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Traveling for minority guys!

Discuss and talk about any general topic.

Moderators: jamesbond, fschmidt

Postby mguy » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:59 pm

The good news is that economically speaking, for minority guys, is that they have very few things to lose when they move abroad. Especially in the starting-out range or at the career-apex from entry to mid.

Also i'd add, if you are sick of US society then why would you gain employment to enrich the system further? I mean sure if you were getting all the girls and the nice perks, but you're not.. so in essence you are feeding the society that you despised in the first place. Welcome to slave/drone nation.

And im not even that big of an America hater -- I actually like some aspects of America.
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Postby mguy » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:03 pm

Repatriate wrote:
mguy wrote:
We are not whining about it, at least I'm not. This is just something that is specific to a minority travel based thread. If it was color blind thread then a minority guy would think he would have the same success but life isn't so.

Yeah but i'm just pointing out that there's a lot of negativity about something trivial like teaching ESL. A few posts up there are making it seem like it's a certainty you will fail if you try to get an ESL job as a non white. I know for absolute certainty that asians don't have problems getting those jobs in Thailand at least. You may get rejected for a few but there are so many jobs out there that it's not a big deal. I have enough ethnic asian friends teaching in Thailand to know that.


This is not trivial; it makes a difference towards a full-blown successful expatriation. When you are looking for a quick buck -- that ESL job is your safety net! How do you think most expats start-out? They get the ESL job as a life-support system, then start building there. This life-support system is not as reliable for minority guys as it is for white guys. And because this/these life-support system is not available for us, then we must be much more diligent in our research separating fact from fiction. Other jobs, not just ESL, are also color sensitive, as sk8board mentioned -- that cute blondie from Europe in your hostel working as admin as she waits for her paperwork to be processed-- she is essentially banking on her skin tone and you dont have that extra luxury in this highly sensitive time period!
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Postby Repatriate » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:08 pm

Btw, I do think it's a big mistake for someone to just go abroad and rely on teaching english with no other income to back it up. Teaching english should not be a career pursuit unless you plan on getting personal experience and fun time abroad. Or you plan on taking it far with a license from your home country and getting into the international schools. Using it as a life support to find other opportunities is fine but from what i've seen way too many guys just get by with it. I know Ladislav has managed to do well with it but he goes to Saudi Arabia and places like that where the pay is much higher.
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Postby aozora13 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:22 pm

Rep,

I was thinking the samething about working abroad. I was thinking about finding a way to work in Europe for a minority guy. The problem was that unless I taught in eastern Europe, there are no other jobs that can process you a work visa quickly unless you open your own business and that of course requires a decent amount of capital.

I guess the only other ways for guys to work and live abroad is to marry a girl but I feel that is restricting yourself unless you like the country with the girl.
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Postby skateboardstephen » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:45 pm

Repatriate wrote:Btw, I do think it's a big mistake for someone to just go abroad and rely on teaching english with no other income to back it up. Teaching english should not be a career pursuit unless you plan on getting personal experience and fun time abroad. Or you plan on taking it far with a license from your home country and getting into the international schools. Using it as a life support to find other opportunities is fine but from what i've seen way too many guys just get by with it. I know Ladislav has managed to do well with it but he goes to Saudi Arabia and places like that where the pay is much higher.


I see what you are trying to say..but that still does not let some of these countries off the hook in my opinion..especially when the people in your target country seem to live quite well in your country..and have a much lower unemployment rate in the country you want to live in.....we let 1 million legal immigrants into the U.S. a year ,that is not including the illegals..and they get work in American companies with out having to rely on teaching a language, while 40 million Americans just stopped looking for work all together but Dominicans keep pouring into the U.S....In Philadelphia i was meeting new immigrants ever time i turned around and i even trained some of them at Burlington coat factory distribution center in Spanish to do jobs that Americans would and should be doing...which is also full of other immigrants working..while the unemployment rate for Americans is highly unacceptable...Plus in Brazil where i am at they also make it really hard for Foreigners to open businesses..and if you do...you have to hire Natives..you can't even provide work for people from your home country ...like other immigrants do when they get to the U.S.
se eu soubesse o que eu sei hoje, teria mando mulheres americanas para foder-se há muitos anos.que deus abençoe o brasil!
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Postby kai1275 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:30 pm

Repatriate wrote:There's been a big decrease in well paid expat positions overseas especially in Asia because the skill gap is closing. There are a few articles about this situation in Hong Kong. Why would some multinational or even domestic corp. hire some white expat engineer for 2-3x the salary along with visa, cultural, and attitude problems when they can get an equivalently skilled local who studied abroad? You ever wonder where all those Chinese students with student visas go if they can't get a job in the U.S. ? They go back home right into those entry level jobs where their foreign degree carries some prestige.

I hear stories of people in China hiring white expats as meat puppets to show off how big time they are but the salaries aren't anything special. It's just face value and that novelty wears thin as corporations focus more on the bottom line and efficiency.


Yep. The skill gap is closing BIG TIME! Thanks to certain multinational companies and corporate greed not having any loyalty to any country, especially the whorish USA. My children will not have the skill and experience advantages I have if they work in my field.

Also you are 100% correct about the foreign students. Many of them go back to China and make BIG money with that shiny American University degree. More money than if they were to stay here and hoof it with the other Americans. Only the liberal-minded/very religious/westernized ones try to stay here after school. Rich Chinese live like kings back in China, with that nice job. Their parent's Guanxi (connections) make them even more filthy rich.
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Postby AnonymousAmerican » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:32 pm

mguy wrote:
Don't count on being able to crack it being an engineer these days for entry level. Unless you go to a top-tier school or have massive internships or were recruited. Truth is we are graduating more engineers than we need and we still max out Indian engineers with masters from US schools who are willing to work much less. Unemployment lines are always filled with engineers in my experience.


I want to only stay in the US once I get a history of employment in engineering, and my PE. once that, I'll bounce out of the US. probably get a job in the first-world, non-english speaking world, since typically, indian engineers only go to english speaking countries.
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how to survive in the US: http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/view ... hp?t=19236
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Postby kai1275 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:41 pm

mguy wrote:
kai1275 wrote:Nice thread going on here. Very interesting stuff.

I will throw a few bones in too.

Teaching English in China while black? It's possible. some do well, some do not. It's luck and location dependent. As a whole Chinese schools typically require a white European looking person to teach English. This is VERY common knowledge. The reason why is this. The parents are dumb quite often, and will make demands for their money to be given back if they find out the teacher is not a white guy. Would you like to be told in Mandarin, "How can this black devil teach my son English! He is not white!" I read a story about a black English teacher in China getting chased out of a school by parents. You would be far far more likely to see this in a more rural area. If you teach English there, look for English teaching for grown people. Like at a training center if you can. The better paying ones for universities, etc. are tougher to get for any non-white person (asian/chinese included!).


As for that Engineer stuff, Mguy is right. Entry level engineers are a dime a dozen big time. Indian ones with masters are even more numerous. You better have had 3-5 internships before graduating from college before coming out and have at least around a 3.5GPA or you are in for a major surprise. Also do not hold your breath on getting a PE quickly either. You will need like 3-5 years at least of industry experience before you can even test for that credential. You will be waiting a while before going abroad if that is your plan. You might as well sow oats in the US and bring a wife back like I did if that PE means that much to you. I have alot of credentials and experience for what I do as an IT consultant, and that makes it alot tougher to just leave the US, just to get shitty a** pay in some other f***ed up country. My only realistic choices, are to go to another anglo country if I want to even have a chance of making similar or more money. If you get comfortable enough to get a PE, you might get stuck too. Quite the Catch 22 eh?


Will you please add you ethnicity just for discussion sake.

Also as an IT consultant what are the odds of relocating to Europe say France or some other first world country outside the Anglo-sphere? Do they have enough scarcity there to need your skills. Why isnt that a popular option that isn't discussed..


I am a black american. I am native american mixed and some Italian, but black looking enough that most don't notice that for the most part.

Moving to Europe is an option if America becomes a literal shithole or hellhole. Either that or we are moving to China. My skillsets have very little market in a way in China, but I know enough areas of IT to make a University there angry if I taught Chinese locals there if I opened my own school. I actually had this as a backup plan if I could not get my wife back here. Opening your own company in China is toooo easy in a way. China is more of an entrepreneur's paradise compared to America. Of course I would have the company in my wife's name or her dad's.... I could do it myself, but I'd rather concentrate on other aspects of that and draw less attention to myself in the process and use their guanxi (connections).

As for Europe, the demand for my expertise, is probably the same as the US (depending upon the country), more or less. the pay is just as high if not much higher because of my level of specialty. The only challenge would be how to market myself and get all the appropriate permits, etc. (red tape) I have little time to myself as it is. I would only read heavily into this if I was forced into doing so. Not to mention the EU is expensive as f**k. Moving there would not be cheap at all.
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Postby djfourmoney » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:34 am

mguy wrote:Teaching English as a non-white man? You are battling odds. The world associates American with white. If you are not white then you have extra hurdles so things may not be as smooth for you.

Bar none: blue eyed blonde guy and African-american in any country outside Anglosphere -- see who gets dib ESL job. They dont care about equality, your color just markets you.

Maybe I'm wrong but it does sure like that from what I saw. The upstarts in the Philippines applying for a government grant -- all white!! Heck, the government markets these programs with whitey. There's even a study how angel ventures prefer white.

It's a sick world, but that's why we have threads like this.


Just how many Black Americans have you seen abroad? They generally don't travel and when they do, they tend to go to places full of people that look like them (Jamaica, Belize, Dominican Republic, etc). As I said before Bahia is gaining in popularity with Black men in America because that state has the largest Black population in Brazil.

Black men as a whole want and pine for Black American women to their own detriment. This is a losing proposition and many don't seem to understand it, so when the ship goes down, lots of Black men are going to go down with it.

They also don't consider being an expat and don't consider teaching English. I do know of a Black man that was on International House Hunters that is teaching school in South Korea.
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Postby djfourmoney » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:49 am

skateboardstephen wrote:
mguy wrote:Teaching English as a non-white man? You are battling odds. The world associates American with white. If you are not white then you have extra hurdles so things may not be as smooth for you.

Bar none: blue eyed blonde guy and African-american in any country outside Anglosphere -- see who gets dib ESL job. They dont care about equality, your color just markets you.

Maybe I'm wrong but it does sure like that from what I saw. The upstarts in the Philippines applying for a government grant -- all white!! Heck, the government markets these programs with whitey. There's even a study how angel ventures prefer white.

It's a sick world, but that's why we have threads like this.


This does have some truth to it..like in Brazil under job adds they will put.."boas aparências por favor " which is code word for attractive and European...Every one thinks i am from Brazil..because they do associate American with being white..98% of the bums down here or underemployed are black..while when you go into any air conditioned office..or facy the hotel,the mall or government building the staff seems to all be bright,light and damn near white..to white.They will however let blacks put up the trash around the building..I am not saying it is hopeless here for blacks i know some with alright jobs..but as a whole...no i met a German chick that was hired for a job before she could even get the legal documents to work in the country..while i met a Dark skin black chick..who goes to school here..i think she is from some island..saint Martin i believe it's called...she has documentation but no luck finding work..she has been looking for about 7 months...


I would agree with Repatriate that Blacks around the world should stop looking for people usually White skinned to do something for them but to do it themselves.

Black Brazilians are behind demanding equality in the workplace but that's coming, there's a fundamental cultural delay between here and Brazil. You're American, you know basically what happen with Civil Rights, why not become the point man in fixing some of these long cultural issues there?

That's why most expat sites you'll find will suggest that if you're bold enough to venture overseas then you have what it takes to start your own business and I tend to agree.

You have knowledge of business and how its suppose to be run just by being an employee of an American company.

Your wife is native Brazilian and can get you through the process. I'm tired of working for people especially in low wage jobs, that is why I am building websites here. I want my social life to myself and not worry about money. I also may work for a hostel we'll see in exchange for rent, that will save about $300US a month.

Did you see the video of the Angolan who came to Brazil (Sao Paulo) for a better life and met with similar stuff to what you talk about? He opened his own little bar.

He also married a local.

Here's a podcast of a guy from California who had experience working for a restaurant but never owned/ran one, opened up a very popular bistro in Florianopolis - http://www.liveinbrazil.org/6/

He married a Brazilian as well but back in California where they met.

You married a local, use it to your advantage, most people are not that lucky and have to use lawyers to get through the bureaucracy faster.

Haven't you already seen something that is poorly run by US standards? You should be able to improve on that quite easily...
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Postby djfourmoney » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:53 am

kai1275 wrote:
Repatriate wrote:There's been a big decrease in well paid expat positions overseas especially in Asia because the skill gap is closing. There are a few articles about this situation in Hong Kong. Why would some multinational or even domestic corp. hire some white expat engineer for 2-3x the salary along with visa, cultural, and attitude problems when they can get an equivalently skilled local who studied abroad? You ever wonder where all those Chinese students with student visas go if they can't get a job in the U.S. ? They go back home right into those entry level jobs where their foreign degree carries some prestige.

I hear stories of people in China hiring white expats as meat puppets to show off how big time they are but the salaries aren't anything special. It's just face value and that novelty wears thin as corporations focus more on the bottom line and efficiency.


Yep. The skill gap is closing BIG TIME! Thanks to certain multinational companies and corporate greed not having any loyalty to any country, especially the whorish USA. My children will not have the skill and experience advantages I have if they work in my field.

Also you are 100% correct about the foreign students. Many of them go back to China and make BIG money with that shiny American University degree. More money than if they were to stay here and hoof it with the other Americans. Only the liberal-minded/very religious/westernized ones try to stay here after school. Rich Chinese live like kings back in China, with that nice job. Their parent's Guanxi (connections) make them even more filthy rich.


The skill gap closed because of Americans and Europeans chasing wealth building opportunities and the Government's investment in education.

These things are largely NOT happening in Latin America, there is still quite a large skills/knowledge gap.

That's why many say the American Dream has moved South...
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Postby djfourmoney » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:58 am

skateboardstephen wrote:
Repatriate wrote:Btw, I do think it's a big mistake for someone to just go abroad and rely on teaching english with no other income to back it up. Teaching english should not be a career pursuit unless you plan on getting personal experience and fun time abroad. Or you plan on taking it far with a license from your home country and getting into the international schools. Using it as a life support to find other opportunities is fine but from what i've seen way too many guys just get by with it. I know Ladislav has managed to do well with it but he goes to Saudi Arabia and places like that where the pay is much higher.


I see what you are trying to say..but that still does not let some of these countries off the hook in my opinion..especially when the people in your target country seem to live quite well in your country..and have a much lower unemployment rate in the country you want to live in.....we let 1 million legal immigrants into the U.S. a year ,that is not including the illegals..and they get work in American companies with out having to rely on teaching a language, while 40 million Americans just stopped looking for work all together but Dominicans keep pouring into the U.S....In Philadelphia i was meeting new immigrants ever time i turned around and i even trained some of them at Burlington coat factory distribution center in Spanish to do jobs that Americans would and should be doing...which is also full of other immigrants working..while the unemployment rate for Americans is highly unacceptable...Plus in Brazil where i am at they also make it really hard for Foreigners to open businesses..and if you do...you have to hire Natives..you can't even provide work for people from your home country ...like other immigrants do when they get to the U.S.


Why would you need to hire Americans??? You can hire them as managers to help you train your staff, you don't need them as grunt employees.

You came from a low level, low skills job. Even I have a permit to drive forklifts but warehouse jobs are dominated by legal immigrants, 2nd gen immigrants and illegals because warehouses don't pay well. Without a car, most of them are 35-40 miles of here and there's no way I can get there by public transportation.

On top of all that, after hearing about working conditions in Amazon and Walmart warehouses, no thanks. That's typically who's hiring these days and they have a high turnover rate.

I am not saying I worked jobs better than that, but you shouldn't expect anything different than what you experienced. I actually like these low expectation jobs, I do my job and do it well, they leave me alone.
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Postby Repatriate » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:01 am

djfourmoney wrote: The skill gap closed because of Americans and Europeans chasing wealth building opportunities and the Government's investment in education.

These things are largely NOT happening in Latin America, there is still quite a large skills/knowledge gap.

That's why many say the American Dream has moved South...

If there is no domestic brain bank to fuel a tech or high skill boom then Latin America will just remain a commodities driven region. This still limits expat positions to those that are primarily commodities related. The irony is that those commodities are fueling development for countries that are trying to move up from the second world in asia. That's basically what the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, China) coalition is all about. This is still a much better position for those people than the old world order of western Europe and North America sucking all resources away to fuel extravagant lifestyles.

I think the middle class crunch in the west was inevitable when the global scales are being balanced. It's the future really..a leveling of the playing field. Now it's up to Latin America to decide if it wants to go beyond commodities and try to develop along similar lines. It can easily take cues from the asian countries and do both. The blueprints are there.
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Postby djfourmoney » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:07 am

kai1275 wrote:
mguy wrote:
kai1275 wrote:Nice thread going on here. Very interesting stuff.

I will throw a few bones in too.

Teaching English in China while black? It's possible. some do well, some do not. It's luck and location dependent. As a whole Chinese schools typically require a white European looking person to teach English. This is VERY common knowledge. The reason why is this. The parents are dumb quite often, and will make demands for their money to be given back if they find out the teacher is not a white guy. Would you like to be told in Mandarin, "How can this black devil teach my son English! He is not white!" I read a story about a black English teacher in China getting chased out of a school by parents. You would be far far more likely to see this in a more rural area. If you teach English there, look for English teaching for grown people. Like at a training center if you can. The better paying ones for universities, etc. are tougher to get for any non-white person (asian/chinese included!).


As for that Engineer stuff, Mguy is right. Entry level engineers are a dime a dozen big time. Indian ones with masters are even more numerous. You better have had 3-5 internships before graduating from college before coming out and have at least around a 3.5GPA or you are in for a major surprise. Also do not hold your breath on getting a PE quickly either. You will need like 3-5 years at least of industry experience before you can even test for that credential. You will be waiting a while before going abroad if that is your plan. You might as well sow oats in the US and bring a wife back like I did if that PE means that much to you. I have alot of credentials and experience for what I do as an IT consultant, and that makes it alot tougher to just leave the US, just to get shitty a** pay in some other f***ed up country. My only realistic choices, are to go to another anglo country if I want to even have a chance of making similar or more money. If you get comfortable enough to get a PE, you might get stuck too. Quite the Catch 22 eh?


Will you please add you ethnicity just for discussion sake.

Also as an IT consultant what are the odds of relocating to Europe say France or some other first world country outside the Anglo-sphere? Do they have enough scarcity there to need your skills. Why isnt that a popular option that isn't discussed..


I am a black american. I am native american mixed and some Italian, but black looking enough that most don't notice that for the most part.

Moving to Europe is an option if America becomes a literal shithole or hellhole. Either that or we are moving to China. My skillsets have very little market in a way in China, but I know enough areas of IT to make a University there angry if I taught Chinese locals there if I opened my own school. I actually had this as a backup plan if I could not get my wife back here. Opening your own company in China is toooo easy in a way. China is more of an entrepreneur's paradise compared to America. Of course I would have the company in my wife's name or her dad's.... I could do it myself, but I'd rather concentrate on other aspects of that and draw less attention to myself in the process and use their guanxi (connections).

As for Europe, the demand for my expertise, is probably the same as the US (depending upon the country), more or less. the pay is just as high if not much higher because of my level of specialty. The only challenge would be how to market myself and get all the appropriate permits, etc. (red tape) I have little time to myself as it is. I would only read heavily into this if I was forced into doing so. Not to mention the EU is expensive as f**k. Moving there would not be cheap at all.


Becomes? It already is, its just not shitty to start with like some 3rd world countries. When new EU members start getting investments from outside the country, you usually have well educated German contactors come in and lay pavements or drill tunnels. Germans have a well deserved reputation for high quality.

You don't have this in much of Asia or Latin America. Asias has money to spend and contract out American or European design companies, construction firms and architects, just look up any big job from the series Extreme Engineering. Latin America; if the money can get past the corruption and cronyism, it might have a chance to do something else.

You are correct about high skill labor being in demand in Europe, especially Germany. Germanguy will scream its a farce. Its not, how many people does he know which Engineering degrees? Likely none, maybe some internet programing degree and there is plenty of Germans with those in Berlin that have a hard time finding a job.

Again its jobs people typically don't educate themselves for and don't think about is the positions that need to be filled. Why? Its because these jobs won't get you laid just by mentioning your job title....

I keep saying it, men make choices based not on income but on sex and how much it will get them. For the few men like yourself that have chosen Engineering, that is typically nerdy/geeky but that doesn't mean YOU have to act like a nerd or a geek. Its just a job, not a lifestyle.
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Postby Contrarian Expatriate » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:11 am

I'm losing my patience with guys who aspire to move abroad to teach English. Is that all you have to offer?

Men of respect, minority or not, should be working their rears off in the US preparing for life abroad. After 10 to 15 years of hard work, saving, and periodic exploratory travel, the target countries should be found.

Opening a business of some sort should be the goal.

I see men from many other countries drop into a new place and soon after open up a shop, or restaurant, or a service of some kind. None of them ran businesses in their home countries, and none were particularly educated. They start out learning a business model from the bottom of the barrel, but they gain expertise, contacts, and management skill enough to go it alone.

The typical American man who wishes to expat feels that his only real option is to teach ESL. That is a worn-out approach and one that signifies lack of grit, imagination, and general worth.

Small business is the route to take for income abroad, not teaching some course at minimum wage. If you think that you will have high status with local women as an ESL teacher, think how much more you would have as an entrepreneur.

Think bigger....
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