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In order to become a "PUA" (Pick up artists) you need to study lot's of material, go to seminars, watch videos and approach women like crazy.

Now if a guy want's to go MGTOW all he has to do, is NOT go to bars and clubs to try and meet women. Not cold approach women or study PUA material. In other words, going MGTOW is far more easy than trying to become a "Pick up artist."

Now I know why more guys go MGTOW than try and become pick up artists.

jamesbond wrote:In order to become a "PUA" (Pick up artists) you need to study lot's of material, go to seminars, watch videos and approach women like crazy.

Now if a guy want's to go MGTOW all he has to do, is NOT go to bars and clubs to try and meet women. Not cold approach women or study PUA material. In other words, going MGTOW is far more easy than trying to become a "Pick up artist."

Now I know why more guys go MGTOW than try and become pick up artists.

That is very true, but isn't it also very obvious?

Lets not forget, PUA's love to prey on these guys by selling them books. MGTOW though, cost nothing.

They also "sell" that they "know" women, when they don't. They only know women's responses, but they don't know women.

They also put themselves at the top of the hierarchy, and you too can be at the top, if you follow their footsteps. Failure to do so results in being labeled "beta", or worse, "virgin".

These guys play women for the thrill of the game, but to me, they are not people we should hold as "top of the ladder" top notch guys. They are good at what they do, but they live hedonistic lifestyles. Certainly not a role model for the children.

While MRA/MGTOW share often similar opinions, however there is not much in common between PUA and MGTOW.

MGTOW means merely get out of the mainstream, look around, do something different, don't care too much about what people are thinking about you.

PUA however means to approach women openly and aggressively after doing some studies and exercises - PUA is about how to catch the attention of females. I got the impression PUA is about showing up not as 'yourself' 'not as you really are in daily life' but as an 'actor'.

There is nothing wrong about MGTOW or PUA, just they do not have much in common. Up to the individual, whatever you want to try.

MGTOW costs nothing? Not really, it is more about spending your money in a different way - for example instead buying a diamond ring for a typical American girl you buy a motorcycle for yourself.

For one thing being a PUA takes a lot of time, energy and resources, in my experience with western women at least. In the philippines its far easier and the payoff for your effort is many times greater

Even top level pua's have to get many numbers and use a lot of 'game' before getting laid, for me its not something i want to devote a huge part of my life to

I am very much against MGTOW. I used to be completely against PUA, but now I am only 99% against it.

You should know though, this is a false dichotomy, or a false dilemma. There are more than these two options. The choices aren't simply MGTOW or PUA.

MGTOW is simply the path of least resistance. It is surrender and defeat masked under the guise of safety and security. That's all it is. It is retreat. The sad fact though is, no one ever really fired a shot at most of them. They fight against shadows and ghosts of their own imaginations. Mostly MGTOW isn't even a problem of laws but rather the inability to connect with women.

I disagree with the practice of PUA because those men have no intention of marrying those women. If they want to fornicate, they should not be chasing down non-sex working women to seduce them. And if those women are all just whores, what prize is it to sleep with a free whore vs a paid one? A free whore is still a whore who would sleep with anyone (cause it isn't about you being hot). It's just she's stupid enough to do it for free.

PUA is also a lot of work, and if the woman really does like you, it isn't something you have to work for but rather something that is simply available to you. These guys may or may not be jumping through lots of hoops but also they have to learn many manipulative techniques which are unnecessary if the woman already likes you for you. If you have to Jedi mind trick her into having intercourse with you, have you really "won" or conquered anything? No, you just pressed the buttons that you knew were there. It doesn't mean that she would have picked you under her own will power had you not reached into her subconscious and pressed those buttons. And then the women are discarded like trash. PUAs are directly using people.

The fundamental contradiction at the heart of PUA is that it is supposed to be all about self-confidence, but at the same time you are trained to act like a different person. If you really had self-confidence, you wouldn't have to self-consciously play a role in social situations.

But my main problem with PUA is that it is an inefficient (and morally dubious) way to get laid. All the effort guys waste on pick-up lines and spending time in club after club could be spent earning money to pay for a hooker.

Mongering has a much greater return on investment than PUA. (Also, you don't look stupid.)

Adama wrote: MGTOW is simply the path of least resistance. It is surrender and defeat masked under the guise of safety and security. That's all it is. It is retreat.

The sad fact though is, no one ever really fired a shot at most of them. They fight against shadows and ghosts of their own imaginations. Mostly MGTOW isn't even a problem of laws but rather the inability to connect with women.

No man is into MGTOW out of nothing, out of no reason.

Men turning to MGTOW had real bad experiences in their past with females, it's not about shadows and ghosts out of imagination.

I said females, MGTOW is in many cases not only about badly treated by a female partner and not only about being not able to find a female partner.

The bad experiences are real and are often coming from other females next to them like mother, sisters, female teachers, female class-mates, female co-workers, even own daughters etc. -

Some other MGTOW merely observe how some of their male friends are treated - they lost everything after divorce, shall pay alimony and child-support, or are falsely accused for samething by a female etc. they are scared about legal consequences, if something is going wrong and I cannot blame them, as there is nothing what they can do about.

You mentioned safety, security = risk-averse. What is wrong if a man is looking for safety and security? What is the alternative?

Finally, it's up to the man too how he will arrange his future life-style. He has the right to reject a personal relationship with certain women or even with all women if he feels uncomfortable with them. He has the right to travel around looking for a female partner from other countries if he mistrusts women living next to him. He has the right to remain single if he prefers that.

I disagree with the practice of PUA because those men have no intention of marrying those women....
And then the women are discarded like trash. PUAs are directly using people.

Even if those women are discarded like trash, they never have any financial risk like men do after a relationship is broken up.

How many men are discarded like trash? How many women are using 'people' (=man)? What I am expected to do?

Shall I feel sorry for women who are cheated by PUA, bad boys and similar braggarts?
Why shall I feel sorry only for women and not for men who are badly cheated too all the time?

Sorry, ladies, but better choose your male partner more carefully in future. It's easy, there are plenty of honest men around you, nowadays men looking out outnumber females 6:1 - just look up any dating site or ask around in your neighborhood.

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It's easier to drop out of high school, then to study and graduate. It is easier to be unemployed, then to go to job interviews. It's easier to stay at home, then to book a flight and travel. It's easier to watch TV from the couch, then to go someplace with friends...

The world is filled with lazy people who are not making use of all the options at their disposal. It is easier to be lazy, after all. Or, in the words of Yohan and others: to be "risk-averse". The problem is, however, that all things worth doing in life are always the things that may come at a price. The things that involve some degree of risk. The only way to avoid it all, is to avoid living life altogether. Now some men may kid themselves, into believing they are doing the smartest thing by avoiding life. And maybe, from a technical point of view, they are. But me, I like to live life and enjoy it too.

I could just focus on myself only, stay at home, avoid all things that could be a potential risk. Would I be happier for it? I doubt it. I may have less risk. I may be less in danger of losing something. But in avoiding, so desperately, any sense of losing... I would be losing out on life itself. You can justify that all you want, but for me that is simply unjustifiable. It's like "the boy in the plastic bubble"... maybe never leaving your bubble will make you live a thousand years. But all those thousand years will bring you, is a thousand years of watching other people enjoy life while you are just a passive viewer, a passerby... you can play the game, and get hurt, or you can live your life just watching on the sideline. It's sad people nowadays feel so demoralized all they do is watch the game and no longer play.

MarcosZeitola wrote:It's easier to drop out of high school, then to study and graduate. It is easier to be unemployed, then to go to job interviews. It's easier to stay at home, then to book a flight and travel. It's easier to watch TV from the couch, then to go someplace with friends...

The world is filled with lazy people who are not making use of all the options at their disposal. It is easier to be lazy, after all. Or, in the words of Yohan and others: to be "risk-averse". The problem is, however, that all things worth doing in life are always the things that may come at a price. The things that involve some degree of risk. The only way to avoid it all, is to avoid living life altogether. Now some men may kid themselves, into believing they are doing the smartest thing by avoiding life. And maybe, from a technical point of view, they are. But me, I like to live life and enjoy it too.

I could just focus on myself only, stay at home, avoid all things that could be a potential risk. Would I be happier for it? I doubt it. I may have less risk. I may be less in danger of losing something. But in avoiding, so desperately, any sense of losing... I would be losing out on life itself. You can justify that all you want, but for me that is simply unjustifiable. It's like "the boy in the plastic bubble"... maybe never leaving your bubble will make you live a thousand years. But all those thousand years will bring you, is a thousand years of watching other people enjoy life while you are just a passive viewer, a passerby... you can play the game, and get hurt, or you can live your life just watching on the sideline. It's sad people nowadays feel so demoralized all they do is watch the game and no longer play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IsO7Rm-sXA

MarcosZeitola wrote:It's easier to drop out of high school, then to study and graduate. It is easier to be unemployed, then to go to job interviews. It's easier to stay at home, then to book a flight and travel. It's easier to watch TV from the couch, then to go someplace with friends...

The world is filled with lazy people who are not making use of all the options at their disposal. It is easier to be lazy, after all. Or, in the words of Yohan and others: to be "risk-averse". The problem is, however, that all things worth doing in life are always the things that may come at a price. The things that involve some degree of risk. The only way to avoid it all, is to avoid living life altogether. Now some men may kid themselves, into believing they are doing the smartest thing by avoiding life. And maybe, from a technical point of view, they are. But me, I like to live life and enjoy it too.

I could just focus on myself only, stay at home, avoid all things that could be a potential risk. Would I be happier for it? I doubt it. I may have less risk. I may be less in danger of losing something. But in avoiding, so desperately, any sense of losing... I would be losing out on life itself. You can justify that all you want, but for me that is simply unjustifiable. It's like "the boy in the plastic bubble"... maybe never leaving your bubble will make you live a thousand years. But all those thousand years will bring you, is a thousand years of watching other people enjoy life while you are just a passive viewer, a passerby... you can play the game, and get hurt, or you can live your life just watching on the sideline. It's sad people nowadays feel so demoralized all they do is watch the game and no longer play.

Valid points. It's a bit like he who dares wins.

MGTOW's coping strategy is to curl up in a ball under the bed while everyone else goes on with life. PUA is to go out, make a fool of themselves, and use Jedi mind tricks on unwilling and unsuspecting women to get them into bed, and then discard them like trash.

Adama wrote:MGTOW's coping strategy is to curl up in a ball under the bed while everyone else goes on with life.
PUA is to go out, make a fool of themselves, and use Jedi mind tricks on unwilling and unsuspecting women to get them into bed, and then discard them like trash.

Unwilling or not, these women are above the age of consent, often adults and therefore responsible for their actions.

If they give consent and go with such guys and are dumped after, it's their problem, and nobody's else problem.
What else did they expect if they prefer PUA, bad boys and similar fuckers for a one-night-stand and ignore totally other men who are still single, honest but inexperienced.

I am not supportive to PUA, not at all - but you cannot blame men using PUA for dumped women who regret after their decisions...

I don't feel sorry for such women, their problem - for sure not the problem for MGTOW.

Yohan wrote:

Adama wrote:MGTOW's coping strategy is to curl up in a ball under the bed while everyone else goes on with life.
PUA is to go out, make a fool of themselves, and use Jedi mind tricks on unwilling and unsuspecting women to get them into bed, and then discard them like trash.

Unwilling or not, these women are above the age of consent, often adults and therefore responsible for their actions.

If they give consent and go with such guys and are dumped after, it's their problem, and nobody's else problem.
What else did they expect if they prefer PUA, bad boys and similar fuckers for a one-night-stand and ignore totally other men who are still single, honest but inexperienced.

I am not supportive to PUA, not at all - but you cannot blame men using PUA for dumped women who regret after their decisions...

I don't feel sorry for such women, their problem - for sure not the problem for MGTOW.

No, what PUAs are doing with women is very evil because they are discarding those women. It is not that women naturally seek PUA. Is this where your mind is stuck? PUAs use psychological manipulation to get what they want from women they have no intention of marrying/wifing.

Look at it this way:

1. There are men who women like and they will sleep with those men freely. Those men don't have to lie, use tricks or manipulate because women want them for them. These are the natural players. Women will actively pursue these men.
2a. Then there are the men who women do not automatically want. These men learn psychology to get inside women's minds.
2b. Not only are these men psychologically manipulating women into sleeping with them (men they ordinarily would not sleep with), these men are also using those women and discarding them in serial "pump and dump" fashion.

Now is 2 more grievous than 1? To me definitely. In number one the woman chose the man SHE WANTED. With the second, it is because she was manipulated into doing it by a man whose only intention was to use her and to discard her immediately after. She would not have gone with him at all, if he had not employed psychological warfare against her.

But because you have neither a soul or a true sense of morality, these concepts are outside your comprehension.

The only good part about PUA is that they have learned that men can lead women easily (something you suckers still don't know). The problem is they abuse that authority.