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What if the South had won the Civil War?

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What if the South had won the Civil War?

Postby Wolfeye » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:09 am

What do you guys think would have happened if the South had won in the American Civil War? I'm actually thinking that it would have turned things for the better, especially considering that the North never cared about slavery & functionally still had it- despite it being illegal.

Actually, I think slavery would have been abolished in the South on an ethical level eventually. There ARE times in history where this happened. There were even animal rights situations in centuries past (I remember reading about how the samurai used to use stray dogs for archery practice, but an emperor thought it was cruel & discontinued the practice). So I don't think it would have been a stretch to say that a region where 98% of the people didn't own slaves despite it being totally legal would have freed the slaves or sent them back to wherever they had come from. I don't think they would have gotten an equal status- but then there can be a bit of a "hometeam support" situation in Africa, too.

I think the Southerners, especially in those times, were just more of a real country- instead of a "takeover initiative." The Northerners were (and, to an extent, still are) very overriding people & seemed to engage in "extreme oneupsmanship" to the point of having actual wars- even within their own country. It's not like America really had a lot of enemies & yet they still managed to have numerous wars- some of them unsung years later. I get that arrogance isn't a uniquely American traits, but it's like they would "spike up" from treating other people like shit- never mind the whole "duper's delight" thing from lying about it. A weird thing is that they could have felt just as much self-esteem for NOT doing that, so I figure there's got to be something else at work. It's like when someone has malice as a motive, but people assume it was for want of money because the get paid for whatever it is. Seems that simple want of money is a just reason for basically anything in America, though- so I don't know if it's referenced as a complaint or positive PR.
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Re: What if the South had won the Civil War?

Postby Jester » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:36 pm

I have wondered why he US has Continuing Race Drama, while places like the Caymans and Bahamas just cruise happily along.

You can blame Jewish/Leftist agitation, but that seems like a stretch.

You can blame masons, but there are masons everywhere, ESPECIALLY throughout the British Empire.

So why do race relations in the US suck so much?

Why is intermarriage between Black and White still rare - and quietly despised?

I think the answer is.. so-called "Reconstruction".

Not content to have won the war, the Yankees imposed harsh military rule for decades after the war. Once-proud Southerners, America's most martial people, who had led the fight against Indians and Mexicans, were reduced to sneaking around, telling lies, keeping secrets.

Blacks who had remained loyal during years of war, who had suffered more from Yankee atrocities than had Whites, were now duped into collaborating with the Yankee occupation. Blacks must have been seen by many, to some extent, as a dangerous, disloyal population.

And the planter class, who took care of their slaves before, was broken, economically destroyed. Plantations shut down, there was no food. Blacks had to leave to forage and beg in town. So the Black population lost their protectors.

In Rome, freedmen still had a "patron", usually a former owner. You still see vestiges of this in Latin countries, where a poor family will ask a better-off person to be a godparent to their children.

In America alone, not the rest of Anglo slaveholding areas, Blacks were suddenly uprooted, unemployed, scattered, vulnerable.

In America alone, emancipation was associated not with the generosity and wisdom of an emperor (Brazil) or the collective agreement of society (British Empire), but with economic devastation by a hostile, uncivilized enemy- the Yankees.

So to answer the OP, I think a heavily Black state like South Carolina, if allowed to lawfully leave the Union unmolested, would have ended up at least somewhat resembling the relatively tranquil and racially integrated places in North America like Bermuda, Bahamas, Caymans, etc.

The quicker the Southern victory, the better. But any victory no matter how hard won, that forestalled the economic destruction of instant emancipation coupled with almost universal land confiscation, any victory that preserved the old order intact, would have led to a South that was calmer, more agricultural, more integrated, less "Americanized."
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-- Dr John Hunsucker, speaking about canoeing on Georgia's Lake Lanier, with its irregular shape, and 1000 miles of meandering shoreline
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Re: What if the South had won the Civil War?

Postby w.p.o. » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:40 pm

Wolfeye wrote:What do you guys think would have happened if the South had won in the American Civil War? I'm actually thinking that it would have turned things for the better, especially considering that the North never cared about slavery & functionally still had it- despite it being illegal.

Actually, I think slavery would have been abolished in the South on an ethical level eventually. There ARE times in history where this happened. There were even animal rights situations in centuries past (I remember reading about how the samurai used to use stray dogs for archery practice, but an emperor thought it was cruel & discontinued the practice). So I don't think it would have been a stretch to say that a region where 98% of the people didn't own slaves despite it being totally legal would have freed the slaves or sent them back to wherever they had come from. I don't think they would have gotten an equal status- but then there can be a bit of a "hometeam support" situation in Africa, too.

I think the Southerners, especially in those times, were just more of a real country- instead of a "takeover initiative." The Northerners were (and, to an extent, still are) very overriding people & seemed to engage in "extreme oneupsmanship" to the point of having actual wars- even within their own country. It's not like America really had a lot of enemies & yet they still managed to have numerous wars- some of them unsung years later. I get that arrogance isn't a uniquely American traits, but it's like they would "spike up" from treating other people like shit- never mind the whole "duper's delight" thing from lying about it. A weird thing is that they could have felt just as much self-esteem for NOT doing that, so I figure there's got to be something else at work. It's like when someone has malice as a motive, but people assume it was for want of money because the get paid for whatever it is. Seems that simple want of money is a just reason for basically anything in America, though- so I don't know if it's referenced as a complaint or positive PR.


Answer: what was going on in the early 1800s would be going on now. We'd probably still be working for free.

The north didn't care about slavery. They didn't care whether it ended or continued. The south CARED whether it ended or continued. In fact, they fought to keep it intact.
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Re: What if the South had won the Civil War?

Postby Wolfeye » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:51 pm

Jester: That explains a lot. Not a damn bit of that was in school, surprise surprise. I DO notice that emancipation was used as a weapon against the South & I'm remembering that they kind of gave a blank check (or, rather, encouraging shove) to the slaves & the Union soldiers to go rape the Southern women. Pretty fucked-up & something I'm relatively sure the South wouldn't have done. Not so much out of mercy, but quality. Also, having rapists in your crew will almost definitely cause problems within that crew- lots of character flaw with a taste for compulsion, especially if it's not a direct reciprocation (realistically, all kinds of shit can happen them or theirs- particularly in a POW camp or a regular lock-up situation).

This reaffirms what I've said for a while about America being a "melting pot"- as in "an influence of vitiation." Even domestically, with people they keep calling "brothers" & "their own," they'll try their damnedest to chop them down. Oddly enough, people expect this trait to just go away if there were a revolution or something. Why on Earth would the same bullshit you've always been dealing with go away in that case? If it WAS absent in a dangerous situation, it'd come right back when things cooled down. It'd probably come up mid-problem if it's been a while since someone "spiked-up" like that. So much like a junky that was a back-stabber to begin with.
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Re: What if the South had won the Civil War?

Postby The_Adventurer » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:48 am

Jester wrote:I have wondered why he US has Continuing Race Drama, while places like the Caymans and Bahamas just cruise happily along.


If you look at pirate history, in places like the Caribbean, especially the Bahamas, you had people of many races mixing together and cooperating for centuries. And it was out of necessity, all fighting for a common good. (usually against the British Empire) In America it really hasn't been that long. Just over 150 years. It's been only 50 years since blacks were still being freely hung from trees and burned alive. Given a couple hundred more years, things could improve.
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Re: What if the South had won the Civil War?

Postby cdnFA » Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:55 am

The TV show Hee Haw would probably still be on today.

If the CSA actually won over the north and took it over, I think the below is an interesting projection of what could have happened.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exnwTWfFRM8[/youtube]

What is interesting is how many ads in the movie are based on real products.
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Re: What if the South had won the Civil War?

Postby Jester » Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:22 pm

cdnFA wrote:The TV show Hee Haw would probably still be on today.

If the CSA actually won over the north and took it over, I think the below is an interesting projection of what could have happened.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exnwTWfFRM8[/youtube]

What is interesting is how many ads in the movie are based on real products.



Hee Haw... JESUS there were some beautiful women on that show.
And great music.
AMAZING that Yankees preferred Welcome Back Kotter and the like, no?

Thanks for the video. Watched the first 16 minutes or so, it was hilarious, till, you know, the PC South-is-bad part. Had to switch it off. But seriously would recommend first 16 minutes to any history buff. Hilarious stuff.
"Pick a point and go to it."
-- Dr John Hunsucker, speaking about canoeing on Georgia's Lake Lanier, with its irregular shape, and 1000 miles of meandering shoreline
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Re: What if the South had won the Civil War?

Postby cdnFA » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:11 am

Jester wrote:
cdnFA wrote:The TV show Hee Haw would probably still be on today.

If the CSA actually won over the north and took it over, I think the below is an interesting projection of what could have happened.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exnwTWfFRM8[/youtube]

What is interesting is how many ads in the movie are based on real products.



Hee Haw... JESUS there were some beautiful women on that show.
And great music.
AMAZING that Yankees preferred Welcome Back Kotter and the like, no?

Thanks for the video. Watched the first 16 minutes or so, it was hilarious, till, you know, the PC South-is-bad part. Had to switch it off. But seriously would recommend first 16 minutes to any history buff. Hilarious stuff.



You should give it a full shot. I found it was a movie for everyone, both those who are pro and anti. You can read what you want into things. Most of it goes the cheap alternative history route of shoehorning real history on an alternative time line. If you like the south, you should like what you see, if you hate the south, it should give you the shivers.
I loved the commercial.
The first one for insurance, protecting your family and your property as the camera pans to the black guy.
The Shackle.
A lot of them gave me the giggles.

I remember watching Hee Haw as a kid, just for the chicks. I was a horny kid starting at around 10.
BTW series creators... Canadian.

Nothing wrong with Welcome Back Kotter. Ms Kotter was hot, I always did like them nerdy and skinny.
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