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Multiple Citizenships

Discuss and talk about any general topic.

Moderators: jamesbond, fschmidt

Postby djfourmoney » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:58 am

Rock wrote:
djfourmoney wrote:
Rock wrote:
djfourmoney wrote:Why would you want to change your name for different countries????????

Not sure why you would want to complicate your life more than it needs to be.

What is your goal for multiple citizenship? As I have said before, the majority of people only need residency to take advantage of most benefits.


1. Opening bank accounts overseas. A lot of banks have blacklisted USA citizens but don't always inquire into your other potential nationalities if you present an alternative passport/citizenship.

2. Having all the building blocks in place in case you ever need to quickly renounce US citizenship.

3. Having the right to stay in a country even if you get into trouble, perhaps by accident. Otherwise, your a** gets permanently deported right after your serve any jail/prison time you might owe. I know a guy who got deported from the country he grew up in but was just permanent resident cus he had a car accident which killed someone. PR status is very weak compared to citizenship. Don't be naive.

4. If you ever get sued in USA or even if IRS comes after you, that second citizenship and perhaps even a different name will be a huge deterrent. It's next to impossible for a private party to pursue you. If government came after you for tax debt or student debt, it would be a major pain in the a** for them and there's a good chance they would not bother pursuing it unless amount in question was millions of dollars.

OTOH, if you just have PR(s) in other countries, you can be forcibly repatriated by passport cancellation. So if the pursuing party can make that happen (and this will get easier in time), your country of residence will yank away your PR status as soon as you have no valid passport.


1) True most countries just require residency to get accounts, leases and such. Truth be told, if you keep your money in a international bank with branches in the country you are staying like Santander, you can do much of your banking without the extra fees if dealing with a different bank or out of network bank.

2) I see no reason to renounce your US citizenship, to be honest only White men talk like that or people that might be native Americans but are able to carry dual citizenship like being of Irish descent. As long as the US remains the military power it is and as long as it has the best State Dept/Liaison/Embassy Network there's no reason to consider having citizenship of some two bit country. I put before the court why Julian Assange who can't get out of the UK safely.

3) Johnny @Expat Wisdom told a similar story about some Brit who was rich and moved to Belize. He accidently hit a child, checked to see if the child was fine (he was on a bike) no external injuries anyway, but turns out the family filed charges and a warrant was issued for his arrest.

He had much of his wealth tied up in Belize. So he was able to get out of the country undetected but the majority of his wealth is stuck in Belize and he'll never get it.

The point here is carrying dual citizen, still being an American/US Citizen will prevent much of legal, trumped up shenanigans. Because countries fear not only the State Dept but the US Military.

However much longer the US still plays a dominate roll in Geo-Politics is up for debate I suppose but in the next 5-10 years I don't think its position will be diminished much.

4) Now why would the USA or IRS sue you? If you do your taxes right, there should be nothing to fear from the IRS. The problems comes from ignoring tax problems, not filing your taxes or some type of protest, which don't recommend because people have lost their homes fooling around with the IRS like that.

As I said my main concern is being detained, missing flights and that sort thing. Those are real, the other stuff is hyperbole unless you have six/seven digits behind your name.

IE cross those roads when you come to them.


You are looking at this from the perspective of a US citizen and resident who occasionally takes very short trips overseas. Your life is fully in the US.

But if you are a career expat who makes a living off investments in third countries (countries other than your citizenship or residency country) then US citizenship is a huge liability. Why? Because 1. you pay taxes on virtually all your incomes whereas without it, your income tax rate would be zero and b. a very high percentage of private/personal banks (those which give you access to liquid investments from around the world such as high yield bonds, structured products, and certain types of liquid hedge funds) will not take your business. I know this because I've been kicked out of three banks in the last 4 years just for being a US citizen. Being a US citizen has cost me a huge amount in terms of time, trouble, and financial cost. I would be much better off financially if it weren't for my US citizenship.

If my parents did not have illiquid assets tied up in the States, I would have renounced in order to naturalize in Taiwan. People like Julian Assange and Edward Snowden are huge fish. A regular guy who makes a living overseas is not. Enforcement resources are very limited, especially on the criminal side. Consider, even on US soil, only a handful of tax cheats ever get charged criminally. It's mostly about civil penalties, the money.

Over 30,000 US citizens with overseas accounts have been slapped with huge (oven confiscatory) fines since the US started aggressively attacking private banks who have US clients. That's why the banks don't want our business anymore. Many of these are unfortunate innocents.

Doing your taxes right is easy if you just punch a clock and work 9-5 in the US. But do you know how many tens of thousands of pages the US tax code has become. How do you account for forex gains and losses involving hundreds of transactions from arbitrage hedge funds with investments in 3 countries? What about if you are a Canadian resident and citizen who also happens to technically be American because you were born in Minnesota even though you've lived in Canada since childhood and never returned to the States. If you've had large financial accounts in your own name in Canada and didn't realize you were supposed to proactively report the details of each account to the US Treasury each year, you now owe the US Treasury and IRS a huge percentage of your financial wealth. Ignorance of the law does not excuse you. You assume the IRS and US income tax policy towards its non-resident citizens and other US persons is reasonable and fair. It's not!

Second citizenship and eventual renouncing of US citizenship is a real and practically viable solution for a significant number of middle class expats these days who wish to pursue a life offshore. But permanent residency status doesn't mean squat. Even if you live the rare country with no extradition or tax treaties with the US (eg Taiwan due to unique political situation vis-a-vis China), you are not shielded. All the US has to do is inform immigration policy of country you reside in that your passport has been revoked. In most cases, you will be arrested and quickly deported directly back to US.


No I am not, I am looking at it from people who live overseas...

Firstly about taxes. Even with the recent changes in the laws, if you make less than $92,700 you do not have to pay federal income tax. The other only requirement is spending more than 320 days outside of the country.

Second part first. That is easy if you maintain a residence outside of America and you have the usual, you know wife, children in school, etc.

Lastly on this issue; if you create various tax shelters like corporations do which you can do as an individual in the country you reside in. Besides why is important to dodge taxes anyway? You'll be paying taxes in the country of residence anyway. So you're exchanging a tax rate of 23% (which is the all taxes calculated for somebody that earns between $175K-$400K) for maybe 20% taxes because if you make six digits in any developing country you are in rarified air, IE top 2-5% of income earners.

That said most countries do not have infrastructure to chase around tax dodgers and then there's the way officials spend taxes usually lining their own pockets and other issues.

Paying taxes is the least of my concerns, it won't stop me from purchasing the things I want, even if I was paying taxes to both countries, its not a concern.

I would be making an investment in the country by starting businesses and providing jobs. I know banks have been threaten by Americans and don't want their money because they don't want the scrutiny. Umm kay now is that because you legitimately have investments or because we have a bunch of tax dodgers in both the United States and Europe because these people are greedy????

Everybody situation is different, I call renouncing an extreme case because most do not bother with it. The people I mentioned only seem to be big fish, the I know of lesser folk caught up with the IRS and SEC.

You're welcome to revoke yours, but given that Black life is worth less than zero; that is not my first choice, sorry.
djfourmoney
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Postby djfourmoney » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:19 am

Jester wrote:
djfourmoney wrote:
eurobrat wrote:
Residency is like a guest list at a club, while citizenship is like VIP status. If you're just a resident, in the government's eyes you're just a guest.



Even if I marry another foreign women Brazil, say a British woman. [b]If we have our first child in Brazil, we automatically become citizens. Anchor babies if you will[/b]; while Americans are up in arms over this, Brazilians don't give two sh*ts and yes you could likely find a few idiots who have a problem with it, but that's not the point and they are in the minority.

I don't have to renounce anything to get it, neither does she, as a subject of the Crown she can carry dual citizenship. Just by having a child which I want and she would want anyway, everybody gets two passports. We do and the kid does too.

On top of that, because we're Brazilian citizens we have open access to Portugal, which is a EU member state. Getting residency in Portugal will get you an EU passport.

So that's one kid, three passports each. US Citizen, Brazilian Citizen, EU Resident (after five years). Which is quite convenient because I much rather have my oldest child go to school in Europe for free than pay for an expensive private school in Brazil which compared to paying for private usually Catholic or Christian school in the US is much cheaper to do.

Because we speak English at home, they will be multi-lingual as well.

The weather in Southern Brazil is similar to Southern California and of course Portugal is a Mediterranean country, again similar weather.



DJ are you sure the parents get citizenship? Not just permanent residency?

Could you furnish us a link on this?


Citizenship because the child is a citizen by birth - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_nationality_law

Because Brazil was a Portuguese colony, as I said we can enter Portugal freely as well and can live there without going through any citizenship BS.

Dual Citizenship has been legal since 1994.

On Kevin's blog, that's how became a triple citizen. He's American, his wife is Danish, they met in Brazil. They married (Christians) and have their third of three children in Brazil. The youngest was born in Brazil, so she's a citizen by birth. Kevin is a citizen (father), but they don't allow dual citizenship in Denmark so she's just a resident. Because he married a EU citizen he has an EU passport as well.

The boys will become naturalized at some point since they have started school in Brazil.
djfourmoney
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Location: Los Angeles

Postby Jester » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:57 am

djfourmoney wrote:

DJ are you sure the parents get citizenship? Not just permanent residency?

Could you furnish us a link on this?



Citizenship because the child is a citizen by birth - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_nationality_law



NICE!!


Naturalization as a Brazilian citizen[edit]
Foreigners may apply for Brazilian citizenship if they meet the following criteria:
permanent residence in Brazil
4 (four) years of uninterrupted residence in Brazil[1]
ability to speak and write Portuguese
sufficient personal or family resources to support themselves
The residence requirement may be reduced in certain circumstances:
only one year's residence is required for those who have a Brazilian spouse, parent, or child



Heh heh heh!

Great find!
"Pick a point and go to it."
-- Dr John Hunsucker, speaking about canoeing on Georgia's Lake Lanier, with its irregular shape, and 1000 miles of meandering shoreline
Jester
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Location: Chiang Mai Thailand

Postby Rock » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:23 am

djfourmoney wrote:
Rock wrote:
djfourmoney wrote:
Rock wrote:
djfourmoney wrote:Why would you want to change your name for different countries????????

Not sure why you would want to complicate your life more than it needs to be.

What is your goal for multiple citizenship? As I have said before, the majority of people only need residency to take advantage of most benefits.


1. Opening bank accounts overseas. A lot of banks have blacklisted USA citizens but don't always inquire into your other potential nationalities if you present an alternative passport/citizenship.

2. Having all the building blocks in place in case you ever need to quickly renounce US citizenship.

3. Having the right to stay in a country even if you get into trouble, perhaps by accident. Otherwise, your a** gets permanently deported right after your serve any jail/prison time you might owe. I know a guy who got deported from the country he grew up in but was just permanent resident cus he had a car accident which killed someone. PR status is very weak compared to citizenship. Don't be naive.

4. If you ever get sued in USA or even if IRS comes after you, that second citizenship and perhaps even a different name will be a huge deterrent. It's next to impossible for a private party to pursue you. If government came after you for tax debt or student debt, it would be a major pain in the a** for them and there's a good chance they would not bother pursuing it unless amount in question was millions of dollars.

OTOH, if you just have PR(s) in other countries, you can be forcibly repatriated by passport cancellation. So if the pursuing party can make that happen (and this will get easier in time), your country of residence will yank away your PR status as soon as you have no valid passport.


1) True most countries just require residency to get accounts, leases and such. Truth be told, if you keep your money in a international bank with branches in the country you are staying like Santander, you can do much of your banking without the extra fees if dealing with a different bank or out of network bank.

2) I see no reason to renounce your US citizenship, to be honest only White men talk like that or people that might be native Americans but are able to carry dual citizenship like being of Irish descent. As long as the US remains the military power it is and as long as it has the best State Dept/Liaison/Embassy Network there's no reason to consider having citizenship of some two bit country. I put before the court why Julian Assange who can't get out of the UK safely.

3) Johnny @Expat Wisdom told a similar story about some Brit who was rich and moved to Belize. He accidently hit a child, checked to see if the child was fine (he was on a bike) no external injuries anyway, but turns out the family filed charges and a warrant was issued for his arrest.

He had much of his wealth tied up in Belize. So he was able to get out of the country undetected but the majority of his wealth is stuck in Belize and he'll never get it.

The point here is carrying dual citizen, still being an American/US Citizen will prevent much of legal, trumped up shenanigans. Because countries fear not only the State Dept but the US Military.

However much longer the US still plays a dominate roll in Geo-Politics is up for debate I suppose but in the next 5-10 years I don't think its position will be diminished much.

4) Now why would the USA or IRS sue you? If you do your taxes right, there should be nothing to fear from the IRS. The problems comes from ignoring tax problems, not filing your taxes or some type of protest, which don't recommend because people have lost their homes fooling around with the IRS like that.

As I said my main concern is being detained, missing flights and that sort thing. Those are real, the other stuff is hyperbole unless you have six/seven digits behind your name.

IE cross those roads when you come to them.


You are looking at this from the perspective of a US citizen and resident who occasionally takes very short trips overseas. Your life is fully in the US.

But if you are a career expat who makes a living off investments in third countries (countries other than your citizenship or residency country) then US citizenship is a huge liability. Why? Because 1. you pay taxes on virtually all your incomes whereas without it, your income tax rate would be zero and b. a very high percentage of private/personal banks (those which give you access to liquid investments from around the world such as high yield bonds, structured products, and certain types of liquid hedge funds) will not take your business. I know this because I've been kicked out of three banks in the last 4 years just for being a US citizen. Being a US citizen has cost me a huge amount in terms of time, trouble, and financial cost. I would be much better off financially if it weren't for my US citizenship.

If my parents did not have illiquid assets tied up in the States, I would have renounced in order to naturalize in Taiwan. People like Julian Assange and Edward Snowden are huge fish. A regular guy who makes a living overseas is not. Enforcement resources are very limited, especially on the criminal side. Consider, even on US soil, only a handful of tax cheats ever get charged criminally. It's mostly about civil penalties, the money.

Over 30,000 US citizens with overseas accounts have been slapped with huge (oven confiscatory) fines since the US started aggressively attacking private banks who have US clients. That's why the banks don't want our business anymore. Many of these are unfortunate innocents.

Doing your taxes right is easy if you just punch a clock and work 9-5 in the US. But do you know how many tens of thousands of pages the US tax code has become. How do you account for forex gains and losses involving hundreds of transactions from arbitrage hedge funds with investments in 3 countries? What about if you are a Canadian resident and citizen who also happens to technically be American because you were born in Minnesota even though you've lived in Canada since childhood and never returned to the States. If you've had large financial accounts in your own name in Canada and didn't realize you were supposed to proactively report the details of each account to the US Treasury each year, you now owe the US Treasury and IRS a huge percentage of your financial wealth. Ignorance of the law does not excuse you. You assume the IRS and US income tax policy towards its non-resident citizens and other US persons is reasonable and fair. It's not!

Second citizenship and eventual renouncing of US citizenship is a real and practically viable solution for a significant number of middle class expats these days who wish to pursue a life offshore. But permanent residency status doesn't mean squat. Even if you live the rare country with no extradition or tax treaties with the US (eg Taiwan due to unique political situation vis-a-vis China), you are not shielded. All the US has to do is inform immigration policy of country you reside in that your passport has been revoked. In most cases, you will be arrested and quickly deported directly back to US.


No I am not, I am looking at it from people who live overseas...

Firstly about taxes. Even with the recent changes in the laws, if you make less than $92,700 you do not have to pay federal income tax. The other only requirement is spending more than 320 days outside of the country.

Second part first. That is easy if you maintain a residence outside of America and you have the usual, you know wife, children in school, etc.

Lastly on this issue; if you create various tax shelters like corporations do which you can do as an individual in the country you reside in. Besides why is important to dodge taxes anyway? You'll be paying taxes in the country of residence anyway. So you're exchanging a tax rate of 23% (which is the all taxes calculated for somebody that earns between $175K-$400K) for maybe 20% taxes because if you make six digits in any developing country you are in rarified air, IE top 2-5% of income earners.

That said most countries do not have infrastructure to chase around tax dodgers and then there's the way officials spend taxes usually lining their own pockets and other issues.

Paying taxes is the least of my concerns, it won't stop me from purchasing the things I want, even if I was paying taxes to both countries, its not a concern.

I would be making an investment in the country by starting businesses and providing jobs. I know banks have been threaten by Americans and don't want their money because they don't want the scrutiny. Umm kay now is that because you legitimately have investments or because we have a bunch of tax dodgers in both the United States and Europe because these people are greedy????

Everybody situation is different, I call renouncing an extreme case because most do not bother with it. The people I mentioned only seem to be big fish, the I know of lesser folk caught up with the IRS and SEC.

You're welcome to revoke yours, but given that Black life is worth less than zero; that is not my first choice, sorry.


You still don’t get it. You are thinking in terms of an American wage earner, not an expat investor or someone who develops passive income sources overseas.

1. $92,700 exemption you refer to applies only to “earned incomeâ€￾, not investment income. Dividends, rents, capital gains, interest earned by US persons overseas are all taxed by the IRS with no matter where said investments are domiciled. Even if you earn just $25,000, they will tax it. No $92,700 exemption applies to non-wage type incomes.

Imagine two brothers, one is a British citizen and the other American. Both live in Thailand00 e. They each hold a Chinese government bond which pays annual interest of US$50,000 per year. The American has to declare that income to the IRS and will probably pay around $5,000 to $10,000 of tax on it depending on his particular circumstances. He will not pay any money to the Thai government or any other country. But the Brit will not be taxed by the UK, Thailand or any other country. He earns the income tax free. So net income of the American if $40,000 to $45,000 per year where the Brit in same exact boat pockets the full $50,000.

USA is probably the only developed country to tax worldwide income of it’s non-resident citizens.

2. I don’t get what point you are trying to make when you say, “Second part first. That is easy if you maintain a residence outside of America and you have the usual, you know wife, children in school, etc.â€￾

3. Majority of countries in the world do not tax what resident foreigners make in third countries. If you a citizen of Country A, reside in Country B, and earn Investment Income from assets domiciled in Country C, you generally do not have to pay any taxes to any governments. That is of course, unless Country A, B, or C happens to be USA.

4. Assuming US expats who wish to open overseas bank accounts are tax dodgers is what the US government has brainwashed so many sheeple in the States to believe. If you live overseas, it makes sense to at least have accounts in your country of residence. If you are an investor, then it makes sense to have lots of accounts in various countries
5. What do you mean Black life is worth less than zero? Your writing style in this whole post seems different than usual.
Rock
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Postby djfourmoney » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:21 am

Rock wrote:
djfourmoney wrote:
Rock wrote:
djfourmoney wrote:
Rock wrote:
djfourmoney wrote:Why would you want to change your name for different countries????????

Not sure why you would want to complicate your life more than it needs to be.

What is your goal for multiple citizenship? As I have said before, the majority of people only need residency to take advantage of most benefits.


1. Opening bank accounts overseas. A lot of banks have blacklisted USA citizens but don't always inquire into your other potential nationalities if you present an alternative passport/citizenship.

2. Having all the building blocks in place in case you ever need to quickly renounce US citizenship.

3. Having the right to stay in a country even if you get into trouble, perhaps by accident. Otherwise, your a** gets permanently deported right after your serve any jail/prison time you might owe. I know a guy who got deported from the country he grew up in but was just permanent resident cus he had a car accident which killed someone. PR status is very weak compared to citizenship. Don't be naive.

4. If you ever get sued in USA or even if IRS comes after you, that second citizenship and perhaps even a different name will be a huge deterrent. It's next to impossible for a private party to pursue you. If government came after you for tax debt or student debt, it would be a major pain in the a** for them and there's a good chance they would not bother pursuing it unless amount in question was millions of dollars.

OTOH, if you just have PR(s) in other countries, you can be forcibly repatriated by passport cancellation. So if the pursuing party can make that happen (and this will get easier in time), your country of residence will yank away your PR status as soon as you have no valid passport.


1) True most countries just require residency to get accounts, leases and such. Truth be told, if you keep your money in a international bank with branches in the country you are staying like Santander, you can do much of your banking without the extra fees if dealing with a different bank or out of network bank.

2) I see no reason to renounce your US citizenship, to be honest only White men talk like that or people that might be native Americans but are able to carry dual citizenship like being of Irish descent. As long as the US remains the military power it is and as long as it has the best State Dept/Liaison/Embassy Network there's no reason to consider having citizenship of some two bit country. I put before the court why Julian Assange who can't get out of the UK safely.

3) Johnny @Expat Wisdom told a similar story about some Brit who was rich and moved to Belize. He accidently hit a child, checked to see if the child was fine (he was on a bike) no external injuries anyway, but turns out the family filed charges and a warrant was issued for his arrest.

He had much of his wealth tied up in Belize. So he was able to get out of the country undetected but the majority of his wealth is stuck in Belize and he'll never get it.

The point here is carrying dual citizen, still being an American/US Citizen will prevent much of legal, trumped up shenanigans. Because countries fear not only the State Dept but the US Military.

However much longer the US still plays a dominate roll in Geo-Politics is up for debate I suppose but in the next 5-10 years I don't think its position will be diminished much.

4) Now why would the USA or IRS sue you? If you do your taxes right, there should be nothing to fear from the IRS. The problems comes from ignoring tax problems, not filing your taxes or some type of protest, which don't recommend because people have lost their homes fooling around with the IRS like that.

As I said my main concern is being detained, missing flights and that sort thing. Those are real, the other stuff is hyperbole unless you have six/seven digits behind your name.

IE cross those roads when you come to them.


You are looking at this from the perspective of a US citizen and resident who occasionally takes very short trips overseas. Your life is fully in the US.

But if you are a career expat who makes a living off investments in third countries (countries other than your citizenship or residency country) then US citizenship is a huge liability. Why? Because 1. you pay taxes on virtually all your incomes whereas without it, your income tax rate would be zero and b. a very high percentage of private/personal banks (those which give you access to liquid investments from around the world such as high yield bonds, structured products, and certain types of liquid hedge funds) will not take your business. I know this because I've been kicked out of three banks in the last 4 years just for being a US citizen. Being a US citizen has cost me a huge amount in terms of time, trouble, and financial cost. I would be much better off financially if it weren't for my US citizenship.

If my parents did not have illiquid assets tied up in the States, I would have renounced in order to naturalize in Taiwan. People like Julian Assange and Edward Snowden are huge fish. A regular guy who makes a living overseas is not. Enforcement resources are very limited, especially on the criminal side. Consider, even on US soil, only a handful of tax cheats ever get charged criminally. It's mostly about civil penalties, the money.

Over 30,000 US citizens with overseas accounts have been slapped with huge (oven confiscatory) fines since the US started aggressively attacking private banks who have US clients. That's why the banks don't want our business anymore. Many of these are unfortunate innocents.

Doing your taxes right is easy if you just punch a clock and work 9-5 in the US. But do you know how many tens of thousands of pages the US tax code has become. How do you account for forex gains and losses involving hundreds of transactions from arbitrage hedge funds with investments in 3 countries? What about if you are a Canadian resident and citizen who also happens to technically be American because you were born in Minnesota even though you've lived in Canada since childhood and never returned to the States. If you've had large financial accounts in your own name in Canada and didn't realize you were supposed to proactively report the details of each account to the US Treasury each year, you now owe the US Treasury and IRS a huge percentage of your financial wealth. Ignorance of the law does not excuse you. You assume the IRS and US income tax policy towards its non-resident citizens and other US persons is reasonable and fair. It's not!

Second citizenship and eventual renouncing of US citizenship is a real and practically viable solution for a significant number of middle class expats these days who wish to pursue a life offshore. But permanent residency status doesn't mean squat. Even if you live the rare country with no extradition or tax treaties with the US (eg Taiwan due to unique political situation vis-a-vis China), you are not shielded. All the US has to do is inform immigration policy of country you reside in that your passport has been revoked. In most cases, you will be arrested and quickly deported directly back to US.


No I am not, I am looking at it from people who live overseas...

Firstly about taxes. Even with the recent changes in the laws, if you make less than $92,700 you do not have to pay federal income tax. The other only requirement is spending more than 320 days outside of the country.

Second part first. That is easy if you maintain a residence outside of America and you have the usual, you know wife, children in school, etc.

Lastly on this issue; if you create various tax shelters like corporations do which you can do as an individual in the country you reside in. Besides why is important to dodge taxes anyway? You'll be paying taxes in the country of residence anyway. So you're exchanging a tax rate of 23% (which is the all taxes calculated for somebody that earns between $175K-$400K) for maybe 20% taxes because if you make six digits in any developing country you are in rarified air, IE top 2-5% of income earners.

That said most countries do not have infrastructure to chase around tax dodgers and then there's the way officials spend taxes usually lining their own pockets and other issues.

Paying taxes is the least of my concerns, it won't stop me from purchasing the things I want, even if I was paying taxes to both countries, its not a concern.

I would be making an investment in the country by starting businesses and providing jobs. I know banks have been threaten by Americans and don't want their money because they don't want the scrutiny. Umm kay now is that because you legitimately have investments or because we have a bunch of tax dodgers in both the United States and Europe because these people are greedy????

Everybody situation is different, I call renouncing an extreme case because most do not bother with it. The people I mentioned only seem to be big fish, the I know of lesser folk caught up with the IRS and SEC.

You're welcome to revoke yours, but given that Black life is worth less than zero; that is not my first choice, sorry.


You still don’t get it. You are thinking in terms of an American wage earner, not an expat investor or someone who develops passive income sources overseas.

1. $92,700 exemption you refer to applies only to “earned incomeâ€￾, not investment income. Dividends, rents, capital gains, interest earned by US persons overseas are all taxed by the IRS with no matter where said investments are domiciled. Even if you earn just $25,000, they will tax it. No $92,700 exemption applies to non-wage type incomes.

Imagine two brothers, one is a British citizen and the other American. Both live in Thailand00 e. They each hold a Chinese government bond which pays annual interest of US$50,000 per year. The American has to declare that income to the IRS and will probably pay around $5,000 to $10,000 of tax on it depending on his particular circumstances. He will not pay any money to the Thai government or any other country. But the Brit will not be taxed by the UK, Thailand or any other country. He earns the income tax free. So net income of the American if $40,000 to $45,000 per year where the Brit in same exact boat pockets the full $50,000.

USA is probably the only developed country to tax worldwide income of it’s non-resident citizens.

2. I don’t get what point you are trying to make when you say, “Second part first. That is easy if you maintain a residence outside of America and you have the usual, you know wife, children in school, etc.â€￾

3. Majority of countries in the world do not tax what resident foreigners make in third countries. If you a citizen of Country A, reside in Country B, and earn Investment Income from assets domiciled in Country C, you generally do not have to pay any taxes to any governments. That is of course, unless Country A, B, or C happens to be USA.

4. Assuming US expats who wish to open overseas bank accounts are tax dodgers is what the US government has brainwashed so many sheeple in the States to believe. If you live overseas, it makes sense to at least have accounts in your country of residence. If you are an investor, then it makes sense to have lots of accounts in various countries
5. What do you mean Black life is worth less than zero? Your writing style in this whole post seems different than usual.


As they say more money, more problems. It is not my fault Governments around the world rather bailout bankers and chase around high income individuals to make up the shortfall for a 14 year war to chase some guy with a turban on his head, when Saudi Arabians were behind 9/11 to start with. I think some would call that missing the point.

Sort-of Rich people find themselves being victimized because Governments find you easy to chase when the .01% give them goodies like special low interest home loans (Angelo Mozilo of Countrywide) and allow Senate campaigns to have a million dollar price tag. Why would Congress raise taxes on those between $125-$400K and then GIVE THEMSELVES a raise to make it a wash.

Otherwise I call it "Paying The Cost of Being The Boss"

What I mean by tackling the second point first, if you're a career bachelor/MGTOW type you can pick up and leave whenever conditions in your adopted home become unfavorable, changing residences like underwear. If you have children in school and a wife, that will be MUCH HARDER. They may not give two sh*t why you want to renounce your citizenship that may complicate their return to the United States.

If investor Jim Rogers who pretty much lives full time in Singapore sees no value in renouncing his citizenship, I think the average joe can deal with it.

I am aware that some countries are favorable to those with assets, I am not one of those people and I am not here to protect them and I don't support something just because I may get there. That's why White Male Americans love to support Republicans and their no tax hikes/cut taxes platform. They are hoping they become filthy rich at some point (HIGHLY UNLIKELY) and hope Republicans reduce their burden to zero. Again they use these people as patsies, much like they wink and nod to the Religious Right.

You have every right to protect your assets from unfair taxation, like I said if renouncing gives you that advantage then by all means. But isn't Tsar some broke kid that is awkward, and demands a virgin? He has much bigger issues to conquer than worrying about changing his name as he considering becoming an expat.

Protecting of assets is off-topic because almost nobody in this thread has any real assets.

I am not saying everybody that opens an account overseas is a tax dodger, that is an assumption. I really don't care if people have numbered accounts at UBS or any other Swiss bank. I just know something around here (The US) has to give. Either we need to pay more taxes or the Government needs to cut back on its Global Hegemony Project. I know most would rather cut back the military and have their taxes increased.

Black life is worth less than zero; if anybody has a reason to renounce citizenship and become an expat it's African-American men. Most won't so they'll get chewed up in a meat grinder as conditions worsen economically. That fate won't befall me but I'll still be an American, I don't care about taxing of assets until I have something to tax.

I am not becoming an expat for financial reasons, I am becoming one for social reasons. Economics is a given because rents need to be paid, so does the light bill and I need to eat.

I am thinking like a guy with NO ASSETS, save your song and dance about protecting wealth for somebody that actually has wealth to protect.

I simply don't care about somebody's tax issues, unimportant.
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Postby Rock » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:25 am

djfourmoney wrote: As they say more money, more problems. It is not my fault Governments around the world rather bailout bankers and chase around high income individuals to make up the shortfall for a 14 year war to chase some guy with a turban on his head, when Saudi Arabians were behind 9/11 to start with. I think some would call that missing the point.

Sort-of Rich people find themselves being victimized because Governments find you easy to chase when the .01% give them goodies like special low interest home loans (Angelo Mozilo of Countrywide) and allow Senate campaigns to have a million dollar price tag. Why would Congress raise taxes on those between $125-$400K and then GIVE THEMSELVES a raise to make it a wash.

Otherwise I call it "Paying The Cost of Being The Boss"

What I mean by tackling the second point first, if you're a career bachelor/MGTOW type you can pick up and leave whenever conditions in your adopted home become unfavorable, changing residences like underwear. If you have children in school and a wife, that will be MUCH HARDER. They may not give two sh*t why you want to renounce your citizenship that may complicate their return to the United States.

If investor Jim Rogers who pretty much lives full time in Singapore sees no value in renouncing his citizenship, I think the average joe can deal with it.

I am aware that some countries are favorable to those with assets, I am not one of those people and I am not here to protect them and I don't support something just because I may get there. That's why White Male Americans love to support Republicans and their no tax hikes/cut taxes platform. They are hoping they become filthy rich at some point (HIGHLY UNLIKELY) and hope Republicans reduce their burden to zero. Again they use these people as patsies, much like they wink and nod to the Religious Right.

You have every right to protect your assets from unfair taxation, like I said if renouncing gives you that advantage then by all means. But isn't Tsar some broke kid that is awkward, and demands a virgin? He has much bigger issues to conquer than worrying about changing his name as he considering becoming an expat.

Protecting of assets is off-topic because almost nobody in this thread has any real assets.

I am not saying everybody that opens an account overseas is a tax dodger, that is an assumption. I really don't care if people have numbered accounts at UBS or any other Swiss bank. I just know something around here (The US) has to give. Either we need to pay more taxes or the Government needs to cut back on its Global Hegemony Project. I know most would rather cut back the military and have their taxes increased.

Black life is worth less than zero; if anybody has a reason to renounce citizenship and become an expat it's African-American men. Most won't so they'll get chewed up in a meat grinder as conditions worsen economically. That fate won't befall me but I'll still be an American, I don't care about taxing of assets until I have something to tax.

I am not becoming an expat for financial reasons, I am becoming one for social reasons. Economics is a given because rents need to be paid, so does the light bill and I need to eat.

I am thinking like a guy with NO ASSETS, save your song and dance about protecting wealth for somebody that actually has wealth to protect.

I simply don't care about somebody's tax issues, unimportant.


Never mind who posts. Tens of thousands read this forum. I left the USA with virtually no assets, less than $5,000 to my name. I accumulated everything overseas by working, saving and investing. Follow examples set by Indians, Chinese, and Jews when they settle in new countries. I've seen many westerners go to China during its better times and make a nice chunk of change from scratch. You're thinking like a wage slave. You never imagined you could go abroad and create your own wealth. That kind of thinking is self full-filling.

I'm no Republican. People as rich as Jim Rogers are the ones who benefit from the USA system. It's the smaller guys, the middle class types who get screwed. It was even like that when the Justice Department went after overseas account holders. Bulk of those accounts were quite modest in size. The rich usually get a pass. The bank crackdown was billed as an attack on the rich which sounds great to masses. But it was really just an asset grab by our indebted government from disenfranchised middle class to affluent.

I don't live in the US and get no benefits. I will have no social security or medicaid. Cus I didn't work or pay into the system. The only thing I get from the US is a passport, and even that I have to pay for. So I essentially pay US taxes to feed the military and social programs while corporations and rich resident in USA pay at a lower rate (percentage of gross income) than I do. I get nothing in return. Taxation without representation. US expats have virtually no political power because we are fragmented living all over the globe.

I've encountered hundreds of American men overseas in various countries. For a high percentage of them, the biggest expense in all their lives have been American divorce settlements and ongoing alimony. Many are very bitter and some have gone from financial comfort to hardship. Living like paupers overseas.

Those with second passports can escape if need be. If you hold a second passport, you can renounce your US citizenship and be detached within 2-3 months. The only ones so far who have to pay an exit tax are those with net assets of over US$2 mn + and/or last three years of income in excess of around $140,000 each year.
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Postby djfourmoney » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:53 pm

Rock wrote:
djfourmoney wrote: As they say more money, more problems. It is not my fault Governments around the world rather bailout bankers and chase around high income individuals to make up the shortfall for a 14 year war to chase some guy with a turban on his head, when Saudi Arabians were behind 9/11 to start with. I think some would call that missing the point.

Sort-of Rich people find themselves being victimized because Governments find you easy to chase when the .01% give them goodies like special low interest home loans (Angelo Mozilo of Countrywide) and allow Senate campaigns to have a million dollar price tag. Why would Congress raise taxes on those between $125-$400K and then GIVE THEMSELVES a raise to make it a wash.

Otherwise I call it "Paying The Cost of Being The Boss"

What I mean by tackling the second point first, if you're a career bachelor/MGTOW type you can pick up and leave whenever conditions in your adopted home become unfavorable, changing residences like underwear. If you have children in school and a wife, that will be MUCH HARDER. They may not give two sh*t why you want to renounce your citizenship that may complicate their return to the United States.

If investor Jim Rogers who pretty much lives full time in Singapore sees no value in renouncing his citizenship, I think the average joe can deal with it.

I am aware that some countries are favorable to those with assets, I am not one of those people and I am not here to protect them and I don't support something just because I may get there. That's why White Male Americans love to support Republicans and their no tax hikes/cut taxes platform. They are hoping they become filthy rich at some point (HIGHLY UNLIKELY) and hope Republicans reduce their burden to zero. Again they use these people as patsies, much like they wink and nod to the Religious Right.

You have every right to protect your assets from unfair taxation, like I said if renouncing gives you that advantage then by all means. But isn't Tsar some broke kid that is awkward, and demands a virgin? He has much bigger issues to conquer than worrying about changing his name as he considering becoming an expat.

Protecting of assets is off-topic because almost nobody in this thread has any real assets.

I am not saying everybody that opens an account overseas is a tax dodger, that is an assumption. I really don't care if people have numbered accounts at UBS or any other Swiss bank. I just know something around here (The US) has to give. Either we need to pay more taxes or the Government needs to cut back on its Global Hegemony Project. I know most would rather cut back the military and have their taxes increased.

Black life is worth less than zero; if anybody has a reason to renounce citizenship and become an expat it's African-American men. Most won't so they'll get chewed up in a meat grinder as conditions worsen economically. That fate won't befall me but I'll still be an American, I don't care about taxing of assets until I have something to tax.

I am not becoming an expat for financial reasons, I am becoming one for social reasons. Economics is a given because rents need to be paid, so does the light bill and I need to eat.

I am thinking like a guy with NO ASSETS, save your song and dance about protecting wealth for somebody that actually has wealth to protect.

I simply don't care about somebody's tax issues, unimportant.


Never mind who posts. Tens of thousands read this forum. I left the USA with virtually no assets, less than $5,000 to my name. I accumulated everything overseas by working, saving and investing. Follow examples set by Indians, Chinese, and Jews when they settle in new countries. I've seen many westerners go to China during its better times and make a nice chunk of change from scratch. You're thinking like a wage slave. You never imagined you could go abroad and create your own wealth. That kind of thinking is self full-filling.

I'm no Republican. People as rich as Jim Rogers are the ones who benefit from the USA system. It's the smaller guys, the middle class types who get screwed. It was even like that when the Justice Department went after overseas account holders. Bulk of those accounts were quite modest in size. The rich usually get a pass. The bank crackdown was billed as an attack on the rich which sounds great to masses. But it was really just an asset grab by our indebted government from disenfranchised middle class to affluent.

I don't live in the US and get no benefits. I will have no social security or medicaid. Cus I didn't work or pay into the system. The only thing I get from the US is a passport, and even that I have to pay for. So I essentially pay US taxes to feed the military and social programs while corporations and rich resident in USA pay at a lower rate (percentage of gross income) than I do. I get nothing in return. Taxation without representation. US expats have virtually no political power because we are fragmented living all over the globe.

I've encountered hundreds of American men overseas in various countries. For a high percentage of them, the biggest expense in all their lives have been American divorce settlements and ongoing alimony. Many are very bitter and some have gone from financial comfort to hardship. Living like paupers overseas.

Those with second passports can escape if need be. If you hold a second passport, you can renounce your US citizenship and be detached within 2-3 months. The only ones so far who have to pay an exit tax are those with net assets of over US$2 mn + and/or last three years of income in excess of around $140,000 each year.


Right, like I've been saying recently, you don't make enough money! Its only small fries that complain. When they raised the capital gains tax in the Sequester deal back at the end of 2012, along with earned income over $150K, I know who that impacts. Its not me who has earned maybe half a million in lifetime earnings and another $70K in capital gains/gifts/annuities.

I sympathize but not really, it just proves once again that the old middle class; those with a combined earnings of about $50K a year are now the working class, those with less are working poor and those who make $100K or more combined is the new middle class.

All you can do now is wait for the death of the dollar as a global reserve currency. If I agreed or disagreed with tax policy as it currently stands is of little consequence and the people reading this thread should do their diligence.

Actually I am not thinking like some sort of wage slave. I strictly look at working for somebody teaching English as a last resort, I am not working for anybody in the US currently. I am trying to put some building blocks in place so I can make money overseas. Like I said the last thing on my mind is tax burden, reducing the cost of living by 30-40% is vastly more important, also lowering the price of attractive women.

I am also familiar with the tales of woe of men who have to pay alimony to their ex-wives who have since remarried to men who make even more money (married up). You are correct that there's little push back because the men's movement is lacking. But that goes back to conditioning by Western Culture, that when a man has problems, those are his problems to deal with alone.

Other men are reluctant to help men in trouble like it has the cooties or something. I have given friends shelter before, its not a big deal to me. But I have long given up trying to stop people from destructive behavior unless I'm on the radar at the time of their explosion.

Congratulations Rock, you started with only $5,000 to your name before you left and you've made something out of it. That should given incentive to others to stop complaining and actually DO something.
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Postby Novem » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:26 pm

I don't think it would be that much of an issue. Governments don't have time to chase a bunch of small fries around who may have multiple names/identities but do not represent an actual threat to the institution. Some countries require you to change your name in order to get citizenship in the first place. So realistically, I'd imagine there would be someone that has names that reflect the the respective cultures of the countries they have citizenship in.
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Postby OutWest » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:47 pm

Rock wrote:
djfourmoney wrote: As they say more money, more problems. It is not my fault Governments around the world rather bailout bankers and chase around high income individuals to make up the shortfall for a 14 year war to chase some guy with a turban on his head, when Saudi Arabians were behind 9/11 to start with. I think some would call that missing the point.

Sort-of Rich people find themselves being victimized because Governments find you easy to chase when the .01% give them goodies like special low interest home loans (Angelo Mozilo of Countrywide) and allow Senate campaigns to have a million dollar price tag. Why would Congress raise taxes on those between $125-$400K and then GIVE THEMSELVES a raise to make it a wash.

Otherwise I call it "Paying The Cost of Being The Boss"

What I mean by tackling the second point first, if you're a career bachelor/MGTOW type you can pick up and leave whenever conditions in your adopted home become unfavorable, changing residences like underwear. If you have children in school and a wife, that will be MUCH HARDER. They may not give two sh*t why you want to renounce your citizenship that may complicate their return to the United States.

If investor Jim Rogers who pretty much lives full time in Singapore sees no value in renouncing his citizenship, I think the average joe can deal with it.

I am aware that some countries are favorable to those with assets, I am not one of those people and I am not here to protect them and I don't support something just because I may get there. That's why White Male Americans love to support Republicans and their no tax hikes/cut taxes platform. They are hoping they become filthy rich at some point (HIGHLY UNLIKELY) and hope Republicans reduce their burden to zero. Again they use these people as patsies, much like they wink and nod to the Religious Right.

You have every right to protect your assets from unfair taxation, like I said if renouncing gives you that advantage then by all means. But isn't Tsar some broke kid that is awkward, and demands a virgin? He has much bigger issues to conquer than worrying about changing his name as he considering becoming an expat.

Protecting of assets is off-topic because almost nobody in this thread has any real assets.

I am not saying everybody that opens an account overseas is a tax dodger, that is an assumption. I really don't care if people have numbered accounts at UBS or any other Swiss bank. I just know something around here (The US) has to give. Either we need to pay more taxes or the Government needs to cut back on its Global Hegemony Project. I know most would rather cut back the military and have their taxes increased.

Black life is worth less than zero; if anybody has a reason to renounce citizenship and become an expat it's African-American men. Most won't so they'll get chewed up in a meat grinder as conditions worsen economically. That fate won't befall me but I'll still be an American, I don't care about taxing of assets until I have something to tax.

I am not becoming an expat for financial reasons, I am becoming one for social reasons. Economics is a given because rents need to be paid, so does the light bill and I need to eat.

I am thinking like a guy with NO ASSETS, save your song and dance about protecting wealth for somebody that actually has wealth to protect.

I simply don't care about somebody's tax issues, unimportant.


Never mind who posts. Tens of thousands read this forum. I left the USA with virtually no assets, less than $5,000 to my name. I accumulated everything overseas by working, saving and investing. Follow examples set by Indians, Chinese, and Jews when they settle in new countries. I've seen many westerners go to China during its better times and make a nice chunk of change from scratch. You're thinking like a wage slave. You never imagined you could go abroad and create your own wealth. That kind of thinking is self full-filling.

I'm no Republican. People as rich as Jim Rogers are the ones who benefit from the USA system. It's the smaller guys, the middle class types who get screwed. It was even like that when the Justice Department went after overseas account holders. Bulk of those accounts were quite modest in size. The rich usually get a pass. The bank crackdown was billed as an attack on the rich which sounds great to masses. But it was really just an asset grab by our indebted government from disenfranchised middle class to affluent.

I don't live in the US and get no benefits. I will have no social security or medicaid. Cus I didn't work or pay into the system. The only thing I get from the US is a passport, and even that I have to pay for. So I essentially pay US taxes to feed the military and social programs while corporations and rich resident in USA pay at a lower rate (percentage of gross income) than I do. I get nothing in return. Taxation without representation. US expats have virtually no political power because we are fragmented living all over the globe.

I've encountered hundreds of American men overseas in various countries. For a high percentage of them, the biggest expense in all their lives have been American divorce settlements and ongoing alimony. Many are very bitter and some have gone from financial comfort to hardship. Living like paupers overseas.

Those with second passports can escape if need be. If you hold a second passport, you can renounce your US citizenship and be detached within 2-3 months. The only ones so far who have to pay an exit tax are those with net assets of over US$2 mn + and/or last three years of income in excess of around $140,000 each year.


The exit tax will of course eventually include everyone. A Soviet style exit barrier is of course the
objective. Hat tip to someone who understands freedom, and how we are loosing it.
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Postby djfourmoney » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:47 pm

Novem wrote:I don't think it would be that much of an issue. Governments don't have time to chase a bunch of small fries around who may have multiple names/identities but do not represent an actual threat to the institution. Some countries require you to change your name in order to get citizenship in the first place. So realistically, I'd imagine there would be someone that has names that reflect the the respective cultures of the countries they have citizenship in.


If you have elderly parents/grandparents its very likely you would return at some point. What if you didn't bring the right passport? I dunno making your life complicated by changing names just sounds silly.

Sometimes I think these pie in the sky post should be deleted, but sometimes a health debate happens. Whatever.

Like I said in my research citizenship is vastly overrated and subjects you to the craziness of developing countries.

For Rock who likes to spend time in Asia, this might be a consideration. I don't like Asian enough women, no reason to go there, seriously long plane flights too.

I'll keep saying it, I picked where I picked because the factors work in my favor. I can get citizenship.

I think the issue that is not discussed is the dilemma between being a MGTOW or Traditionalist. There is also the issue of men chasing women without having their finances usually fail.

I don't know many people that base where they lay their head on tax law. Maybe more should? I dunno, its not like you'll escape paying taxes. If you pay low tax is usually because the country has a certain level of dysfunction that is not seen in the West. No matter what Congress does, core services still run in America and are not subjected to shutdowns or budget breakdowns.

Asian overall is in better shape than Latin America. That is a personal decision, just like changing your name. Do your own research and make up your own mind.
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