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where can I find advice about being Happier Abroad as a woman?
I am a first generation American and I think that the reason why so many of the desires expressed in this board make sense to me is because my family and its culture is a big proponent in my life and I would like to find a man who relates to that. (admittedly, I have only glanced at a few things. Will look at more in a moment!)
I largely ignore arguments about feminism from both genders since I was raised in a traditional home and these were never issues; I avoid conversations that are too angry because I feel like my love life is not a political movement. I want everyone to have love and want the negativity to decrease.
I was not afforded many of the things trp men and the like are angry about with western women nor do I miss them.
all of that said, I am working to become my most attractive self and I want a full life of love, family, and happiness. I would love to meet a man abroad and skip the charades. I have no problem with sex and exploration with a partner I trust and frankly I don't trust the values perpetuated here. I don't want to marry someone angry, I want to marry a partner, a friend, someone I admire. I have NO idea where that starts as I am a widowed person who is trying again
There are tons of men from almost any country who are curious about US/western women. So you really have most of the world open to you. If you are from a traditional background, that will also work to your advantage since almost anywhere you go, the marriage-age people in the world have more traditional views than in the US.
There is probably a stronger marriage/LTR culture outside of the Anglosphere and less of a hookup culture.
The advantages you gain from going abroad might be less dramatic than what the men will experience, but you'll find less fakery, probably less BS from men trying to score a hookup. The social atmosphere in most places has a more genuine feel to it. The US is the most career-driven country so if you enjoy being away from that, almost anywhere will seem like an improvement. A lot of people in less affluent countries, even professionals, have not seen much of their home country and would relish the opportunity to explore it, especially with someone from an unfamiliar place.
What is your background, and what places are you curious to visit? Your ethnicity might make you more of a novelty in certain areas.
Most valuable advice you can find is how to thrive in whatever country you plan to visit and not get caught in a compromising/dangerous situation, as there are shady people in every country. A tourist or foreigner can make an appealing target and some aggressively seek them out.
As an AW, unless you've already slutted it up so much that you can't even look at a man without becoming a rabid, frothing at the mouth beast, then you'll easily find a horde of nice guys just waiting to wife you up. You have no reason to look abroad. You don't even need to be young, beautiful, or nice and you can find tons of eligible men easily. But something tells me you're not going to do that, and that same something tells me you're a bitch. Wait, let me check...
Ah, there's the bitchiness. Just couldn't control yourself could you. Here's a clue. We don't give a f**k about your inane shaming language. You're invisible to us, who know what it's like to be with a real woman. You're a counterfeit of a woman at best.
Also, just for fun...*whips out checklist*
So many things in just this single paragraph of yours!
You have no problem slutting it up - check
You don't trust the 'values perpetuated here' shaming language 1 - check
You don't want to marry someone angry - shaming language 2 - check
You have 'no idea' where to start (in other words, you reject the horde of nice guys who would wife you up quickly because of hypergamy + slut programming) - check
Four major strikes in such a small paragraph. Good job, bitch!
Hi, I am the original poster. I was banned and I don't know why since I only wrote one post. I did message the moderator but who knows. I am not clear as to what is not allowed here but @ghost, the reason I said I avoid angry men is displayed in your post. What you just did here is very scary. Most people don't act like this in real life, there is no reason to be so vicious to me. We don't know each other and we have never interacted before. I don't even know what you're talking about in half of your post and its just not nice.
You accused me of being a slut but there are two problems with that. Even if I had lots of sex, I don't see how any adult's sex life matters to anyone else. I don't think it is shaming language to say I don't agree with this attitude. My logic is the same one that supports people going abroad to find love. People should be free to live their lives how they see fit.
But the more relevant point is I ended my post saying I am a widow. I was very happily married to my soulmate. My husband passed away and I am now starting over and I am not even 30 years old. I have not slept with anyone other than my husband and with good reason. I never participated in these things you are hissing at me about. This is a perfect example of the mindsets I come across when I decided to date again. Nothing this negative but still this assumption about what I must be like because of how I look or the fact that I live here. I don't have casual sex and I'm not at war with men so why should I have to suffer at the hand of your rage?
@wanderlust thank you for the helpful and lovely reply! I suspect you are right about the attitudes about marriage and things abroad. I come from humble beginnings and my family and I are very close. Aside from my life with my husband, I've always been so much happier at home. My family doesn't have much but the values and the richness in love can't be beat by anything in the world. This is the kind of family life I am hoping to find again. I do have a career which happens to pay well because my father always insisted I be able to take care of myself just in case. Go figure. He was right! Actually in my family, we all work and it doesn't clash with our traditional values at all. It is only when I started to read things online that I noticed how bad things seem to be between the genders. I was blissfully unaware lol and its not a fight I want to be part of. The materialism that erodes the joy of the people in this country is just so depressing. I don't really know how to find men with similar values here. When I talk to people who are not from here, its just such a natural and pleasant interaction. So I do suppose if I met someone like that here, it would be just as fine with me.
As far as safety, this is probably my greatest concern. Is there a part on this board where this is addressed? I am both concerned about physical safety and financially should it come to marriage in the US. The green card scam thing happened to someone very close to me and it was a heartbreaking affair we are still all working through. The hope is to find a true love to build a life with and a very happy home. I can see how this can make anyone a target
Is this board all men or is it ok for women to be here too?
I have to say it can be very tough when you are not part of the majority culture anywhere and you're just trying to live a happy life. Reading things over and over online as if its the only way of life and its not even what you agree with or live like? The idea here seems so promising, I'm not sure how to execute it. If I get banned again for replying, just know that I came back to say thank you @wanderlust. I will keep searching for answers but at least I know I'm on the right path
I'll agree with you that some on this board seem to be kind of angry. I'll tell you something similar to what I tell them. I don't think US culture is particularly friendly toward marriage, but I think you can still find some decent marriage partners in the US.
That may be more the case for women. There are a lot of men out there who, like some of the men on this forum, think men sleeping around is okay. There may also be plenty of guys who don't appreciate your traditional background and some of the advantages you are bringing to the table. But in the US, you have the advantage that there is still a bit of chivalry left in the culture that never existed in some of the Asian or African cultures. There are still men who open the door for women. And not just that, but also want to pay for dates, and honor women in different ways.
A lot of the young men on this forum get frustrated with the fact that some women still want men to pay for dates and do chivalrous things, but then are very demanding when it comes to feminist ideas of equal rights. But not all guys are bitter like that.
If you looked for love abroad, where would you be looking? I used to live in Asia. There are some Asian men who are interested in white women. In the places I lived, they weren't as interested in black women. As far as marriage goes, it seems like more white men go for Asian women than vice versa. I have known a couple of Asian men with white women. If Asian men are faced with marrying a more dominant western woman versus a more traditional submissive Asian women, why marry the white woman? In some countries, the local Asian men tend to be shorter and weigh less than some of the white visitors.
I can think of a couple of white girls that were in my social circle in Jakarta who were reasonably attractive, especially one of them, who spent their 30's there without marrying. Both are single as best I can tell from Facebook and correspondence with them. One may be dating. They would be in their early 40's now, probably. They spent those marrying years overseas. Maybe they didn't like local guys. Or maybe the guys didn't ask them out. Dating there is usually marriage-focused.
If you go for European guys, I don't know if you'll be as likely to get a traditional guy as you would from the US. It depends on the man and the country.
hi @MrMan (heyyy I like your username)
Thank you for the great reply. I hear what you're saying
I don't doubt there are great American guys, I think I am just not going to focus on them so much because what I'm seeing so far is very discouraging. Our values are just different. This is too adversarial an atmosphere for love and I don't think its fair for people like me who don't care to participate in it.
I guess I did not give much thought to ethnicity because it is just another one of those things that I have to use cognitive dissonance to deal with in the dating world. I am not a white woman and I don't know first hand what makes a ww good or bad for dating. I am considered conventionally attractive and so I work with what I have. My problem is not that I don't attract people its that I have had real love in my life, a true partnership, and I know what it feels like and what needs to be there between myself and someone else for it to be there. I am looking for more of this. It will never be like it was with my husband but thats ok, it will be its own thing. I want to spend the rest of my life with someone who will be family. Arguments about who pay for coffee and scoring sex completely escape me because it is not important to me. I understand this must be a huge frustration for some people. I accept that I am not their target demo
I have always had to depend on who I am speaking for me because I'm not part of the narrative. If I depended on what the internet suggested about people like me I would have offed myself a long time ago. Since I know I can't trust the internet completely because it is wrong about women like me, I don't know how to prepare myself for men abroad. Don't know what country to look at. I always assumed this was about the individual. Not being white changes the dynamic of so many of these conversations. I got out with people from these cultures you mention and the dates are generally better than the ones with American men. But what does that even mean? Would their general culture hate me and they personally like me? What can I handle? I know how to meet people and talk to people but how do people find their spouses? I found mine by sheer unadulterated luck. Lightning does not strike twice so here I am
by the way, your comment about living in Asia sounds exciting. You just decided to move there one day? How long did you stay and was it worth it?
There is no particular section where safety abroad is addressed. But safety issues for you would be largely the same as for us males. Poor places that get a lot of tourists tend to accumulate pickpockets, drug dealers and violent robbers, although you can't pick them out by looking. Other things to be aware of are:
- moneychangers who will rip you off. Do the math in advance, on paper, and present them with that paper before doing the transaction, so they know how much you will expect. Not foolproof but should help.
- taxi drivers who will overcharge. Best to look for metered taxis.
There are various other hazards like kidnappings for ransom, express kidnappings where kidnappers abduct someone by car and take that person to all the ATM's to withdraw as much as possible, then release the target. Men can expect to be beaten and women raped during the operation.
The last big thing that comes to mind is getting roofied/drugged and robbed and/or raped. The arm of the law is shorter, and the rule of law is much weaker, outside the west and police in certain locations are suspected to be complicit with various criminals. There is direct police blackmail in many Latin countries, generally framing people for drug offences in hopes of a bribe. You can visit travel.state.us (or maybe it's travel.state.gov) and get info for known hazards in various countries, or localities within countries.
Overall: Asia tends to be relatively safe, as does Western Europe. Eastern Europe is less so. The greatest dangers to a female (and probably a male) are in various Latin American and African locations, unless you were to include no-go destinations like Syria, Iraq, or Afghanistan. Good to talk to people who've been to a desired destination recently. Many have said that shady expats pose a threat, sometimes setting up other westerners. It is politically incorrect to say this, but certain cultures and areas can consider you a loose, available piece of meat based on your ties to the west. Use your imagination. Avoid run-down neighborhoods. Safety in numbers. Try not to stick out, dress modestly and try to know the etiquette for where you are. Pride is all people have in some places and it can be hazardous to insult it, even inadvertently.
Still, most travelers don't suffer beyond minor rip-offs and robberies in which they don't suffer injury. Average international robber is more interested in getting loot than maiming or killing. Locals you can trust can help you navigate.
Regarding your other questions:
Probably about 2/3 of the posters on this board are Americans or Canadians. About 95% are male. Women are welcome but the board just attracts far more men. There have been other women to post here in the past.
If you are serious about finding someone for love, the more you have in common, the greater your chances of long term success. You probably already know this, but there will be times where attraction/sexual chemistry does not burn brightly. What remains at the times when this feeling isn't strong? And how do you view your relationship during those times? If what remains is respect, shared goals, similar life views, that chemistry stands a far better chance of bobbing back up to the surface. Look for a man who has a track record of stability, trying to make the best even when things are tough. Someone who has no materialistic streak, PLUS decent financial footing, is less likely to use you for a green card. A few obvious red flags would include extreme personal charm, a nebulous background that he won't discuss and an uneasy gut feeling.
If you want tips on where to go, consider somewhere that family life remains largely in tact. I like places that are safe to walk and not too spread out; that means there are more opportunities at your fingertips and walking is pleasurable for the body and mind. It helps a person reach a calm state of ordered thoughts.
Similar to you, it's getting unpleasant for me to watch what's going on in the West now between the sexes. In an atmosphere of constant novelty and stimulation, the ability to look deeper, and to think deeper, is fading. Yet, those are elementary to long-term happiness.
I just unbanned prettychoices. Why was she banned? I dont see that she broke any forum rules.
You guys, come on. Why are you so threatened by her? If you feel she is wrong or needs some educating, then explain it to her rationally in a civil intelligent manner. Banning her isnt going to make your point or help her understand you. Try to reason with her instead. I will tell the moderators not to ban her as long as she hasnt broken any rules.
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
Oh, yes, I'm sure you feel so scared and threatened by someone posting on the internet from 10,000 miles away.
You have no idea what vicious really means. So coddled.
No, I don't think I did. Looks like your reading comprehension sucks.
You have hordes of thirsty guys in the U.S. who would wife you up readily. Going abroad would put you at a "disadvantage." Problem solved. Go away.
Prettychoices / happiesttraveller :
Of all the things that people around here say about western women and western culture, what parts don't you agree with and why not?
Location Independent Expat Relocate
If you want to move abroad, but you can't decide where, I can help you.
Now that I have spent a little more time on the site, I have to say I'm pretty disappointed. The premise of this site is such a great idea and full of hope. I thought I would find more likeminded people here and I think in some ways I have (look in this thread! just brilliant) but so far its more like spotting one or two voices of reason, not the general consensus. But that mirrors my experiences irl so I guess thats ok. I am not sure how well I represent western women and western culture but I'll do my best to answer this
I think (generally speaking) western women reflect western men and their values and that both genders have hit such a low.
I do believe in men being the head of the household but as they say, with great power comes great responsibility. It would be irresponsible to submit to a person who is not fully actualized or without principle. The women who anger many of the men are also the women who are put on a pedestal for their beauty, sexuality, and the status that those things bring. Those women are not held accountable for their behavior no matter what nasty things are said online. We have all seen it. The anger is redirected to the lesser. And THOSE women are put on pedestal by a different group of men, and so forth.
Many men are suffering at the hand of this structure and in turn creating movements that only hurt them more or further separate them from their heart's desires. Its tragic.
Both genders are mired in this need for unachievable perfection, they feel comfortable with abusing what they do not understand or find no personal value in, and really there is a lack of respect on both sides. I don't believe love can be found where hatred fills.
Put it this way. The culture is completely inconsistent with what people are saying they want and the expectations are highly unrealistic. You're not going to find a great supply of humility and virgins where sex is the currency. Attractiveness rules all and the possible gains are obscene. If the principle really were for chastity over personal gratification, that standard would be met. It really is that simple. There is a loss of humanity that I have to hope is just online where people come to vent.
The west is what it is because it is driven by individualistic mindsets. Community, families, and marriages are not a priority here.
I see it, I understand it, and I just try to navigate around it. There is no rule that forces anyone to live this lifestyle. My culture is heavily invested in family and country. I think a partner whose background also values these things, fits me best.
I should add that I don't think the frustrations shown here mean that people are generally bad. I don't. We've been disenchanted by what we thought life would be -I know I sure am still making peace with what it means to be an adult.
But you know something? I want to be a mom one day. I feel a fierce love and protection for a future family I don't even have yet! Because of this, I feel its my duty to select well. The mind of the man I choose is what will lead my household. It is of critical importance to me that above all else, he is strong minded, protective, wise, and kind. My children will look up to him and model after him the way I looked up to my own father. If he is filled with hate or irrational notions about life, they will be too. Another poster here said I can find "thirsty" persons here in the US. If I find someone in the US with these traits, that would be great. But US values and my values are not the same. So I am looking at the bigger picture. People pair up based in solely attractiveness and finances and wonder why the divorce rate is so high.
I went off on a tangent, sorry but I do hope I answered your question a bit. Its a big question. I love the US but I don't love the values here and I'm determined on finding a way to live a full and happy life regardless of whats popular here.
@ghost you sneer as you write and you don't see how you come across as really scary? There is a general discomfort just reading your words. Such malice. I hope you don't come across this way in real life and you're right, we're online and miles away and for that I am truly grateful. Bye.
Last edited by PrettyChoices on December 27th, 2015, 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I just want to say thank you for such a valuable post. I actually took notes lol.
The bolded is what I primarily seek since sex for me is a largely an expression of the intimacy found in these things. Hurts to write because I miss my husband so much but in my experience, this is never difficult when you feel connected to someone in this big cold world. I would be overwhelmed with my gratefulness for him and his protection. I dont imagine the inverse inspiring that kind of devotion from me so its why I largely reject sex driving my love life.
2nd bolded line is such good advice, thank you! My mom has warned me about the finances but here in the US it seems to work against me; I am not really sure how to mention career and things abroad. And yes the charm is laid on so thick in some cultures. It can be really flattering. Great now I'm nervous just thinking through what you said here.
"Similar to you, it's getting unpleasant for me to watch what's going on in the West now between the sexes. In an atmosphere of constant novelty and stimulation, the ability to look deeper, and to think deeper, is fading. Yet, those are elementary to long-term happiness."
you get me.
OP (this is in response to your post to me) :
Western women do reflect western men, it's true. Unfortunately, western men are “training” western women all wrong. However, men not only determine how women turn out, they also respond to the kinds of women that are in their society. Men didn't en masse suddenly start teaching western women to be degenerates. Feminism did that. And now men are merely responding to the kinds of women that have been created by feminism. It's not easy for men to reshape women on a large scale, especially considering that feminism has slowly creeped in over the course of a few decades. But things have become so bad that some western men are doing one or more of the following things :
- Making the best of what's around, and settling (bad move)
- Becoming increasingly aggressive and rude towards western women (justifiable, but stupid if misdirected)
- Going to other parts of the world (ideal)
We don't put western women on a pedestal. Far, far from it, as I'm sure you've noticed. In fact, we don't put women on a pedestal in general, although we're more forgiving towards non western women simply because their pros often outweigh their cons.
I agree that many men have become poisoned by their own anger. But that's the flipside of love. When you want to love and think highly of someone or a group of people, and they let you down, it turns into anger, maybe hatred in some cases. It's up to each individual to not let that happen. But the ultimate cause of it all is feminism.
Our aim is not to find a way to love western women. Our aim is to walk away from the mess while criticizing it, so that we always remember what is good and what is bad.
I don't think people here are bad either. But when you have something (feminism) that is such an affront to what is decent and desirable, there's going to be anger. But as you can see, this place is about solutions, namely going abroad.
I'm still not sure what it is that you disagree with. What are you disappointed with? Do you think we dislike women? Do you think we're bitter? What exactly is it?
Someone earlier said that you're a slut, and you said mentioned having a lot of sex. A slut is someone that has sex with lots of people. No one has a problem with people enjoying sex, but we don't think highly of sluts.
We've had a few women join this forum from time to time, and rarely does it go well. I'm just letting you know.
Location Independent Expat Relocate
If you want to move abroad, but you can't decide where, I can help you.
Well no, Ghost said that I was a slut and I said that even if I had lots of sex (and I meant with lots of people) I don't see why any one adult would care about what another adult was doing. I also said it was completely untrue (me being a slut) because the only man I ever slept with was my husband.
There is nothing to gain in going to bed with people I am not connected with, especially as a reason to get to know them. But those are my values and it pisses some men I've met in real life off. They take it as an insult.
I mentioned in this thread somewhere that I am not a white woman which is who I think feminism largely benefits. I don't feel bouts of outrage against men or have a problem with them for calling me attractive when I walk down the street. I've never been the recipient of a hostile man in public because I'm generally nice to people and see nothing difficult about it. I enjoy masculinity and this is part of what saddens me reading the things I do. Frankly I have a very large disconnect in conversations about feminism because I'm not the target audience. I don't study it, my friends don't talk about it, my father is still the head of the household who holds tremendous respect for my mother and she holds tremendous respect for him. Maybe being able to have a career is a benefit of feminism? My father urged me to do so because of the practicality. There was no guarantee that I would marry and be provided for. I am not a white women. Women in my culture all have to work, always had to, and we also have been taught since childhood how to run a household. It is not shameful, we take pride in it.
So now imagine me, on any given day, being confronted angrily about feminism. What am I supposed to say about it? Why should I analzye it and make myself as miserable as the people it upsets? This fight is for the inherently privileged. I am hardly the only woman I know who feels this way, who enjoys taking care of the man in her life and doesn't have an adversarial relationship with men. We are completely drowned out in the conversation. Completely. We also have to deal with the fallout like everyone else.
(eta: I should mention that my comment above is not to say that the problems with feminism are not real. There is no way this many people are so upset about it if it were imaginary. I am more saying that I don't feel like I'm a part of this conversation and wonder what women and men like me ought to do. How do traditional men find traditional women in America? Or family focused people with no interest in the politics but rather, a high quality of life?)
What I disagree with is the contempt, and the action taken against the opposite sex. Your post is very well written and I understand where you are coming from. But I guess if you were a woman and you discovered this world, how would you feel and how would you avoid being punished for these beliefs? I spent my afternoon reading Return of Kings which was linked by a poster here. What can I say to the many, many comments? I can't stop myself from growing older. If my husband and I had children, I would be a single mom and the glee in which they are talked about is terrifying. I understand the anger but wonder, alright, what do I do from here? I can't submit myself to acidic attitudes and don't think its necessary that I do. I have to withdraw myself and seek an appropriate partner and really try not to internalize all of the comments that suggest I'm worthless by virtue of my gender.
I think the men who choose to find love abroad for similar reasons I stated here, just wanting that peace in their households and love in their lives are absolutely right to do so. I want to do the same because I have a future family to think about and this just won't do.
oh yes, one more thing
Also while I think you stated many valuable points, I think this community is the minority. I think in reality, most guys are not going to take the efforts required to go abroad so the men you mentioned who settle, I think they are the majority. All this means is this problem remains stagnant, the acidic attitudes both genders inflict on each other only worse, and its just intolerable. We won't have the problem Japan is having where the men are largely opting out and birthrates dropping. Less marriage, more babies out of wedlock, and general unpleasantness is where we are.
There is a lot that I love about the US and I will always do my part to help make it better but I will not be shouldering the gender wars or bringing them into my household. I don't know if opting out will be harmful to me in any way but I do know when I walked away from my last date that trying to keep it here is not working either.
I understand that women probably don't stick around. I don't know if I will. I read and try to learn and will remain respectful of this community but as with anything, no one -and as a man who feels contempt for feminists you know this is true- enjoys hearing over and over how much they suck. I am trying my hardest to be very smart about how I handle the next few years and have to balance how I spend my energies doing so.