Discuss and talk about any general topic.
http://www.rooshv.com/the-contradiction ... nal-values
The Contradiction Of Pursuing Casual Sex While Advocating For Traditional Values
There is an argument floating around that goes like this: Iâ€™m just as bad as feminists in destroying Western civilization because I advise men to pursue easy sex instead of seeking marriage. How can I reconcile the fact that I advocate for â€œtraditional sex rolesâ€ when my tactics can be used for pumping and dumping women all over the world? The answer is that I, along with all other men, are not given a choice in the matter.
Imagine fifty years ago that only boxing existed as a form of street combat. The rules of boxing include using only your fists, not hitting below the belt, and not wrestling. All street fights were done by men who followed these rules. Then suddenly a group of men broke the rules and started implementing wrestling moves on the street. The boxers were dismayed by this change but still wanted to fight by the book, with honor. However, they expectantly started to lose more fights. Then even more fighters learned not only wrestling, but martial arts and Brazilian jujitsu. Now the boxers were getting beat most of the time because they had less ways to attack than their opponent. If they were forced to the ground, they were essentially defenseless.
Men are boxers. We came into the arena with our beta provider method of combat, but decades of societal change has made that useless on desirable women, especially when you consider that young women in America now earn much more than men in major cities. That left us with three choices:
1. Stop fighting. Many men have chosen this either voluntarily through MGTOW and soliciting prostitution or involuntarily through celibacy. They have failed to adapt counterattacks to new ways of fighting.
2. Learn new fighting styles. Men have learned game and sought to understand the true nature of women in order to bed them. They have decided to solve the problem through analysis and effort.
3. Leave to a place where boxing is still the main fighting style. Men have expatriated to societies where traditional sex roles are more or less intact and their boxing ability still leads to victory more often than not.
For men stuck in America, even if they want to settle down in a traditional manner, they will find it nearly impossible to find a young, fertile beauty in her prime who wants to do the same. He may get lucky if heâ€™s religious and meets a girl through church, but this scenario doesnâ€™t happen in Americas coastal cities where women want to have fun with cock riding until their 30′s. He can learn game and successfully use it to get a wife, but even if he â€œwinsâ€ the match and walks down the wedding aisle, the awfully corrupt boxing judges (i.e., the government and culture) will always call the bout in the womanâ€™s favor by encouraging her to use the punitive divorce system in the case sheâ€™s not 100% happy at all times. You only live once, theyâ€™ll tell her, so wreck your family.
A popular manosphere saying is that women are gatekeepers to sex and men are gatekeepers to commitment. I wish this was an absolute truth, but itâ€™s not. As a collective, women are often gatekeepers to both sex and commitment. Most men reading right now can surely attest to their failed attempts to secure commitment from women they slept with, and if you poll the entire population of men, you may find that they are the initiators of monogamous relationships more often than women. It only makes sense for this to be true: it is way more damaging for a man to have his woman sleep with another man and get cuckolded than the other way around. The 0.5% of the population who are skilled players and have more say with commitment donâ€™t put a dent into this common reality. As a sex, men have very little say in determining the relationship dynamic.
The only reason we learned game is because women signaled to us that they just want casual sex. Weâ€™re extracting easy sex from women who want easy sex. Rest assured youâ€™re not one-night standing girls who want a baby in the next year. No girl is crying because you didnâ€™t call back after a drunken romp in the hopes you would be her husband. These easy girls prefer the one-night stand and they prefer to be your f**k buddy. Donâ€™t kid yourself into thinking your game or fast sex desire is creating your successâ€”women have placed their preferred options on the table and men are simply reacting in a way that gets them a piece of the pie before itâ€™s all gone.
Women initiate while men react, so to say that my advice is hurting the culture is actually backwards. My advice is a scavenger response to get something out of the sexual rations that women are putting out.
â€œBut Roosh, you go to countries like Poland and donâ€™t marry the girls you have sex with. Youâ€™re pumping and dumping them, too! Youâ€™re ruining the world!â€
Foreign women share many features with their American counterparts. Women who I have sex with in Eastern Europe use me for shallow sex possibly more than I use them. In other words, I have failed to get into relationships with girls I wanted because they preferred something less meaningful. Iâ€™m talking about Poland, Croatia, and Lithuania, not Washington DC. Iâ€™ve described the phenomenon of Westernization in the past, and while girls in Eastern Europe are more likely to seek marriage before they hit 30, youâ€™ll be surprised how many simply want some fun in the sack until they establish their career or get bored of partying. Compared to American women, theyâ€™re just less overtly slutty about it, they start looking for husbands while still in their physical prime, and they maintain their feminine charm. For truly traditional women, it seems that only Muslim countries are left.
I almost wish I was rationalizing my behavior by explaining that Eastern European women like casual sex too. The last two beautiful girls I dated in Poland, who I met during the day outside of clubs, simply wanted to use me as a fuckbuddy to be scheduled in between their work and school obligations. Both were looking forward to upcoming travel and study abroad plans. They did not want a serious relationship with me, even though they enjoyed the sexual part of it.
It would be a nice fantasy for us men to believe that we have a say in relationships and sex. Itâ€™d be nice to think that our â€œalphaâ€ behavior and our game determines how a relationship can proceed, but often it doesnâ€™t. Weâ€™re just giving the girl what she has already decided on. Do you really think youâ€™re selling televisions to customers who came into the store with the intent to buy bicycles? The girl who falls in love with us wanted to fall in love with us, the girl who had fun with us wanted to just have fun with us, and so on. And even when a girl wants a bicycle, she still wants a certain kind of bicycle. This is why game is a numbers game, because girls are incredibly picky even when they are sexually available. The horniest girl in the club who decided on having sex will still have her pick of the litter and opt to get the best that she can.
As the dispensable sex, men will always respond to what women want, and if my extensive experiences with fornication are any indication, modern women want independence and careers over serious relationships with men. Believing that men like myself can cause a degradation of traditional roles is just giving us too much credit.
I'm sorry, but guys who go out there and bang as many random girls as possible ARE directly contributing to the degradation of traditional roles. How?
Because they are condoning slutism. They are partaking in slutism. They only care about getting laid and don't have the balls to enforce traditional female behavior.
If guys in general shunned and excommunicated sluts and refused to have anything to do with them, there would be a hell of a lot less sluts out there. But guys in general don't do that, because guys in general just want to get laid and drool all over the place any time some disgusting skank flashes a little bit of her skin.
Women do EXACTLY what men let them get away with. PUA's are only fooling themselves and shooting themselves in the foot.
"I'm sorry, but guys who go out there and bang as many random girls as possible ARE directly contributing to the degradation of traditional roles. How?"
How come there were not many sluts 50 or 150 years ago?
men have always tried to get sex as easy as they could but its woman who decide if and when it will happen. Dont blame men, we were always this way, its them who changed and we dont have any choice, pump and dump is all you can aim for with western women. Exceptions are rare and you probably don't know any.
Its like blaming drug dealer for your cocaine addiction
There weren't a lot of sluts 50+ years ago because MEN had set and enforced the rules of society that said it was a bad thing for a woman to be. Now the men of our society have handed over all the power to women and outright encourage slutty behavior by rewarding it, and lo and behold what happens? They all turn into sluts and flush society down the toilet. To me that proves two things:
1. Men need to rise above their primal urges and enforce the behaviors in society most conducive to making that society thrive. That is how we managed to create our entire civilization in the first place!
2. Women absolutely cannot be given any real power, because once they get it, everything goes to shit.
I put the blame square at 50/50 men/women. Men get the blame for handing over their power to women and reverting to neanderthal "fukk everything that moves" behavior, and women get the blame for taking their newfound power and absolutely wrecking everything that is good, pure, and holy in this world.
The only part of this I disagree with is the last paragraph. I blame men 100%. If you don't discipline children, whose fault is it if they turn into spoiled brats?
True, but if I truly believed that women were absolved of all responsibility and had no sense of morals or decency to do what's right, I'd never be able to trust one enough to marry and start a family with in the future.
It's a mistake to absolve women of any and all responsibility for their actions. They need to be held accountable and that's where men need to step in and do exactly that.
Children also need to be held accountable for their actions, though not quite to the level of adult women.
Children can only be held accountable for their actions when they are given proper guidance from their parents. Without proper guidance, they cannot be held accountable. The same applies to women who need proper guidance from society. Because modern women have no guidance or actually bad guidance, I cannot hold them accountable for their actions.
For this reason, one should never marry a woman from a modern feminist culture. In a non-feminist culture, women have some good guidance, so they can be wives. Once a woman is married, the husband should provide guidance.
I still don't understand *why* you would hold men accountable but not women. Is it because you feel that women are strictly following their instinctive behavior and don't possess the mental capacity to make any rational decisions on their own?
In that case I'd point to modern men who by and large are out there just trying to get their dicks wet instead of guiding these women. Would they too not also be following their base instinct and failing to make rational decisions, just like women? Therefore by the given logic, modern men should not be held accountable either.
Either everyone is accountable, or nobody is. If everyone takes their share of the blame, solutions can be found going forward. If nobody wants to take the blame, society will collapse going forward and we'll all revert to neanderthals until the bitter, bloody end.
Are you including children in this statement?
The reason I hold men accountable is because men have the required instincts to form a proper society while women do not. This has nothing to do with rationality. We are primates similar to chimps. As such, we are designed to be organized into tribes run by males. Because human males ran tribes, only men evolved an instinct for fairness. Women have no such instinct. Only men are capable of organizing a reasonable monogamous society based on the value of fairness.
No, only if men take full responsibility can solutions be found.
Modern society is beyond the point of no return, so collapse is inevitable. What men can do is to organize alternatives.
Not children, I mean all adults.
The whole point of civilization is to rise above our primal instincts for the good of all, not try to hide behind them.
I agree, but the act of properly guiding women will involve holding them accountable for their misdeeds. Just like you punish a child for misbehaving, that by definition is holding them accountable.
If a woman goes out and cheats on you, do you 100 percent absolve her of blame?
I fear you may be right, but we'll see how it all plays out.
The author should have continued the metaphor to show how even top fighters can end up.
I heard a commercial recently, featuring a very famous (former) wrestler ... hawking car title loans.
After many years of successfully taking punches, kicks, and the occasional chair, etc. in the ring, to earn his money, he lost most of it ($20MM) in one outside-the-ring loss.
To "stop fighting" is failure only if one's starting premise is that the modern (well-worn) "prize" is worth pursuing and/or you believe modern "culture" can be/is worth saving.
It's coming down like Building 7.
Yes. This is certainly true, unintended consequences and all. WHATGMG?
не поглеждай назад.
"Even an American judge is unlikely to award child support for imputed children." - FredOnEverything
We are all motivated by instinct. What civilization does is to combine the male instinct of fairness with reason to produce a fair society where conflicting instincts are suppressed.
Yes, just that accountability depends on guidance.
Both absolution and blame depend on accountability. So in this case, I blame society but I write her off as fatally tarnished.
I am not interested in being a passive observer. I want to focus on an alternative.
Well I feel that any being with a mind of its own is accountable for its own actions, regardless of instinct, regardless of programming, regardless of guidance or the lack thereof. One makes their own choices with their own free will and needs to be responsible and accountable for those choices, and it's a mistake that perpetuates all the problems we face today to do anything other than that.
We will just have to agree to disagree.
That's the whole point of going abroad, at least for me.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests