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Expat Minority Males pt.2 - Looks and Ranking in the USA

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Expat Minority Males pt.2 - Looks and Ranking in the USA

Postby mguy » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:47 pm

This is a continuation of Expatriation thread for Minority Guys:

Now we talk about the variables/reasons involved in expatriation and we will use a live case. The below post is a recurring theme in American as life as a minority guy. This black guy's case is typical here in HA.

djeanp7898 wrote:
I'm 35 years old, 6'5" tall, handsome, athletic, and intellectual, however I still suffer from the same issues. For those of you who think I get approached a lot because of my looks and height, think again.


here

The board basically advised him to move to Brazil with the caveat of not expecting the world. Pretty standard. My reply to this was

mguy wrote:
When blacks from USA are concerned the OP is ranked a 5 in the USA. When blacks from Brazil are concerned the OP is ranked an 8 in Brazil.

5 vs 8

This is huge. Why settle to be a 5 when you are naturally an 8.

As a Fil-Am I have the same effect when I go to the Phils, I get higher quality girls consistently and the attraction is noticeable even before I talk (the give away that i'm American). In states-side I'm pushed down a couple of points as there is competition from other perceived higher valued race (white) and operating within this environment consistently hurts my chances with the hotter babes of my own race. That hot filipina in the states is harder for me to get than an equally hot filipina living in the Philippines, based purely on my look.


Why is that?

It's been largely established that in the USA there is a standard of beauty that happens to agree with the white look. Thus, ethnic males whose looks deviate from that established look are ranked lower. The more your looks deviate (ie. a really chinese looking chinese guy or really african looking african guy) the lower your rank in the scale. However, interestingly, when you move abroad the white male look is deemphesized and there will be a local standard of beauty that will more resemble your look. This relativeness allows ethnic-American males to find and enjoy their true dating value in the dating pool based on looks by expatriating.


Here is a bell chart curve I created. I know it's crude but I hope to get my point across.

Image

As you can see, a change in environment changes your dating rank based on looks alone. Imagine that red line as a 6 (top image) then after an environment change it shifts to an 8. As a new 8 you are able date more attractive women... NATURALLY.

If you are younger cat who still have youthful looks, please really take a look at this and understand the dynamic that is playing out. It might be shocking to some, especially to untraveled men, to know that they are actually better looking than what they think they are. And that they are entitled to a hotter class of females for simply existing. It's like being a white guy almost... but for minority men.. if that makes sense. :lol:
Last edited by mguy on Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
"So never refuse an invitation, never resist the unfamiliar, never fail to be polite and never outstay the welcome. Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it."

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Postby Rock » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:08 am

When I talk about dating handicaps a person can get by moving from country A to country B, this is one of the drivers - perceived relative physical attractiveness by host country females.

Some examples:

- As a decent but gentle looking clean cut white guy with no tatoos and regular neat dress, you may be deemed as boring and uninteresting in States but above average looking in Taiwan. One of the Shanghai soap operas I see sometimes has a foreign actor of normal Chinese size and height who styles very Chinese so doesn't stick-out that much. I would rate him 6 in USA. But his different colored hair and eyes give him subtle exotic appeal and helps him to stand-out. So he might get a 7 in China on looks alone however his dating pool would might be skewed - little chance with girls who won't date foreigner, extremely high chance with foreigner fetish girls, and with the remainder (race neutral or indifferent) he would fare better in China that USA because he's relatively better looking there. Of course there are many other factors besides looks which influence a girl's dating decisions but here we are focused on the physical aspects.

- As an average looking 5'8" NE Asian guy who fits the studious and well adjusted stereotype, you would have cards highly stacked in USA dating world. You would be at best considered a shortish 5 and struggle. But move to the Philippines and wow, you've become tall (at least 1SD above male mean) and have coveted light skin and good features. You become at least a 6 or likely a 7. Add to that you are considered very well-off just from the way you look.
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Postby mguy » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:36 am

I'm near 6ft tall and I have brown skin, moreno they call it. I am close in looks to a local concept of male-beauty found in the Phils. I feel I get 2 std deviation increase when I move to the Phils. I can actually be a playboy in the Phils without trying too hard.

This also applies to my Chinese-American friend. The quality of girls he gets in China are much much higher than the Chinese girls states-side (who ironically go for white dudes en masse). It's like minority guys in the USA are eating junk when somewhere else they would be eating foie de gras. A nation's standard of beauty, which is culture based, has lots to do with this.
"So never refuse an invitation, never resist the unfamiliar, never fail to be polite and never outstay the welcome. Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it."

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Postby Rock » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:45 am

mguy wrote:I'm near 6ft tall and I have brown skin, moreno they call it. I am close in looks to a local concept of male-beauty found in the Phils. I feel I get 2 std deviation increase when I move to the Phils. I can actually be a playboy in the Phils without trying too hard.

This also applies to my Chinese-American friend. The quality of girls he gets in China are much much higher than the Chinese girls states-side (who ironically go for white dudes en masse). It's like minority guys in the USA are eating junk when somewhere else they would be eating foie de gras. A nation's standard of beauty, which is culture based, has lots to do with this.


Understand, it ain't just minority guys in the States. Certain white guys fall into the same camp - can enjoy a 1-2 STD increase in perceived relative attractiveness just by moving to a new country.

OTH, some of the white guys Stateside who are popular due to their looks and styling might actually suffer a negative handicap in countries where douchebaggery are not as in lol.
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Postby mguy » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:08 am

Rock wrote:
mguy wrote:I'm near 6ft tall and I have brown skin, moreno they call it. I am close in looks to a local concept of male-beauty found in the Phils. I feel I get 2 std deviation increase when I move to the Phils. I can actually be a playboy in the Phils without trying too hard.

This also applies to my Chinese-American friend. The quality of girls he gets in China are much much higher than the Chinese girls states-side (who ironically go for white dudes en masse). It's like minority guys in the USA are eating junk when somewhere else they would be eating foie de gras. A nation's standard of beauty, which is culture based, has lots to do with this.


Understand, it ain't just minority guys in the States. Certain white guys fall into the same camp - can enjoy a 1-2 STD increase in perceived relative attractiveness just by moving to a new country.

OTH, some of the white guys Stateside who are popular due to their looks and styling might actually suffer a negative handicap in countries where douchebaggery are not as in lol.


Yes. But this is a given and widely known. Why say it in a thread made for minority men? All you gotta do if you are white is not screw up. The readership of HA are not the successful well-adjusted white dudes anyways (when they are old and unwanted ok fine but young and healthy?). :D We have minority men with awesome statistics who are doing poorly in the USA when they are considered prized stallions in other dating pools.
"So never refuse an invitation, never resist the unfamiliar, never fail to be polite and never outstay the welcome. Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it."

Like to read?Third World Hero
Like to see?3WorldHero -- Did he really just do that?

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Postby Rock » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:30 am

mguy wrote:
Rock wrote:
mguy wrote:I'm near 6ft tall and I have brown skin, moreno they call it. I am close in looks to a local concept of male-beauty found in the Phils. I feel I get 2 std deviation increase when I move to the Phils. I can actually be a playboy in the Phils without trying too hard.

This also applies to my Chinese-American friend. The quality of girls he gets in China are much much higher than the Chinese girls states-side (who ironically go for white dudes en masse). It's like minority guys in the USA are eating junk when somewhere else they would be eating foie de gras. A nation's standard of beauty, which is culture based, has lots to do with this.


Understand, it ain't just minority guys in the States. Certain white guys fall into the same camp - can enjoy a 1-2 STD increase in perceived relative attractiveness just by moving to a new country.

OTH, some of the white guys Stateside who are popular due to their looks and styling might actually suffer a negative handicap in countries where douchebaggery are not as in lol.


Yes. But this is a given and widely known. Why say it in a thread made for minority men? All you gotta do if you are white is not screw up. The readership of HA are not the successful well-adjusted white dudes anyways (when they are old and unwanted ok fine but young and healthy?). :D We have minority men with awesome statistics who are doing poorly in the USA when they are considered prized stallions in other dating pools.


mguy wrote:
Rock wrote:
mguy wrote:I'm near 6ft tall and I have brown skin, moreno they call it. I am close in looks to a local concept of male-beauty found in the Phils. I feel I get 2 std deviation increase when I move to the Phils. I can actually be a playboy in the Phils without trying too hard.

This also applies to my Chinese-American friend. The quality of girls he gets in China are much much higher than the Chinese girls states-side (who ironically go for white dudes en masse). It's like minority guys in the USA are eating junk when somewhere else they would be eating foie de gras. A nation's standard of beauty, which is culture based, has lots to do with this.


Understand, it ain't just minority guys in the States. Certain white guys fall into the same camp - can enjoy a 1-2 STD increase in perceived relative attractiveness just by moving to a new country.

OTH, some of the white guys Stateside who are popular due to their looks and styling might actually suffer a negative handicap in countries where douchebaggery are not as in lol.


Yes. But this is a given and widely known. Why say it in a thread made for minority men? All you gotta do if you are white is not screw up. The readership of HA are not the successful well-adjusted white dudes anyways (when they are old and unwanted ok fine but young and healthy?). :D We have minority men with awesome statistics who are doing poorly in the USA when they are considered prized stallions in other dating pools.


Because I think there is an implication (and statement to from your last post) here that is not necessarily true - that if you are white, all you gotta do is not screw up (and your dating life at home will be fine). Often untrue in my experience based opinion. In fact, growing up, I always imagined that my dating life would be a lot more fruitful if I could only be black. Grass always seems greener... You think decent looking white guys have it easy dating wise in States when they're young? Think again. And if by well-adjusted, you mean in a perverted modern American sort of sense, well then perhaps.

I've met some of the white readership. I met one of them, a poster here before, in Manila who is definitely better than average looking and youthful Jewish American guy of around 6 feet. Like many here, white and minority, he struggles back home in the States dating wise but enjoys a big dating handicap when he travels to certain foreign countries if what he related to me about his personal experience was accurate at all.
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Postby Repatriate » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:49 am

I kind of agree that it's generally not easy for anyone unless they fit a fairly specific status profile and personality that is popular with American women. We all know that unless you're a rock star, athlete, actor, or someone involved in entertainment in some way it's not easy. You can probably find and settle with a girlfriend but you won't have the wide range of quality women or relationships that you would being abroad. You can also subtract 2 maybe 3 pts from attraction if you're involved in something considered "nerdy" and "boring" like engineering or science.

Don't forget the U.S. is a country where the women are so difficult to deal with that men had to go out there and invent a whole social engineering system to deal with it (pickup) :lol:. Why didn't this trend start in any other country? Because it wasn't needed.

When you look at average PUA attendees you can get a good idea of which demographic has it tough. It's such a broad demographic that you realize it's kind of challenging across the board. You still have white majority attendees which sort of validates Rock's point about white guys and you have a lot of asians and people from the subcontinent (Indians, Pakistanis, etc..) as well. Interestingly enough I rarely hear about black people doing PUA i'm guessing it's mainly due to cost factors and the fact that black men seem to learn the basic principles from relatives/friends with game :lol

Asians are way way overrepresented in PUA in the U.S. though. I fear that a lot of guys are throwing money at stuff that should be disseminated widely as free information. Unfortunately, a lot of asian-americans are working with zero social skills. Plus they are stuck in the mindset that unless they succeed with everything in the U.S. then they are considered failures. They lose all focus on making themselves happy. When you think about it the whole concept of "happier abroad" might as well be tailor made for asian-american males. It's a demo that usually has a higher than average income and usually possesses skill sets which can be bring value world wide so expatriating should be easy. Yet many languish in sub-par existence in America stuck in their own closed box.
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Postby mguy » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:16 am

One's race has a correlation with dating success. If you want to debunk that statement then we will open a thread. I'll let the readers personal experience on this color their thoughts.

Either way, the poster, the black guy, who has an electrical degree 6'5 and is relatively good looking is doing poorly in the states. Since the caliber of minority men here are usually high we can go more into an abstract discussion.

Think of a society's standard of beauty as an object. This object, the standard of beauty, has mass. With mass there's gravity. This pulls those that are closer to it at a stronger force. If you are a close approximation of the standard of beauty in a given platform the more of "looks" you are awarded since you are closer. But remember, there is one dominant standard of beauty but MANY standards of beauty each with different pulls depending on their mass (importance) in each environment.

With expatriation, or change of environment, the standard of beauty objects change their mass (importance). Below the Sigma males are males that have non-mainstream looks, in US environment they are far from the dominant std of beauty object so they are given less "looks" award. However, in other environments, the standard of beauty object is closer to these males thus resulting in more "looks" points.

This is not hard conceptually but here's a drawing representation.


Image

The third is basically the same as #2 but I wanted to account that since white is the global standard of beauty (for reasons not going to be discussed here) they still get that plus point represented by the link.
"So never refuse an invitation, never resist the unfamiliar, never fail to be polite and never outstay the welcome. Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it."

Like to read?Third World Hero
Like to see?3WorldHero -- Did he really just do that?

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Postby djfourmoney » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:31 am

Rock wrote:
mguy wrote:
Rock wrote:
mguy wrote:I'm near 6ft tall and I have brown skin, moreno they call it. I am close in looks to a local concept of male-beauty found in the Phils. I feel I get 2 std deviation increase when I move to the Phils. I can actually be a playboy in the Phils without trying too hard.

This also applies to my Chinese-American friend. The quality of girls he gets in China are much much higher than the Chinese girls states-side (who ironically go for white dudes en masse). It's like minority guys in the USA are eating junk when somewhere else they would be eating foie de gras. A nation's standard of beauty, which is culture based, has lots to do with this.


Understand, it ain't just minority guys in the States. Certain white guys fall into the same camp - can enjoy a 1-2 STD increase in perceived relative attractiveness just by moving to a new country.

OTH, some of the white guys Stateside who are popular due to their looks and styling might actually suffer a negative handicap in countries where douchebaggery are not as in lol.


Yes. But this is a given and widely known. Why say it in a thread made for minority men? All you gotta do if you are white is not screw up. The readership of HA are not the successful well-adjusted white dudes anyways (when they are old and unwanted ok fine but young and healthy?). :D We have minority men with awesome statistics who are doing poorly in the USA when they are considered prized stallions in other dating pools.


mguy wrote:
Rock wrote:
mguy wrote:I'm near 6ft tall and I have brown skin, moreno they call it. I am close in looks to a local concept of male-beauty found in the Phils. I feel I get 2 std deviation increase when I move to the Phils. I can actually be a playboy in the Phils without trying too hard.

This also applies to my Chinese-American friend. The quality of girls he gets in China are much much higher than the Chinese girls states-side (who ironically go for white dudes en masse). It's like minority guys in the USA are eating junk when somewhere else they would be eating foie de gras. A nation's standard of beauty, which is culture based, has lots to do with this.


Understand, it ain't just minority guys in the States. Certain white guys fall into the same camp - can enjoy a 1-2 STD increase in perceived relative attractiveness just by moving to a new country.

OTH, some of the white guys Stateside who are popular due to their looks and styling might actually suffer a negative handicap in countries where douchebaggery are not as in lol.


Yes. But this is a given and widely known. Why say it in a thread made for minority men? All you gotta do if you are white is not screw up. The readership of HA are not the successful well-adjusted white dudes anyways (when they are old and unwanted ok fine but young and healthy?). :D We have minority men with awesome statistics who are doing poorly in the USA when they are considered prized stallions in other dating pools.


Because I think there is an implication (and statement to from your last post) here that is not necessarily true - that if you are white, all you gotta do is not screw up (and your dating life at home will be fine). Often untrue in my experience based opinion. In fact, growing up, I always imagined that my dating life would be a lot more fruitful if I could only be black. Grass always seems greener... You think decent looking white guys have it easy dating wise in States when they're young? Think again. And if by well-adjusted, you mean in a perverted modern American sort of sense, well then perhaps.

I've met some of the white readership. I met one of them, a poster here before, in Manila who is definitely better than average looking and youthful Jewish American guy of around 6 feet. Like many here, white and minority, he struggles back home in the States dating wise but enjoys a big dating handicap when he travels to certain foreign countries if what he related to me about his personal experience was accurate at all.


White men, average to above average looking WILL have a hard time dating here. I have seen it... My boy Rob is considered attractive by Super Duper White man standards and White women loved him, but he was attracted too and successful with women of Color, usually Latin or African-American.

So I have seen what's possible if your considered attractive by 80% of the female population.

On the other hand, I know plenty of guys that have struggled mightily. So to compete; They go to the gym, get deeply involved skin care and keeping their hair neat and clean.

Sometimes this works, other times it doesn't. You are right, the douchebag phenomenon really doesn't work outside of America, but works well inside and is the basis of PUA (IMHO).

Your value goes up in Latin America especially, I'd say more than Asia because Latin women want to be apart of White culture and have half White children -

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/sailer_la.htm, http://www.isteve.com/ImportingMexicanInequality.htm, http://www.isteve.com/HowLatinoIntermar ... uality.htm

As I said in another thread, look at any Soap Opera in Latin America -

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRQqPCcHPN8[/youtube]

Remember save for Argentina, Brazil and Venezuela the vast majority of Latin Americans are short and medium to dark skin...
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Postby Repatriate » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:30 am

mguy wrote:One's race has a correlation with dating success. If you want to debunk that statement then we will open a thread. I'll let the readers personal experience on this color their thoughts.

No need to debunk I fully agree with what you say about race playing a significant role. I was just saying that in general it's just not that easy across the board with American women. So even though your average white American male may be at the "standard" or at the neutral level of attraction they still need plenty of other unique attributes to even qualify for half-way decent looking women. For minorities that gap is just much more severe..since the race disadvantage is really serious in the U.S. when it comes to romance.


With expatriation, or change of environment, the standard of beauty objects change their mass (importance). Below the Sigma males are males that have non-mainstream looks, in US environment they are far from the dominant std of beauty object so they are given less "looks" award. However, in other environments, the standard of beauty object is closer to these males thus resulting in more "looks" points.

The attraction changes but so do the ratios of good looking women. I really do believe the well traveled expat romance/sex hot spots in the world have a healthier % of good looking women, period. The diet, lifestyle, etc.. all plays a big role in how the women look. In the U.S. you may find a concentration of good looking women in some cities like NY, LA, or Miami but the baseline "5" in the U.S. is one of those obese soccer mom types. Plus the urban/suburban sprawl is designed so you have to go to very specific nightlife or entertainment venues to even see hot young women in any significant quantity. Whereas a 5 in let's say bangkok would easily get a one or two pt bump in most U.S. cities.

Just being where i'm at now in the U.S. it's pretty rare that I see a attractive woman anywhere. I'm in a big metropolitan area (albeit in the suburbs) and they just aren't around in any significant quantity. This is quite unlike Bangkok where every place you go to has a pretty good ratio of head turners.

Plus I see way more concentrations of young men hanging out together doing things like playing ball, shopping, and eating. The social environment is really off-putting to me.
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Postby Maverick » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:27 am

Mboy, White guys really don't have it as easy as you think in the US. Many of us have flaws as well that make us undateable according to many women (height, personality, looks, lack of education, etc). I think you seriously underestimate how picky AW truly are.

With that said, I do believe that ANYONE can get a lot of girls in the US. But it requires TONS of work (building up social circles, playing the numbers, etc). In my opinion, AW are not worth that much work. But it is possible for any man of any race to achieve.

Personally, I'd prefer to be another race as opposed to being short (I'm 5'6). At least your race is looked at as a positive (or at least neutral) in some places. No matter where I go, my height will be something that I will have to overcome.

[quote=mboy]Yes. But this is a given and widely known. Why say it in a thread made for minority men? All you gotta do if you are white is not screw up. The readership of HA are not the successful well-adjusted white dudes anyways (when they are old and unwanted ok fine but young and healthy?). :D We have minority men with awesome statistics who are doing poorly in the USA when they are considered prized stallions in other dating pools. [/quote]
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Re: Expat Minority Males pt.2 - Looks and Ranking in the USA

Postby Chad114 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:47 am


As a Fil-Am I have the same effect when I go to the Phils, I get higher quality girls consistently and the attraction is noticeable even before I talk (the give away that i'm American). In states-side I'm pushed down a couple of points as there is competition from other perceived higher valued race (white) and operating within this environment consistently hurts my chances with the hotter babes of my own race. That hot filipina in the states is harder for me to get than an equally hot filipina living in the Philippines, based purely on my look.
Why is that?


How do you know it's purely your look and not your American status?

It's been largely established that in the USA there is a standard of beauty that happens to agree with the white look. Thus, ethnic males whose looks deviate from that established look are ranked lower. The more your looks deviate (ie. a really chinese looking chinese guy or really african looking african guy) the lower your rank in the scale. However, interestingly, when you move abroad the white male look is deemphesized and there will be a local standard of beauty that will more resemble your look. This relativeness allows ethnic-American males to find and enjoy their true dating value in the dating pool based on looks by expatriating.


Personally, I think the trend is toward whiteness. Check out Philippine TV(where half white.filipinos rule ) or worse Latin American(where the Aryan looks reign) Soap operas. The whiter looking the more beautiful. Most of the population DOES NOT look like what is broadcasted on the airwaves.




Here is a bell chart curve I created. I know it's crude but I hope to get my point across.

Image

As you can see, a change in environment changes your dating rank based on looks alone. Imagine that red line as a 6 (top image) then after an environment change it shifts to an 8. As a new 8 you are able date more attractive women... NATURALLY.

If you are younger cat who still have youthful looks, please really take a look at this and understand the dynamic that is playing out. It might be shocking to some, especially to untraveled men, to know that they are actually better looking than what they think they are. And that they are entitled to a hotter class of females for simply existing. It's like being a white guy almost... but for minority men.. if that makes sense. :lol:
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Postby Chad114 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:52 am

Maverick wrote:Mboy, White guys really don't have it as easy as you think in the US. Many of us have flaws as well that make us undateable according to many women (height, personality, looks, lack of education, etc). I think you seriously underestimate how picky AW truly are.

With that said, I do believe that ANYONE can get a lot of girls in the US. But it requires TONS of work (building up social circles, playing the numbers, etc). In my opinion, AW are not worth that much work. But it is possible for any man of any race to achieve.

Personally, I'd prefer to be another race as opposed to being short (I'm 5'6). At least your race is looked at as a positive (or at least neutral) in some places. No matter where I go, my height will be something that I will have to overcome.




Maverick where on this planet could you go and your race not be seen as a positive over a black man?

I think Trayvon Martin would have preferred your height over his race...
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Postby mguy » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:58 pm

Excellent responses. In latin-america and Philippines, who broadcast the white image, there is usually a local look that is popular among the masses. Go check it.

Maverick,

You are 5'6 and white. This handicap is making you feel like a minority then. I hope it doesnt make you bitter, I hope it makes you understand the plight of minority men, and I hope you get to a country with shorter average height.
"So never refuse an invitation, never resist the unfamiliar, never fail to be polite and never outstay the welcome. Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it."

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Postby kai1275 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:03 pm

Maverick wrote:Mboy, White guys really don't have it as easy as you think in the US. Many of us have flaws as well that make us undateable according to many women (height, personality, looks, lack of education, etc). I think you seriously underestimate how picky AW truly are.

With that said, I do believe that ANYONE can get a lot of girls in the US. But it requires TONS of work (building up social circles, playing the numbers, etc). In my opinion, AW are not worth that much work. But it is possible for any man of any race to achieve.

Personally, I'd prefer to be another race as opposed to being short (I'm 5'6). At least your race is looked at as a positive (or at least neutral) in some places. No matter where I go, my height will be something that I will have to overcome.

[quote=mboy]Yes. But this is a given and widely known. Why say it in a thread made for minority men? All you gotta do if you are white is not screw up. The readership of HA are not the successful well-adjusted white dudes anyways (when they are old and unwanted ok fine but young and healthy?). :D We have minority men with awesome statistics who are doing poorly in the USA when they are considered prized stallions in other dating pools.


You are right. Some white guys are not good enough for a pretty white AW. How do you fix that? Go to another country with white women and get one of those. No one should date an AW, especially anyone on this website! Why is that even worth discussing? Just because BAW was banned from the forums does not mean, the ban was lifted! :P
kai1275
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