Implicit theories of intelligence - Entity vs. Incremental View

[publicduende]

Yes he can....an entity theorist would ask "how can i get a job?" Or "how can i get a girl?" An incremental theorist will ask "how can i become the type of person that someone would want to employ ? " or "how can i become the type of person that women want to be with?" Because with entity theorists the last part always gets skipped....its the magic pill society...the fad diets...the pua books with 3 steps to getting into her pants with out having to change anything about yourself bullshit is all marketed towards entity theorists....the last part requires effort and entity theory doesn't like that

Very well said, Darrell Johnston. We are adaptive creatures, we shape up based on the environment we are in. The first step of adapting to our environment is to become aware of it, analyse it, understanding it.

Animals have a very limited understanding of their environment and naturally compensate by being over-aggressive or over-defensive, depending on the situation. A dog who's been kicked by a few men will run away whenever he sees anyone, even a woman who's giving them food.

We live in a much more complicated world and I don't blame ourselves if we fail to understand the world we live in. Back on topic, yes, there is a mix of late-wave feminism, globalised fashions and trends and access to an ideal of beauty and success that is universal and "universally" enticing.

We HA men claim our birthright to a hot young girl who will love us for who we are, yet we are incapable of recognising qualities beyond physical appearance (or lack thereof) in the average women we can meet at the church or supermarket. What makes us think that girls have different desires and expectations?

We have to be in shape, well-groomed, with a little bit of confidence in our pockets, to attract attractive girls. That's what it is.

Once we understand this simple point, we may realise that, as you say, there are no shortcuts, no magic pills, no 3-day methods. We may then start improving ourselves, like many do.

Yet, you will recognise, it is slightly easier and better when we know why we have to do it, and why we are doing it.

[Darrell_Johnston]

Btw I recently talked to @publicduende on the phone and we came to an understanding. Even if I'm right that they do exist, still they cannot control us or possess us 100 percent. The universe or God does not allow them to completely control us unless we ask them to. We still have some free will. But they can influence us of course. And the more we submit to them or give in, the stronger their influence becomes.

It's a controversial topic @Winston. Whether they exist or not, and what exactly they are (spirits of dead people, spirits who have always had that form, etc.) is highly debatable.

What's important to stress is that our free will should trump everything else. God, or Gods, or our Makers gave us free will, which means we are always in power to choose good from evil, or at least what's good for us from what is not.

I think thats a fair statement.

I think the difference between an entity theorist and a incremental theorist who both believe paranormal would be like this....

Incremental "I believe a in god (or gods), but god gave me free will"
Entity "I believe in a god (or gods) and that god or (gods) controls everything that happens

Incremental " I believe in ghosts and spirits but I don't believe they have any influence over living people
Entity" " I believe in ghosts and spirits and they are my guardians who send me good and bad fortune"

The difference is free will and and personal power vs no free will and learned helplessness.

Entity theory is described by psychologists as learned helplessness

[Darrell_Johnston]

. A dog who's been kicked by a few men will run away whenever he sees anyone, even a woman who's giving them food.

And a man with incremental theory who has been rejected by a few women can walk away whenever sees one. Or reject himself on her behalf, even if that woman might have wanted to meet him. Or he can write off an entire population of women and project his limited past experience onto millions assuming they are all going to be the same. Just like the dog with the woman with food....what he thinks is going to happen isnt necessarily what is actually going to happen, but nothing will change the belief.....the mind was already made up before the interaction even happened.

You see rescue videos for dogs that have been abused and they are naturally scared of the rescuers, they try to get away because they are convinced that they will be attacked again....the dogs might even attack the rescuer. But after they have captured them and took them to the shelter and begin to care for them....the dog starts to trust humans again......it took a change of experience to change the dogs mind. Very similar to entity theory. A man who has been hurt or abused by women may never trust a woman again unless by some bizzare twist of fete he expereinces a new experience. But humans rescue animals.....we dont typically rescue other humans from their own fears. This is where personal responsibility comes in and where incremental theory will pull you out of a hole

And a man with incremental theory who has been turned down for a few job interviews can give up applying for jobs because he makes a mental connection with his past experience and equates it to his projection of the future.

We are similar to dogs and animals, except that we DO have the ability to rationalize our own fears as just mind projections based on past experiences, but not everyone is good at seeing through this.

[El_Caudillo]

But Darrell, Winston is very near to his potential in his field of expertise: A Contrary

The Hollywood film, Little Big Man (1970), offered glimpses into the
fictive life of a Cheyenne contrary, Younger Bear. He could be seen
riding his horse backward, and on another occasion, he took a bath in
the sand and dried off in the river.

[publicduende]

And a man with incremental theory who has been rejected by a few women can walk away whenever sees one. Or reject himself on her behalf, even if that woman might have wanted to meet him. Or he can write off an entire population of women and project his limited past experience onto millions assuming they are all going to be the same. Just like the dog with the woman with food....what he thinks is going to happen isnt necessarily what is actually going to happen, but nothing will change the belief.....the mind was already made up before the interaction even happened.

You see rescue videos for dogs that have been abused and they are naturally scared of the rescuers, they try to get away because they are convinced that they will be attacked again....the dogs might even attack the rescuer. But after they have captured them and took them to the shelter and begin to care for them....the dog starts to trust humans again......it took a change of experience to change the dogs mind. Very similar to entity theory. A man who has been hurt or abused by women may never trust a woman again unless by some bizzare twist of fete he expereinces a new experience. But humans rescue animals.....we dont typically rescue other humans from their own fears. This is where personal responsibility comes in and where incremental theory will pull you out of a hole

And a man with incremental theory who has been turned down for a few job interviews can give up applying for jobs because he makes a mental connection with his past experience and equates it to his projection of the future.

We are similar to dogs and animals, except that we DO have the ability to rationalize our own fears as just mind projections based on past experiences, but not everyone is good at seeing through this.

Exactly my point. Dog wouldn't know if a human stranger is there to kick him or feed him, so - to be on the safe side - he runs away or attacks to defend himself pre-emptively.

A human who gets rejected by women because - well, he's not much of a man, after all - has the power to rationalise about his condition and react. It's that analyse/react pair that might - in fact should - lead him to understand that he needs to improve his worth in the eyes of women, worthy women at least.

Why do you think Winston has it easy in Angeles, Philippines? Because he can have the attention, albeit a fake, money-driven attention, and the sexual validation he needs whenever he needs.

If he, or any man for that matter, were to pursue worthy women, those women's expectations would automatically be higher and - being the rational being they are - they would have to conclude that they just have to take concrete steps to improve themselves. Yet, that would clash against their laziness and desire for an easy life. So better to stick to their current lives and blame society and demons for their lack of quality love and social opportunities.

[Ghost]

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[Moretorque]

This is a silly/obvious question. Much like the weight you can bench press, you can increase you intelligence through training, but not indefinitely, since there is going to be a natural biological limit.

How's that 135 pound press coming along ?.....

[Darrell_Johnston]

Yes he can....an entity theorist would ask "how can i get a job?" Or "how can i get a girl?" An imcremtal theorist will ask "how can i become the type of person that someone would want to employ ? " or "how can i become the type of person that women want to be with?"

The problem is that the mindset of "how can I...?" doesn't matter if the game is rigged. (I.e. the system that Cornfed and I keep telling you about.) For example: if there are 10,000 jobs in a given field, but there are 10 million applicants, how many applicants can get a job in that field? The answer is 10,000. It doesn't matter how much motivation an applicant has. His attitude or positive thinking or gumption is not going to change the odds. When the system in place sends most resumes straight to the bin, posts fake job postings, and won't consider men for employment in order to hire more females, minorities, and immigrants, there is no self-improving your way out of it.

An entity theorist would email a resume to a company and do nothing more. If he even bothers at all. He will insist that its not worth anymore energy because he knows the odds are so low, so why bother?.

An incremental theorist will recognise that this is a very difficult task to achieve and figure out how to get in with the company, can he network with the owners of the company some how? Can he get an introduction? Or can he find out where the staff of the company like to party and rub shoulders and get leads?. Can he come up with a deal or proposal to help that company that the company couldn't refuse?.

And in the end if he tried every possible angle he could think of to make it happen but it still didn't end up going his way, he knows he still tried his best and he will try again elsewhere or he can travel to where there is more work or try a new avenue of career, you have to have plan B's and plan C's anyway. If he cant find money from his passion and has to work at something else he will still continue his passions in his spare time until he figures out a way he can make money from his passion, can he freelance on the side? can he save up from his job to create his own business where he can work in his passion and maybe even employ others? can he network with others if he needs help?.



Some personal examples from my life are.......

I wanted to be a DJ and half the country was a DJ and there are very few good night clubs, no one knew who I was so I couldnt get booked anywhere. I rented out my local bar and invited young DJs from my community and I booked my self to play.

I wanted to play in the biggest Dance music festival in my region but I wasnt well known enough and a big festival can choose from tens of thousands of DJ's, so sending my CV would have been pointless. Instead I emailed them and proposed that I would put a small stage in their festival for free if they allow me to have a free stall there to sell drinks and food, they agreed and I networked with a dutch party promoter to borrow all the equipment, that was great exposure and that spring boarded a 20 year career playing in over 13 countries as well all over my own country.

I managed to get a 7 year residency at another festival because I met the boss through networking accross the country, he didnt have much money and was unexperienced but he wanted to try to make festivals, so I offered him a deal he could refuse, I offered him unlimited free support with planning and ideas, booking artists networking and promotion for the first year and what I wanted in return was to have a residency at his festival for as long as it lasts, this was an offer he couldnt refuse and together we planned a festival that went on to be the countries biggest dance music festival.

An entity theorist would never put all that effort in to get what he wants.


I met an incel guy from London who asked me to help him get laid, he was the worst entity theorist I ever met.....like fully at max on the spectrum....he had no job, no friends, virgin. He had read a few pages in a PUA forum and was walking up to girls trying to get numbers and getting rejected every time.....
I told him that PUA wasnt what he needed, this is a typical example of an entity theorist "trying personal development" and it not working, he failed to realise that he wasnt putting his energy into the real fundamental personal development he needed to tackle first..... he needed to get his working and social life together so he could have money to do what he needs to do and become socially adjusted before any woman will ever want to give him more than a few moments of time, he said there was no point in looking for work because he had applied for 3 jobs and didn't get them, he was so easily convinced by 3 failed attempts that it was never going to happen so not worth pursuing ever again, his entity theory kept him as a hermit in his mums house and i think he will be there for life. And if someone was to encourage him to give up that would be just solidifying his learned helplessness. He probably would have enjoyed the HA message that "its not your fault, its societies"...surprise surprise....he did blame society and not his lack of drive or motivation. Someone like him would take winstons message seriously that he can never make it at home.....but he will never have the money to actually go and travel to see if the experience would pull him out of his hole or not because he has already given up .

"Self improvement" has nothing to do with those. I can improve myself all day - indeed, I spend a lot of time on that stuff. The difference is that I recognize it for what it is. I am doing things for myself, not because I'm under some delusion that "self improvement" will let me hack a shitty system and make it work for me

Thats cool bro, Im not trying to convince you of anything

You wanted to know what I believe in....this is the foundation of it.

[Cornfed]

An incremental theorist will recognise that this is a very difficult task to achieve and figure out how to get in with the company, can he network with the owners of the company some how? Can he get an introduction? Or can he find out where the staff of the company like to party and rub shoulders and get leads?. Can he come up with a deal or proposal to help that company that the company couldn't refuse?.

All interesting questions worth pondering for a few minutes and the likely answer is “no”. Companies tend to have strict rules for hiring based on objective standards beyond the control of applicants, and that is a very good thing in and of itself. In any case it doesn’t pay to beat yourself up and agonise over a particular placement these days, and if there are only so many placements it is mathematically obvious that some people are going to be left holding the bag.

[Darrell_Johnston]

An incremental theorist will recognise that this is a very difficult task to achieve and figure out how to get in with the company, can he network with the owners of the company some how? Can he get an introduction? Or can he find out where the staff of the company like to party and rub shoulders and get leads?. Can he come up with a deal or proposal to help that company that the company couldn't refuse?.

All interesting questions worth pondering for a few minutes and the likely answer is “no”. Companies tend to have strict rules for hiring based on objective standards beyond the control of applicants, and that is a very good thing in and of itself. In any case it doesn’t pay to beat yourself up and agonise over a particular placement these days, and if there are only so many placements it is mathematically obvious that some people are going to be left holding the bag.

Classic text book Entity theory right there.

[Cornfed]

Classic text book Entity theory right there.

Could you say why? It seems like both theories, if taken to extremes, are insane.

[Darrell_Johnston]

Classic text book Entity theory right there.

Could you say why?

Plainly explained in the OP.......

Entity theorists are susceptible to learned helplessness because they may feel that circumstances are outside their control (i.e. there’s nothing that could have been done to make things better), thus they may give up easily. As a result, they may simply avoid situations or activities that they perceive to be challenging

[Darrell_Johnston]

It seems like both theories, if taken to extremes, are insane.

Yes to the extremes it is insane its more beneficial to lean more towards incremental mindset than entity because it yields a higher success rate but its not good to be extreme. An extremist incremental theorist would be incredibly successful but also incredibly narcissistic and self destructive.

A classic example would be Charlie Sheen, worked his ass off, wins in every area of life.....but thinks he is invincible, takes too much coke and has caught HIV from all the f***ing he has done.

An extemeist entity theorist would be the guy from London I mentioned above who applies for 3 jobs and never tries again, given up on socialising because it didnt work for him in school, given up on everything and became a house hermit. The danger he faces is losing his mind altogether, if he stays in solitude he negates his chances of success even more because just like if you dont practice the piano you start to suck at playing the piano, if you dont practice socialising and actively pursuing passion.....you start to suck at them too, if he applies a self inspired "too hard, not going to try" mentality to everything in his life he (which he has done)....he is never going to do anything at all....the longer he sits in no action, proactively avoiding everything....the harder it is going to become for him to be able to ever achieve anything, his lack of practice is going to make him weak and he wont have the skills to be able to pass ANY job interview be accepted in ANY school or make ANY friends or find ANY lovers. The longer he waits, the harder is gets and the harder it gets, the longer he waits.... giving him potential to end up going insane and getting locked up or committing suicide.

[Ghost]

.

[Darrell_Johnston]

An entity theorist would email a resume to a company and do nothing more. If he even bothers at all. He will insist that its not worth anymore energy because he knows the odds are so low, so why bother?.

An incremental theorist will recognise that this is a very difficult task to achieve and figure out how to get in with the company, can he network with the owners of the company some how? Can he get an introduction? Or can he find out where the staff of the company like to party and rub shoulders and get leads?. Can he come up with a deal or proposal to help that company that the company couldn't refuse?.

And in the incremental theorist's case, it wouldn't help him. That is, doing those things wouldn't help him in the current job market. His go-get-'em attitude won't undo cold, hard reality.

He wouldn't know if it would help him or not until he tried.....An IT (Incremental theorist) would try everything he can though, an entity theorist would not. Winning is never guaranteed by doing your best....but it sure increases the odds. But losing is 100% guaranteed if you give up before trying everything you possibly could.

Same for the entity theorist. If the entity theorist didn't put much effort in, but had sufficient connections, or a family member in the field, his chances would be much higher for getting a good job.

But if he is an entity theorist....unless he changes.....he doesn't stand much chance at doing well at that job, or even holding it down. I worked with a guy like that whose dad was best friends with the cub owner so he got the job as entertainments manager.....and he sucked, he kept losing money for the company and his dad had to pay the money they lost to the club to compensate and keep him in a job. No one liked working with him and he eventually got fired.

you cannot self improve your way into success,

Bruce Lee, Arnie, Mike Tyson, Connor McGregor, just a few examples of people who would disagree with you. Their success was 100% attributed to slow INCREMENTAL dedication to improvement of their skill sets.

not your attitude or positive thinking.

I don't know if you have ever worked in sales....I have.....if you haven't, speak to someone who has, or if you have worked in sales you will know what I mean when I say that having a positive mindset increases your sales success and being in a negative state of mind decreases it.

Of if you have known anyone to run a company, they will tell you that if they hire negative staff, the company will do worse than if they employ positive staff.


Besides that.....Implicit theories of intelligence is not about positive attitude or mindset.......its about each individuals belief about their own ability.

And in the end if he tried every possible angle he could think of to make it happen but it still didn't end up going his way, he knows he still tried his best and he will try again elsewhere or he can travel to where there is more work or try a new avenue of career, you have to have plan B's and plan C's anyway. If he cant find money from his passion and has to work at something else he will still continue his passions in his spare time until he figures out a way he can make money from his passion, can he freelance on the side? can he save up from his job to create his own business where he can work in his passion and maybe even employ others? can he network with others if he needs help?.

So in other words, things didn't work out in his own country because the deck is stacked against him, so he needs to go abroad.

Well, thats just one possibility that I mentioned out of several, and you micro focused on that while ignoring all the other possibilities, the possibilities are not just restricted to the ones I mentioned either......there are many more. I do not talk in absolutes and present one way as the only way and ignore everything else. Yes.....travel is a very viable option, if there are more jobs and higher salary else where then moving is a very intelligent thing to do

I wanted to be a DJ and half the country was a DJ and there are very few good night clubs, no one knew who I was so I couldnt get booked anywhere. I rented out my local bar and invited young DJs from my community and I booked my self to play.

I wanted to play in the biggest Dance music festival in my region but I wasnt well known enough and a big festival can choose from tens of thousands of DJ's, so sending my CV would have been pointless. Instead I emailed them and proposed that I would put a small stage in their festival for free if they allow me to have a free stall there to sell drinks and food, they agreed and I networked with a dutch party promoter to borrow all the equipment, that was great exposure and that spring boarded a 20 year career playing in over 13 countries as well all over my own country.

Then there was nothing in cold, hard, objective, reality that prevented you. Had those festival organizers decided that they didn't accept outside soliciting emails, nothing you could have done would've worked.

That is entity theory right there in a nut shell. "They didn't reply to the email, don't bother do anything else, it won't work".

If they didn't reply to my email.....there are other strategies I could have implemented. I could show up to their office and ask to have a meeting with the boss. Go the the festival its self and approach him face to face. I think I might know what you are thinking now and that is....."even if you did manage to nail down a meeting they can still decline your offer". And this is totally true, like I already said earlier....

"He wouldn't know if it would help him or not until he tried.....An IT (Incremental theorist) would try everything he can though, an entity theorist would not. Winning is never guaranteed by doing your best....but it sure increases the odds. But losing is 100% guaranteed if you give up before trying everything you possibly could"

Also, I don't know if we are both discussing looking for employment in something you are passionate about or just getting employed in any job in order to make money. I am personally talking about living life through your passions being the key to happiness and enjoyment of life. And we also have to presume that the person knows that they have the skills required to deliver, and skill are developed through putting in hours and months and years of dedication......thats called.....wait for it.....improvement.

Look at that will smith movie "pursuit of happiness" here you see a text book incremental theorist who is passionate about sales, marketing and numbers, he stands out side the office every day till he gets to introduce himself to the CEO, and no matter what obstacles life throws at him, he keeps working his shitty job but puts all his extra energy into applying himself for the job he wants. That is incremtalism on steroids.


And if push comes to shove and I did try everything I possibly could and I still didn't get the position, I know I did my best and I would still pursue my passion through other outlets. At the very least I had made a new acquaintance and increased possibility of getting booked for the festival in the future. I would continue working a regular job and perfecting my skills to make myself more hirable and promoting myself in as many ways as I can think of, as long as I was getting to live through my passion it wouldnt matter to me if I played in small bars my whole life or if I became the biggest DJ in the world, obviously the latter is the preferred, but nothing would have ever stopped me pursuing my passion.

Funny enough, when I first started, many pf my friends tried to push entity theory on me....."no one is going to like your music", "You really think you can make it" etc.....I wasn't going to let their defeatism stop me, I said " I'm still going to try my best" and I did. And I played to rooms of 30 people for the first year, good job I didn't let my lack of success at the beginning define who I was and give up.

An entity theorist would never put all that effort in to get what he wants.

It seems anyone who puts in all the effort but still fails anyway because of things outside of his control, you will just automatically group into the 'entity theorist' camp, whether or not he even agrees with it.

For the record, everybody is part entity and part incremental. But no, someone who tries everything they possibly can in their power is not applying entity theory to his practice, he is applying incremental, because and entity theorist would not try everything he possibly could, he perceived bar of limitation is set lower than what the actual bar is......and no one knows where the limit is until they have reached it.

Now how about all the non-extreme examples of men who are trying their damndest to make life work but are failing due to objective factors far outside of their control? I'm talking about the men who have applied for hundreds or thousands of jobs but get nothing. I'm talking about the men who just want a foothold in their own countries but can't even get a basic life started, and not for lack of trying.

See everything I said above.

so don't give me these bullshit examples of a man who applied for three jobs and quit. That is not a typical example.

I wasnt specifically giving those examples to YOU. Cornfed brought up how he thought when taken to extreme that its insane, I agreed and gave two extreme cases and outlined how extremism can lead to insanity.

The example of the guy from London was very relevant to this discussion, it shows how that applying entity theory to EVERYTHING in your life leads to zero action, zero results, increases stress, boredom, negativity, anxiety and depletes him of all the necessary skills he needs for life because he is not improving his ability at anything at all and ultimately has no skill or value to offer to the world.

If you apply entity theory to everything in life.....nothing gets done. If you apply incremental theory to everything in life......you are never guaranteed to succeed in every single thing you try, but if you are putting 100% into everything you try and you apply yourself to as many things as possible, you are going to succeed in many, many ways.