Join John Adams, world renowned Intl Matchmaker, Monday nights 8:30 EST for Live Webcasts!
And check out Five Reasons why you should attend a FREE AFA Seminar! See locations and dates here.



View Active Topics       View Your Posts       Latest 100 Topics       FAQ Topics       Mobile Friendly Theme


When is debating / discussing a waste of time or useful?

Discuss and talk about any general topic.

Moderators: fschmidt, jamesbond

Post Reply
Johnny1975
Experienced Poster
Posts: 1471
Joined: September 23rd, 2012, 12:07 am

When is debating / discussing a waste of time or useful?

Post by Johnny1975 » March 20th, 2017, 2:20 am

When is it worth discussing something with someone that disagrees with you worthwhile, and when is it a waste of time? I'm talking any type of discussion, from a friendly disagreement to a heated debate.

I wish most people were intellectually honest, reasonable, and open minded. Then this would never be an issue, because every discussion would at least be somewhat constructive. The only reason why it's even possible to say that discussions are a waste of time is because so many people are incapable of reasoned discussion.

If a person is wrong but they still succeed in something, the reality is that they got lucky or somehow managed to avoid all factors that they couldn't handle. And a person can be right and still fail, because they were unlucky. An ignorant person would automatically assume that the one who succeeded was right. That's so stupid, and obviously so, but many people don't get it. They don't see that there's a distinction. It's like a scientist telling another scientist "prove it", instead of exercising curiosity.

I think in a debate people should always try to ask themselves "is there any way that the other person could be right?". They should, in their minds, try to prove themselves wrong and the other person right, as well as them right and the other person wrong. They should look at all angles.

Where do you draw the line between trying and hoping to get through to the other person and getting them to at least understand your point of view and the bits in which you're might be right (even if they could still disagree)...and deciding that it's pointless?

Why do people assume that all of us are driven by nothing but ego when in a debate? Why do they not realize that some people really do want an honest discussion?

Just some thoughts.
Last edited by Johnny1975 on March 20th, 2017, 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Location Independent Expat Relocate​

If you want to move abroad, but you can't decide where, I can help you.

http://lierelocate.weebly.com/




Check out our Dating Sites and International Romance Tours!



User avatar
droid
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 3092
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 7:38 am

Re: When is debating / discussing a waste of time or useful?

Post by droid » March 20th, 2017, 5:38 am

What a fantastic post, Johnny1975.

Debating/discussing allows examining your own ideas and also getting new information you might not have been aware of.
It's a great exercise in logic and it's also good to polish your writing skills and increase your vocabulary. There's also the entertainment/joking parts, which can be direct or subtle.

But once one of the parties deviates from honesty or logic, the dialogue is disrupted .i.e. ceases to exist, and you start wasting your time, at that point it's probably good to disengage, unless the entertainment value somehow offsets the time-wasting lol.

There is a great deal of ego that gets thrown in it, we are all guilty of this to an extent I guess. Most people are kind of set on their dogmas, and find it hard to revise them.
In my experience, if you really want to make a difference and not just "win" on some subject, one must get the other person on your side and give them some room to save "face", this will likely bring a more successful outcome.

Another possibility, although a bit more ruthless, is to exploit peoples very biases, in such a way that they can not bring themselves to disagree with you. You kind of lock them in their own cognitive dissonance.

Schopenhauer had this great pamphlet, about some of these things.
http://xenopraxis.net/readings/schopenh ... gright.pdf

But I find it surprising some of the dishonest or even honest debate tactics seem to lack formal names to this day, beyond the formal logical fallacies.
For example, when people, kind of justifiably, refuse to concede a point, because a dishonest extrapolation will be then made that the whole of their arguments are thus wrong as well, and even followed by the disqualification of their debating ability etc. Not just some simple ad-hominem, or strawmen here, more like dialogue cornering attempts.

Wouldn't you agree? lol
1)Too much of one thing defeats the purpose.
2)Everybody is full of it. What's your hypocrisy?

User avatar
Cornfed
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 5911
Joined: August 17th, 2012, 5:22 am

Re: When is debating / discussing a waste of time or useful?

Post by Cornfed » March 20th, 2017, 6:37 am

To answer the OP, it depends on who is doing it. For you, it is always a waste of time. You should just shut your stupid mouth and take orders from you superiors, i.e. everyone.

User avatar
droid
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 3092
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 7:38 am

Re: When is debating / discussing a waste of time or useful?

Post by droid » March 20th, 2017, 8:26 am

Bitter much? Why don't you just go on that rampage once and for all, rest assured the forum can continue without you.
1)Too much of one thing defeats the purpose.
2)Everybody is full of it. What's your hypocrisy?

drealm
Junior Poster
Posts: 936
Joined: November 10th, 2010, 6:23 pm

Re: When is debating / discussing a waste of time or useful?

Post by drealm » March 20th, 2017, 8:47 am

I think the concept of civilized disagreement is something that only exists amongst white people, but even probably more so Nordics. Non whites only see discussion in terms of outcomes. They have no abstract interest in letting the brain wonder around to feel out things. Probably the reason why white countries advanced so far but are also so screwed up these days. Only whites can discuss their way civilly into stupidity where as the other races are prevented by their more concrete instincts.

To answer your question more specifically, I would say debate is only worthwhile in a shared community of intelligent and moral people. There's no point trying to convince someone outside your community of anything. That is what salesmanship and evangelism is for, both of which use emotion rather than logic.

Adama
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 5639
Joined: August 23rd, 2009, 10:37 pm

Re: When is debating / discussing a waste of time or useful?

Post by Adama » March 20th, 2017, 1:52 pm

State your ideas with their proofs. If they are open to them, they will be converted or inquire.

However, most of the time people are not interested. If they show disinterest, let them go. It's that simple. After you have told them your argument, if they don't want to accept it, stop conversation. At that point it egos are involved and you won't change their minds.

User avatar
Teal Lantern
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2767
Joined: August 14th, 2012, 12:48 am
Location: Briar Patch, Universe 25

Re: When is debating / discussing a waste of time or useful?

Post by Teal Lantern » March 22nd, 2017, 6:50 pm

Johnny1975 wrote:Where do you draw the line between trying and hoping to get through to the other person and getting them to at least understand your point of view and the bits in which you're might be right (even if they could still disagree)...and deciding that it's pointless?
When I realize the other person is certifiably insane.
E.g.: :lol: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=35456
не поглеждай назад. 8)

"Even an American judge is unlikely to award child support for imputed children." - FredOnEverything

Johnny1975
Experienced Poster
Posts: 1471
Joined: September 23rd, 2012, 12:07 am

Re: When is debating / discussing a waste of time or useful?

Post by Johnny1975 » March 22nd, 2017, 10:54 pm

Teal Lantern wrote:
Johnny1975 wrote:Where do you draw the line between trying and hoping to get through to the other person and getting them to at least understand your point of view and the bits in which you're might be right (even if they could still disagree)...and deciding that it's pointless?
When I realize the other person is certifiably insane.
E.g.: :lol: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=35456

I hear that.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCA48Dn ... BRw/videos
Location Independent Expat Relocate​

If you want to move abroad, but you can't decide where, I can help you.

http://lierelocate.weebly.com/

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 25365
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: When is debating / discussing a waste of time or useful?

Post by Winston » March 23rd, 2017, 4:31 pm

In an ideal world, discussing and debating with those who hold different opinions as you would be a productive thing that you and your friend could learn from. But in reality that's not the case, because western men have this thing I call "intellectual machoism" in that every guy thinks they know it all and are right about everything and act arrogant. Logically, we should be humble and consider that we may be wrong. But very few western men do that, including us. We all like to pretend to be know it alls. It's part of the western male ego for some reason.

We aren't as open minded as we think we are. None of us like to be wrong. So we deny being wrong. We are all hypocrites too in that we love to dish out criticism but refuse to take criticism ourselves.

Another problem is that we all tend to cherry pick and have confirmation bias. We seek evidence that supports what we want to believe and hang on it.

Most of us are also not truth seekers in that we don't follow the evidence or data. Any whodunnit novel will tell you that to find the culprit, you must "follow the money, and follow the evidence trail". I do that and so do many truth seekers. But many of us don't do that. We make up our minds about what's true and not and that's that, end of story. Anything else is bullshit.

When I met Billy, I noticed he did this a lot too. Even though he was educated and had a lot of useful knowledge, still his mind was narrow and closed and he admitted it. He felt that being closed minded was better so he didn't have to deal with too much junk and distractions and BS. But often, if he doesn't understand something or doesn't know something, he will label is as "bullshit" anyway so he doesn't have to deal with it. The problem with this is that words do NOT create reality. If someone says 2+2=4 and you say it's "bullshit" it does not mean it is bullshit or wrong. Calling something doesn't make it so. Denying something doesn't make it wrong or false. Words do NOT create reality. But many men, such as Billy, seem to think they do. They think they are gods and masters of the universe and that anything they call "bullshit" must be false and wrong and full of shit. It's not true of course, but many men think like this. They think they are god and the master of the universe and can label anything they want and that is their reality. lol. It's totally delusional. But many men are like this. It's like they have a god complex. It's very illogical, but many men do this, including us HAers. I'm one of the few that do not do this.

To have a truly productive debate or discussion, both parties must be open minded and humble and learn to LISTEN more to the other side. And I mean BOTH parties, not just the other guy you are debating, but YOU YOURSELF as well. This goes for all of us. We all seem to demand that the other side be open minded to hearing our truths only, but we don't feel obligated to be open minded to hearing the other side's truths as well. That's the problem.
Check out my video series Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Also see my HA Grand Ebook and Join Our Dating Sites to support us!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World

User avatar
starchild5
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2172
Joined: December 20th, 2013, 11:32 am

Re: When is debating / discussing a waste of time or useful?

Post by starchild5 » March 24th, 2017, 3:38 am

Winston wrote:In an ideal world, discussing and debating with those who hold different opinions as you would be a productive thing that you and your friend could learn from. But in reality that's not the case, because western men have this thing I call "intellectual machoism" in that every guy thinks they know it all and are right about everything and act arrogant. Logically, we should be humble and consider that we may be wrong. But very few western men do that, including us. We all like to pretend to be know it alls. It's part of the western male ego for some reason.

We aren't as open minded as we think we are. None of us like to be wrong. So we deny being wrong. We are all hypocrites too in that we love to dish out criticism but refuse to take criticism ourselves.

Another problem is that we all tend to cherry pick and have confirmation bias. We seek evidence that supports what we want to believe and hang on it.

Most of us are also not truth seekers in that we don't follow the evidence or data. Any whodunnit novel will tell you that to find the culprit, you must "follow the money, and follow the evidence trail". I do that and so do many truth seekers. But many of us don't do that. We make up our minds about what's true and not and that's that, end of story. Anything else is bullshit.

When I met Billy, I noticed he did this a lot too. Even though he was educated and had a lot of useful knowledge, still his mind was narrow and closed and he admitted it. He felt that being closed minded was better so he didn't have to deal with too much junk and distractions and BS. But often, if he doesn't understand something or doesn't know something, he will label is as "bullshit" anyway so he doesn't have to deal with it. The problem with this is that words do NOT create reality. If someone says 2+2=4 and you say it's "bullshit" it does not mean it is bullshit or wrong. Calling something doesn't make it so. Denying something doesn't make it wrong or false. Words do NOT create reality. But many men, such as Billy, seem to think they do. They think they are gods and masters of the universe and that anything they call "bullshit" must be false and wrong and full of shit. It's not true of course, but many men think like this. They think they are god and the master of the universe and can label anything they want and that is their reality. lol. It's totally delusional. But many men are like this. It's like they have a god complex. It's very illogical, but many men do this, including us HAers. I'm one of the few that do not do this.

To have a truly productive debate or discussion, both parties must be open minded and humble and learn to LISTEN more to the other side. And I mean BOTH parties, not just the other guy you are debating, but YOU YOURSELF as well. This goes for all of us. We all seem to demand that the other side be open minded to hearing our truths only, but we don't feel obligated to be open minded to hearing the other side's truths as well. That's the problem.
Not with western men alone..I think it's human race problem.

If you are a truth seeker...You would GET IT in less than seven seconds or so...BECAUSE

The connection of TRUTH is with the HEART not with the MIND.

You can NEVER EVER FIND Truth with your BRAIN...

All these theories, proofs, debates, explanation amounts to nothing in front of what our heart thinks.

I'm afraid your friend billy is about to become full of BS himself :mrgreen: ...when you try to avoid BS and not deal with it..You become one with BS itself :)

I have to mention our esteemed members Adama and MrMan here for whom truth must resonate with Jesus and bible :mrgreen: but for others ..we can just go with our hearts alone...that would do..We do not need secondary Jesus/bible confirmation :)

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “General Discussions”