"Nobody owes you anything" means "Thou shalt not make friends."

[Ghost]

.

[Darrell_Johnston]

So, go ahead, define self-improvement here. Take a few sentences to do it, that's fine.

Ok seeing as you asked so nicely.....

I define it as the advancement of personal knowledge, situation, status, or character through effort and practice

Whats your definition?

My point was that "self-improvement" doesn't affect the shitty system that men live under in the West. That's why going abroad works, ya doofus.

May I ask?.......What kind of improvement did you do at home? what were you trying to achieve?

[Ghost]

.

[Darrell_Johnston]

And what country are you currently in @ghost ?

[Ghost]

.

[Darrell_Johnston]

@ghost Why are you there? Are you stuck there atm?

[Ghost]

.

[CodeHarder]

> Nobody DOES owe you anything, except to be nice and civil to you.

You're not owed that either.

[Darrell_Johnston]

I'm not answering anymore of your questions. You don't answer questions clearly, so you cannot expect others to answer yours. If you were sincere and honest, I'd accept such a conversation. But since I know you are just looking for an angle, no.

Just trying to get a bigger picture of where you are coming from, if you don't want to talk though......thats fine....no pressure....maybe another time.

[onethousandknives]

Whats your definition?

I recognize two forms. One is legitimate, the other is false.

The legitimate form of self-improvement is this: improving skills, knowledge, and anything that you have control over. For example: you want to lose weight, learn to play guitar, learn a foreign language, and so on. You have control over these things (and you can measure them) so this is legitimate improvement. This is what I practice.

The scam form of self-improvement is this: trying to control things that you do not control, such as your personality or the society you live in. Sometimes it can be nebulous. Is a man's personality set in stone? A man can change habits that are related to personality (habits would fall under legitimate self-improvement), but he cannot change who he is. Some things are inborn, and it is this that is set in stone. In other words, your self is your self - you cannot truly change it. Self-improvement is really a misnomer because the self is what it is - there is no improving or worsening it.

May I ask?.......What kind of improvement did you do at home? what were you trying to achieve?

Depends on which part of my life you're talking about.

Years ago, I tried conventional self-improvement stuff: I thought success in dating was all about confidence, got into reading PUA stuff, etc. All that bullshit failed of course.

When I was still in my blue pill days I focused on a lot of conventional stuff to try to build my life: I finished my education, tried my damndest to get a job in my field, tried the numbers game in dating, and so on. What I got in return for my effort was shit. By this time I had given up on the absurdity of PUA but I still believed in the "it's all about confidence, just be yourself" bullshit.

Nowadays I practice legitimate improvement. I take things that I can control and measure and work on them. The way I apply for jobs, losing weight, getting in shape, improving my looks (to the extent that I can), reading and learning, language study, writing, and so on.

I'm doing these things for a variety of reasons. Some are personal goals, some are for my health, some are hobbies I want to get better at.

But these things are within my control, hence they can be improved. What they don't do is change the system. American women are still slutty bitches. The job market is still shit. People are still socially cold. America still has no sense of community or social fabric. This society still has no decent future ahead. I don't control those things.

I can talk to women just as confident as could be, but that doesn't help me if I've only got worthless bitches to talk to. I can ace job interviews, but if the employer has already made up his mind I don't even have the ability to influence his decision.

It doesn't matter what I believe about these things. In practice I am more on the incremental side of things but even if I wasn't I would still live in the same shitty system with the same limitations. This is about running up against cold, hard reality.

I think this is a relatively decent way to look at self improvement. One thing a Japanese Youtuber I watch said as well is he very much hates the American obsession with "confidence." He argues true confidence only really comes from competence. Anything else is just you literally faking things. So, with self improvement, you only gain confidence from doing what you state, getting more competence at things. Otherwise, being confident without competence is just acting and faking and in some ways lying to people. If acting and faking is "self improvement" well, I don't know then. The other thing as well with confidence is it's not necessarily a good thing due to the Dunning Kruger effect, generally in my experience (at least in USA, because "confidence" is so important) the most confident people are usually the least skilled at what you want them to do, especially if you're hiring someone, etc. In this way, US culture unlike Asian culture values confidence over humility, whereas Asian culture due to valuing humility is somewhat anti-confidence, which is why some "unconfident losers" thrive in Asia after not doing as well in USA, as the confident bro jock who aces the job interview a lot of times are not liked/trusted in Asia.

One thing as well with "being yourself" and that sort of stuff. Ultimately, people's selves are determined by their environment to a large degree. One other Youtuber I watch is Taiwanese-American, and his parents escaped the mainland after the war. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7Z0qcEGECs It's a good video to watch regardless. Anyway, he was talking to his mother about the cultural revolution in mainland China, and how they were glad to escape. With the talk of people ratting out their parents to get executed/etc, his mother said "No, if I stayed, I would have done it, too." Everyone thinks they're some badass who wouldn't do something bad in X situation, or would adapt differently, etc. And there's outliers, but really, your society, your experiences, your family, really largely determine your personality, or what "you" are. So where I think again going abroad, and even this benefit lingers coming back to USA, going abroad can give you essentially the ability to explore an alternate "you" without the prior confines imposed by the above, but possibly with different confines, thus exposing another dimension of yourself. Obviously this goes to the arguments of nature vs nurture and all that fun stuff, but I'm of the opinion now environment and past experiences probably determine 70+% of "You" or your personality.

[Darrell_Johnston]

I recognize two forms. One is legitimate, the other is false.

The legitimate form of self-improvement is this: improving skills, knowledge, and anything that you have control over. For example: you want to lose weight, learn to play guitar, learn a foreign language, and so on. You have control over these things (and you can measure them) so this is legitimate improvement. This is what I practice.

So why have you been arguing with me about self-improvement?, thats exactly the same as my definition.

The scam form of self-improvement is this: trying to control things that you do not control, such as your personality or the society you live in.

Ive never heard anyone in personal development say you can change society....have you? But it is possible to change societies....Politicians and activists do it.

Sometimes it can be nebulous. Is a man's personality set in stone?

No.

A man can change habits that are related to personality (habits would fall under legitimate self-improvement),

Yes he can.

but he cannot change who he is

.

If you change your habits and behaviours then your character changes with it

Some things are inborn, and it is this that is set in stone.

Like what? Height? Race? Gender?

In other words, your self is your self - you cannot truly change it. .

What does that mean? The self is the self?

Self-improvement is really a misnomer because the self is what it is - there is no improving or worsening it

Sounds like entity theory to me...but I dont know what you are refering to when you say the self. To me the self is the mind.....and the mind can always be improved through the ways you listed at the top..."improving skills, knowledge"

[Darrell_Johnston]

He argues true confidence only really comes from competence. Anything else is just you literally faking things.

Totally agree, confidence comes from knowing who you are and what you are capable of.

It also comes from doing things that you are scared to do.

So, with self improvement, you only gain confidence from doing what you state, getting more competence at things. Otherwise, being confident without competence is just acting and faking and in some ways lying to people.

Yes, fake confidence is basically cockiness.....and it does not inspire anyone.....its seriously off putting.

If acting and faking is "self improvement" well, I don't know then.

It isnt, faking anything is not improving.....its cheating. There is no improvement from cheating

One thing as well with "being yourself" and that sort of stuff. Ultimately, people's selves are determined by their environment to a large degree.

We are all a byproduct of our enviroment, but we are also co-creators of our own lives, many people seem to think its one or the other.....but its both.

One other Youtuber I watch is Taiwanese-American, and his parents escaped the mainland after the war. It's a good video to watch regardless. Anyway, he was talking to his mother about the cultural revolution in mainland China, and how they were glad to escape. With the talk of people ratting out their parents to get executed/etc, his mother said "No, if I stayed, I would have done it, too." Everyone thinks they're some badass who wouldn't do something bad in X situation, or would adapt differently, etc.

Jordan peterson talks about how if you were born in nazi germany during the war....the chances of you becoming na nazi and carrying out terrible acts in the name of society would be quite high....we all have potential to do bad and no one wants to admit it, I had this conversaton recently and this guy was convinced he would not have been brainwashed by german propaganda and he would have escaped.....maybe he would, maybe he wouldnt, but the chances of that happening are low because he wouldnt be the same person that he is now with the different influences.

And there's outliers, but really, your society, your experiences, your family, really largely determine your personality, or what "you" are.

All you past experiences contribute to who you are as a person and how you see life, but as an adult we should all seek to grow out of our conditioning and stop allowing the past to determine who we are and cultivate yourself.....IMO

So where I think again going abroad, and even this benefit lingers coming back to USA, going abroad can give you essentially the ability to explore an alternate "you" without the prior confines imposed by the above, but possibly with different confines, thus exposing another dimension of yourself.

Definitely.....change of environment is one of the biggest life-changing experiences.

Obviously, this goes to the arguments of nature vs nurture and all that fun stuff, but I'm of the opinion now environment and past experiences probably determine 70+% of "You" or your personality.

Perhaps.....I have no idea.....it would probably differ from person to person. Did you read the implicit theories of intelligence thread? Some people are totally sculpted by the environment, if you are condemned to victimhood through conspiratorial forces, your agency is an illusion. You're not your own master, you're at the mercy of circumstances outside of your control

Some people have more control over their life situaton than others