to give up and say you don't know.

Human are socialists by nature. What matters is how those instincts are channelled.
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Postby publicduende » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:44 am

abcdavid01 wrote:Functional libertarianism is a utopia that would only work if humans were perfectly responsible.

Freedom is no virtue and remember, Marx was the one asking for liberation.

The temptation of libertarianism is to realize the problem and attempt a retreat. It is not a real solution.

You're asking the right questions. Just keep pressing it until you find an answer. It's not enough to give up and say you don't know.

Human are socialists by nature. What matters is how those instincts are channelled.


Free markets are also an utopia, unfortunately. Too many examples of booms & bust sustained by greed and dark agendas, are there to show it. Free markets and the invisible hand is just another theory, like Marxism or Weberism.
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Postby zacb » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:57 am

Let's put it this way, I believe in making money and doing it honestly through voluntary exchange, but as far as it being implemented as a consistent system, I doubt it. I never said socialism in and of itself is bad, it is just it should be confined to things like family. In any case, basically I should focus on MY free market, and not it as a system overall.
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Postby abcdavid01 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:42 am

Ah yes, the Invisible Hand. Who's hand is it? That of a God surely. And the Marxists have their Societal Body.

There will never, ever be an atheist.
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Postby Taco » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:00 am

The only free markets that I'm aware of are Hong Kong, Singapore, Panama and Dubai. These ports are generally overpopulated(by definition) and have few natural resources which is supposed to be the cause of all poverty. On the contrary, the citizens of these ports have incredible wealth because there's no taxes and low inflation. How long they will stay that way I don't know.

Africa, on the other hand, has tons of gold, oil, diamonds and agricultural land but no wealth for its citizens. All African countries have high inflation which is a tax that can be imposed without legislation and taxation is just another form of confiscation.

Generally, the more self sufficient(off the grid) you are the more freedom you'll enjoy regardless of where you live.
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Postby zacb » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:01 am

What guides the market? It is what people are willing to pay, but it is often distorted. In any case, that is the ideal, and when we derive our sense of valuing things, we can find distortions in the markets and take advatage of them.
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Postby Winston » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:45 am

How can there truly be a free market when corporations eventually dominate and control everything, and drive small businesses out of business? In a free market, the strong and the powerful take over, just like anywhere else. Once they do, they make the rules and run the game. So how is that free?
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Postby skeptic » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:29 am

America is unlikely to become as socialist as Europe (let alone the Communist-powered China). And if it does, that wouldn't be such a bad thing. I agree that libertarianism is a utopia (although Winston claims that this very website is based on libertarian ideas), and capitalism is only as good as the limits imposed on it by the government. No, I'm not an ideological socialist. But, realistically speaking, socialim is a dangerous poison that sometimes is need as medicine. Just like overdosing on medicaions could be dangerous to a body, overdosing on socialism could be dangerous to a country. But if taken in a safe dose, a little socalism is exactly what America needs. Why are you so eager to date or completely move abroad? You complain about obesity, lack of transportation options, entitlement behavior in women, etc. Where are all these things coming from? It's not even capitalism in its pure form. Rather, I believe, it all came as a result of corporate invasion of America in the name of capitalism. Fast food comes from McDonald's, Burger King, and numerous other corporate chains of junk food restaurants. Urban public transportation and intercity passenger rail are either completely destroyed or severely curtailed (depending on the area of the country) by auto industry (or, perhaps, petroleum industry) that heavily lobbies the Congress for funds. Some socialist medicine, I think, is needed to fix all that.
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Re: Is It Worth Fighting?

Postby Teal Lantern » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:42 am

zacb wrote:I am not trying to be a debbie downer, but it seems like ever country is bound to move towards socialism. In addition, is there such thing as a free market? Since people chose this, doesn't it mean people live under what they want? Since man is imperfect, and they want power, is it possible to have free markets, oris it possible to only have a "freer market'? I don't know.


Every country may, at sometime in human history, veer into socialism.
The key is to realize that not every country will do this in your lifetime.
Find a place where the nation is on its upward arc.

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Postby zacb » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:01 am

Winston wrote:How can there truly be a free market when corporations eventually dominate and control everything, and drive small businesses out of business? In a free market, the strong and the powerful take over, just like anywhere else. Once they do, they make the rules and run the game. So how is that free?
But then again, corporations were a government investion, as was patent and copyrights. I was talking about a world without them.
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Postby abcdavid01 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:13 pm

Skeptic, China's about equal as far as Communism goes. Using a strict economic definition, government spending as percentage of GDP is pretty much the same.
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Postby Devil Dog » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:54 pm

Winston wrote:How can there truly be a free market when corporations eventually dominate and control everything, and drive small businesses out of business? In a free market, the strong and the powerful take over, just like anywhere else. Once they do, they make the rules and run the game. So how is that free?


Winston, a corporation is a legally recognized entity used to do business. A corporation may have one owner, zero employees, and do a tiny amount of business or even no business. "Corporation" and "Huge, Evil Multinational Corporation" are not the same thing. Using the term as if you don't know the difference diminishes your argument.
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Postby abcdavid01 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:06 pm

Using semantics to distract from a self apparent meaning in no way diminishes an argument. It just makes you look like a prick.
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Postby Devil Dog » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:44 pm

abcdavid01 wrote:Using semantics to distract from a self apparent meaning in no way diminishes an argument. It just makes you look like a prick.


The argument is made up of semantics, little feller.
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