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An Italian explains why not to go live in Italy.

Discuss and talk about any general topic.

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Postby E Irizarry R&B Singer » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:22 am

publicduende wrote:
E Irizarry R&B Singer wrote:OH SHIT! Ummm as much as I like you Public Duende, you need to admit Euro Brat was right for the most part.

EB got ducks lined up in a row!!!! Wow with this vid!!!


Right on what exactly? That is stuff we all know. I could find you thousands of videos that talk about the US in exactly the same tones (or more erudite and in-depth).

It remains that EB, like perhaps many of you, is simply not prepared to put some work to build some social interactions that could go beyond the occasional beer, schnitzel and burp. Therefore, Italy and much of the world south of the Rhine are just not for him.

Need it yesterday, need it easy, need it cheap. No wonder the Philippines are so popular.


Wow. You're a British citizen so contextually please correct your gerunds, indirect and direct objects. "...like perhaps many of you"? So you're saying that me knowing English, Spanish, traveled to 15 countries on my own dime, teaching English abroad, two certs shy of SharePoint 2013 MCSE....all of that on my own merit and desire...and you drug me into ".....like perhaps many of you"?? "I'm insulted" #MargaretThatcherAccent ;-)
It's time to expatriate to evade your fate; it's time to expatriate before the barn door permanently closes on "US" sheep.
Debut mixtape "The Skilled Neophyte of RNB (x64)" dropping Spring 2016 - Follow me on Twitter @eirizarryRNB
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Postby Jester » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:58 am

publicduende wrote:
Jester wrote:
Actually grist for another thread, or even another website.

Not "when" should a man go abroad,
not "where" should a man go abroad,
but "how" should a man go abroad.

Let's be fair, EuroBrat got it 100% right by using his USA sales background to obtain location-independent sales work he could do from Western Europe time zones.

The income issue is huge for most, and he got that right.

He also picked a culture he was interested in, and learned the language. Got that right.


Yeah he got a work from home job, not badly paid by Italian (or German) standards. Kudos for that.

He picked a culture he thought he was interested in, or better said, he picked what he thought Italian society and culture could offer him. Unfortunately reality hit and hit hard. I did advise him to go south, I did advise him to start easy and gradual, maybe moving to my hometown (Bari) where I would have helped him find a job and a social setting. I did what every Italian willing to be friends would have done: open his door. But he didn't walk in and preferred to behave based on his mental theorems on what he would have liked the most about Italy, and what would have worked. I don't blame him for his inexperience, and surely don't blame him for being adventurous. It takes guts. I blame him for betraying my trust slandering me in public for what was just a genuine, uninterested (and free of charge) attempt to help him. That I will never forgive him.

By the way, Italian isn't such an easy language. I am sure he did some 1-to-1 language classes over Skype but not sure how much Italian he picked up. Surely he knows a few swearing words...for everything else, there's Google Translate.

Jester wrote:What he was unable to do is to PENETRATE Italian society. Like going to a bar full of hotties and NOT GETTING ANY.

He and I spoke briefly about this, it parallels my experience in Mexico. Some societies are harder to penetrate than others.

I have no doubt that PublicDuende gave some good advice, and I have no doubt that some was hard for Euro to follow. Not trying to micro-analyze.

What I am saying that being Happier Abroad is not just about bucks, passport, plane ticket and the right women, but ALSO about how the hell you blend in and fit in when you get there.


Exactly. Precisely. Like most adventurous types, he was blissfully unaware of the real effort one needs to pour to truly understand, or "penetrate" as you called it, a society that has a different approach to daily life: socialising, dating, working, eating, fighting, f***ing, etc.

Some countries like the Philippines have a thin veneer of American culture which seems to lower the barrier to entry a lot, and also has pool of poor and needy girls whose sexual services are apparently priced cheaper than the chance (hope?) of a Kano boyfriend and a better life.

I still maintain that the reason why I thoroughly enjoyed my stay in Davao and was able to enter pretty exclusive circles, the real upper middle class and power brokers, in a relatively small amount of time was that I, perhaps unconsciously, tapped into the lower and much thicker layer of their cultural territory: the Catholic/Spaniard one. It was obviously easier for me as I come from that kind of culture and find many of things you guy get scandalised about pretty normal, or at least much more tolerable. It does also explain why I have no problem dealing with Colombians and Latin Americans, and find it a lot harder to decipher a Brit or a Northern European, with the exception of Russians.

All of this to give a corollary of sort of what you wrote above: how the hell you blend in is a function of the distance between your local culture and way of thinking (which is a function of personality, family upbringing etc.) and that of your chosen host country. The smaller the gap to jump, when you decide to jump, the safer and smoother the landing.



:shock:

Sobering. True. Food for thought.
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Postby eurobrat » Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:58 am

Jester wrote:
publicduende wrote:All of this to give a corollary of sort of what you wrote above: how the hell you blend in is a function of the distance between your local culture and way of thinking (which is a function of personality, family upbringing etc.) and that of your chosen host country. The smaller the gap to jump, when you decide to jump, the safer and smoother the landing.



:shock:

Sobering. True. Food for thought.


Oh get real Duende

Italian culture is not far off from American at all, especially those raised by our born Italian grandparents. I could write a compare and contrast thesis paper comparing the two and there would be more comparisons than contrasts. Sorry but I grew up with the same religious practicing, food, loving family, hospitable environment, Italian traditions and so on.

My problem might come from other things like my bitterness, disdain for life, negative and cyclical attitude but my background isn't far off from yours.
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Postby publicduende » Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:59 am

eurobrat wrote:Oh get real Duende

Italian culture is not far off from American at all, especially those raised by our born Italian grandparents. I could write a compare and contrast thesis paper comparing the two and there would be more comparisons than contrasts. Sorry but I grew up with the same religious practicing, food, loving family, hospitable environment, Italian traditions and so on.


Maybe so, but then I wonder how you could feel so far removed and frustrated by things that you say you experimented a lot during your childhood and teen years.

You said your first gf, and probably the hottest you ever had, was introduced to you by your family, something that still happens quite a lot in Italy. However it turned out, why did you hate the idea that something like that could happen to you in Italy? Social circles -> introductions -> dating, same pattern. What's so outdated or scandalising?

Your biggest mistake is that you wanted to forget all you were and cherished and shoehorn Italy into what you wanted Italy to be. You used to moan a lot about Italy been too antiquated, backward-looking and closed-off, yet I know you too well and I know you secretly long the depth and quality of those kinds of relationships. Yet, you never wanted to put the effort to work on it.

So Italy was sometimes too different for your tastes, or too similar to the US for your tastes. You always had an excuse ready to justify yourself out of any responsibility you had to face to feel accepted and welcome.

Berlin is surely giving you an easier time because social interactions are more casual and easier to come and go. It's not the same thing, though.[/quote]

eurobrat wrote:My problem might come from other things like my bitterness, disdain for life, negative and cyclical attitude but my background isn't far off from yours.


Which begs the question: why did you let all that happen to you??? We indeed built up (what I believed was) a valuable rapport because we had quite a few things in common, from the same hostel and university experiences in London to your Italian background. How you could destroy all this just so you could get a free "get out of guilt" ticket, I found it an appalling betrayal on your side, and a big red flag of immaturity. If I hadn't considered myself your friend I would have cared a LOT less, but it wasn't so.

I couldn't find a better explanation than your mental state being bent out of shape by endless months of loneliness and social frustration. And that is the better explanation, as it rules out any evil purpose. You are not a bad person, but you should stop and reflect how your games may hurt people and indeed shoo them away from establish meaningful connections with you. You may then complain about not having meaningful connections which reinforces the hate cycle. Rinse & repeat.

I dearly hope this cycle is now broken. Good for you if that is the case.
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Postby eurobrat » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:49 pm

publicduende wrote:
Which begs the question: why did you let all that happen to you??? We indeed built up (what I believed was) a valuable rapport because we had quite a few things in common, from the same hostel and university experiences in London to your Italian background. How you could destroy all this just so you could get a free "get out of guilt" ticket, I found it an appalling betrayal on your side, and a big red flag of immaturity. If I hadn't considered myself your friend I would have cared a LOT less, but it wasn't so.

I couldn't find a better explanation than your mental state being bent out of shape by endless months of loneliness and social frustration. And that is the better explanation, as it rules out any evil purpose. You are not a bad person, but you should stop and reflect how your games may hurt people and indeed shoo them away from establish meaningful connections with you. You may then complain about not having meaningful connections which reinforces the hate cycle. Rinse & repeat.

I dearly hope this cycle is now broken. Good for you if that is the case.


Italy just wasn't what I thought I was looking for when I originally departed. The reality didn't hit until I went there and started to feel like a prisoner. I now know that Italy wasn't the place for me, but I would have never known unless I tried.

Here was my anger cycle in Italy when it turned out to be the place I didn't think it was. The picture you painted my life in Italy being like. Yes you were involved in the highlighted "Explosion of anger/rage". Which ultimately results in the guilt/shame stage, which I apologize I probably shouldn't have put 50% blame on you personally as you're not responsible for my everyday happiness.

Image

I went through something like this. I'm somewhere between the "acceptance" and "returning to a meaningful life" stage, so I'm almost home free.

Image
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Postby publicduende » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:29 am

eurobrat wrote:Italy just wasn't what I thought I was looking for when I originally departed. The reality didn't hit until I went there and started to feel like a prisoner. I now know that Italy wasn't the place for me, but I would have never known unless I tried.

Here was my anger cycle in Italy when it turned out to be the place I didn't think it was. The picture you painted my life in Italy being like. Yes you were involved in the highlighted "Explosion of anger/rage". Which ultimately results in the guilt/shame stage, which I apologize I probably shouldn't have put 50% blame on you personally as you're not responsible for my everyday happiness.

[...]

I went through something like this. I'm somewhere between the "acceptance" and "returning to a meaningful life" stage, so I'm almost home free.

[...]


I did tell you Italy was not going to be the cakewalk you had planned. I was slightly optimistic when you told me you had all sorted out with your hostelier job but when you chose to walk away, I didn't really know how you would fare. It was your choice to go to Florence and then Como. I surely warned you of the pro and cons and you were still too switched to take the whole lot, you obviously filtered out the negatives and focussed on what you wanted to hear. It's only human.

By now you will have understood that you and only you are in charge of your own serenity, stability and happiness, whether abroad or at home.
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Postby eurobrat » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:37 pm

publicduende wrote:
eurobrat wrote:Italy just wasn't what I thought I was looking for when I originally departed. The reality didn't hit until I went there and started to feel like a prisoner. I now know that Italy wasn't the place for me, but I would have never known unless I tried.

Here was my anger cycle in Italy when it turned out to be the place I didn't think it was. The picture you painted my life in Italy being like. Yes you were involved in the highlighted "Explosion of anger/rage". Which ultimately results in the guilt/shame stage, which I apologize I probably shouldn't have put 50% blame on you personally as you're not responsible for my everyday happiness.

[...]

I went through something like this. I'm somewhere between the "acceptance" and "returning to a meaningful life" stage, so I'm almost home free.

[...]


I did tell you Italy was not going to be the cakewalk you had planned. I was slightly optimistic when you told me you had all sorted out with your hostelier job but when you chose to walk away, I didn't really know how you would fare. It was your choice to go to Florence and then Como. I surely warned you of the pro and cons and you were still too switched to take the whole lot, you obviously filtered out the negatives and focussed on what you wanted to hear. It's only human.

By now you will have understood that you and only you are in charge of your own serenity, stability and happiness, whether abroad or at home.


I'm more like a child who hit the burner once and I know not to stick my hand in the fire again.

Listen I'm sorry for shaking you like a rag doll. I've had a really rough time and for what it's worth I want to formally apologize here.

Per quello che vale, mi dispiace.
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Postby publicduende » Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:25 pm

eurobrat wrote:I'm more like a child who hit the burner once and I know not to stick my hand in the fire again.

Listen I'm sorry for shaking you like a rag doll. I've had a really rough time and for what it's worth I want to formally apologize here.

Per quello che vale, mi dispiace.


Apologies duly noted, dude.
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Postby eurobrat » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:30 pm

publicduende wrote:
eurobrat wrote:I'm more like a child who hit the burner once and I know not to stick my hand in the fire again.

Listen I'm sorry for shaking you like a rag doll. I've had a really rough time and for what it's worth I want to formally apologize here.

Per quello che vale, mi dispiace.


Apologies duly noted, dude.


Siamo amici? Molto buona.
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Postby Jester » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:12 am

I knew it.

I knew it.

Two piselli in a baccello.
"Pick a point and go to it."
-- Dr John Hunsucker, speaking about canoeing on Georgia's Lake Lanier, with its irregular shape, and 1000 miles of meandering shoreline
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Postby gsjackson » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:08 am

It's over? It's finally over? Oh Dio Mio. I've resided in four different places separated by thousands of miles over the course of this pissing contest.

OK Winston, get the big hoses out and get busy. I don't want a hint of urine odor left on this site.
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Postby Jester » Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:20 pm

gsjackson wrote:It's over? It's finally over? Oh Dio Mio. I've resided in four different places separated by thousands of miles over the course of this pissing contest.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby eurobrat » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:28 pm

gsjackson wrote:It's over? It's finally over? Oh Dio Mio. I've resided in four different places separated by thousands of miles over the course of this pissing contest.

OK Winston, get the big hoses out and get busy. I don't want a hint of urine odor left on this site.


I wear the pants in this relationship and thats why I decided to apologize first. I was a tad abusive in the relationship, but so was he at times. Two wrongs don't make a right. We both had insightful things to say and we both flung a few turds.

That being said I'm hoping we can move on and still be friends because we do have alot in common and we do tend to agree on the same things most the time.
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Postby Jester » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:00 am

One of the scripture quotes that PandaBear has at the bottom of his photo album pages. I thought it appropriate for some of the times some of us here on HA get our dander up:

In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

--Buddha
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-- Dr John Hunsucker, speaking about canoeing on Georgia's Lake Lanier, with its irregular shape, and 1000 miles of meandering shoreline
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Postby publicduende » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:50 pm

eurobrat wrote:I wear the pants in this relationship and thats why I decided to apologize first. I was a tad abusive in the relationship, but so was he at times. Two wrongs don't make a right. We both had insightful things to say and we both flung a few turds.

That being said I'm hoping we can move on and still be friends because we do have alot in common and we do tend to agree on the same things most the time.


If you did wear any pants "in this relationship" you would have soiled them multiple times. You are clearly in bad faith and your "apologies" were as fake as the entire, fragile, miserable narrative you've based the last couple of years of your life on.

It took you a few lines of (unsolicited) Facebook chat to show your true colours. I am not pasting them here out of pity. You are truly the most obnoxious, immature person I have ever met in my life, offline and online. And you dare wonder why I never wanted to meet you. Nor any Italian with a sane mind, for that matter.

I understand most people here see this as some sort of pissing contest, and perhaps (as mentioned) that's the way as you see it: a game, a show, a "production" where you can bother people with a normal life to no end to add drama to a life otherwise devoid of meaning. Well, it's not working, so take your circus and set camp somewhere else, as far as you can from my online presence. Capisc?
Last edited by publicduende on Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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