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Why are Healthcare costs so expensive in the US?

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Why are Healthcare costs so expensive in the US?

Postby Winston » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:27 am

Is it just because of pure greed?

I remember Hillary Clinton said during the Clinton years that the reasons why Healthcare costs are so high in the US are so complex that it would take volumes of books to explain it, so no one even bothers to try to explain it on TV.

Is that just a copout?

Usually complicated things can be simplified by someone with good communication skills, or at least summed up in a nutshell or narrowed down in some way.
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Postby Hero » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:23 pm

Imagine a country where employers offered food insurance. That is, whenever you went to the grocery store, you would only have to pay 20% of your bill, and your insurance would pay the other 80%. Well, you wouldn't buy cheap stuff like hamburgers and hot dogs; instead you'd buy things like lobster and caviar. Of course, this would make it more profitable for the supermarket to sell only expensive items, and the inexpensive food would get pushed right off the shelf. As food costs went up, so would the price of food insurance.

And that is exactly what has happened to health care in the U.S. today.
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Postby adam917 » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:39 pm

Hero wrote:Imagine a country where employers offered food insurance. That is, whenever you went to the grocery store, you would only have to pay 20% of your bill, and your insurance would pay the other 80%. Well, you wouldn't buy cheap stuff like hamburgers and hot dogs; instead you'd buy things like lobster and caviar. Of course, this would make it more profitable for the supermarket to sell only expensive items, and the inexpensive food would get pushed right off the shelf. As food costs went up, so would the price of food insurance.

And that is exactly what has happened to health care in the U.S. today.

Can one compare to other 1st-world countries that do have some form of socialised health-care or does that just not work? Basically what I wonder about is if Canada & the UK can do it, why can't the US?
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Postby ladislav » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:45 am

The US is the only 1st world country where there is no national health insurance. They tell people it is Communist to have it. But Japan is not Communist and it has it and all other very Capitalist countries have it. Something that most Americans do not know. The thing is there is a cartel ( or a chain of them, all feeding upon each other) and it is very powerful. It makes big money. A national health insurance will ruin the cartel. Bad food- failed health- doctors to "help" you- pharmaceutical companies- people fleeced. It is like the Inquisition- a big establishment to kill and milk people. It employs huge numbers of people who capitalize on the unhealthy lifestyle of ordinary Americans. And they perennially invent newer methods to raise costs to make even more money. Add to it another very big factor- US does not have national education, either. To become a doctor is costly. Another cartel- student loan/banks and the medical education industry is involved. These also perennially raise costs to make even more money ( out of greed and to keep up with inflation and rising real estate prices). There is yet another cartel- hungry ambulance chasing lawyers who try and make millions out of malpractice suits- another big money makers. And hence, there are insurance companies who charge starry rates to 'protect' doctors from malpractice. The chain of these cartels is forever expanding and raising costs to make sure they keep getting richer and richer. There are also lawmakers that have created a system whereby you need to have a prescription to get simple antibiotics and Viagra. In many countries all these are sold over the counter and guess what, you do not need a doctor in many cases- you just go to a pharmacy and talk to the pharmacist- "Hey, I have this and that problem!"- and he just gives you the medicine. In the US he would be sued for giving medical advice without a license. In other countries- no.
So, this is the gist of the matter. Stay healthy, eat good foods and exercise. Do not feed the cartel.
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Postby RalphTheGnome » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:52 am

Paranoid much? Stop fanning the whole conspiracy theory and try backing things up with facts ladislav.

Health care in USA is not so different than anywhere else in the world. The major difference being that other countries "nationalize" it, taking the money out from taxes before you even get it, and USA's allows you to go through independent companies to choose the coverage which you need/desire the most.

The quality in USA, for hospital care, has been MUCH better than anywhere I've seen socialized. You are still a number to the health care system, but you are a positive $ not a negative $. In that I mean, when dealing with socialized medical care/insurance, the longer they care for you, the more it costs THEM, whereas, in USA, they GET MORE. Both of these have their vices. In Canada, for instance, people were backed up so long on waiting lists for MRI/CAT scans that they were crossing the boarder to USA for them, and in some instances went to VETERINARIANS to use the machines set aside for animal treatment. Mothers in Sweden were sent home with their child the same day of birth. In USA, you don't see this happening. What you do see is people earning low income and not wanting to pay for insurance, then getting rejected because they spent that money on something else. I have an inexpensive plan that covers me only if the cost exceeds a specified amount... This lowers my cost of insurance to be ~2% of my yearly income, yet if I go in for a "cough", I'll pay the full amount of the cost.

These comparisons between USA and other individual countries are so absurd. I've read countless threads by the OP with various comparisons and people's responses. They like to say Americans are uneducated... well... The United States of America is comprised of 50 separate states/commonwealths each with their own laws and regulations, while the Federal government has a non-invasive regulation over all of them. This is much like the established EU in Europe. You take a country like Canada or the UK. Who here knows the populations there? Canada is 33,212,696 (approx), and the UK is 60,943,912 (approx). USA's population is approx 304,059,724. New York City is approx 8,300,000 in ONE CITY. That is roughly 24% of Canada's TOTAL population and 13% of the UK's TOTAL population. Both of which are having conflicts with their people over the socialized nature of their countries.

Japan is much closer at 127,288,416 (nearly 42% of the U.S.'s population) but their quality of living is much less than that in any of the aforementioned countries.

I really wish that places like this would just stop with all of the country bashing (not just vs U.S.A.) without putting in ALL of the footwork to make an educated statement. There are stupid people in all countries, there are people that can't tell you countries/locations outside of their continental area, there are fat people EVERYWHERE, there are ugly people EVERYWHERE... violent crimes... you name it, and if you start breaking things down population-wise all of these "statistics" are shown to be made purely to support someone's argument and are falsely portraying different countries.
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Postby adam917 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:21 am

RalphTheGnome wrote:Paranoid much? Stop fanning the whole conspiracy theory and try backing things up with facts ladislav.

Health care in USA is not so different than anywhere else in the world. The major difference being that other countries "nationalize" it, taking the money out from taxes before you even get it, and USA's allows you to go through independent companies to choose the coverage which you need/desire the most.

The quality in USA, for hospital care, has been MUCH better than anywhere I've seen socialized. You are still a number to the health care system, but you are a positive $ not a negative $. In that I mean, when dealing with socialized medical care/insurance, the longer they care for you, the more it costs THEM, whereas, in USA, they GET MORE. Both of these have their vices. In Canada, for instance, people were backed up so long on waiting lists for MRI/CAT scans that they were crossing the boarder to USA for them, and in some instances went to VETERINARIANS to use the machines set aside for animal treatment. Mothers in Sweden were sent home with their child the same day of birth. In USA, you don't see this happening. What you do see is people earning low income and not wanting to pay for insurance, then getting rejected because they spent that money on something else. I have an inexpensive plan that covers me only if the cost exceeds a specified amount... This lowers my cost of insurance to be ~2% of my yearly income, yet if I go in for a "cough", I'll pay the full amount of the cost.

These comparisons between USA and other individual countries are so absurd. I've read countless threads by the OP with various comparisons and people's responses. They like to say Americans are uneducated... well... The United States of America is comprised of 50 separate states/commonwealths each with their own laws and regulations, while the Federal government has a non-invasive regulation over all of them. This is much like the established EU in Europe. You take a country like Canada or the UK. Who here knows the populations there? Canada is 33,212,696 (approx), and the UK is 60,943,912 (approx). USA's population is approx 304,059,724. New York City is approx 8,300,000 in ONE CITY. That is roughly 24% of Canada's TOTAL population and 13% of the UK's TOTAL population. Both of which are having conflicts with their people over the socialized nature of their countries.

Japan is much closer at 127,288,416 (nearly 42% of the U.S.'s population) but their quality of living is much less than that in any of the aforementioned countries.

I really wish that places like this would just stop with all of the country bashing (not just vs U.S.A.) without putting in ALL of the footwork to make an educated statement. There are stupid people in all countries, there are people that can't tell you countries/locations outside of their continental area, there are fat people EVERYWHERE, there are ugly people EVERYWHERE... violent crimes... you name it, and if you start breaking things down population-wise all of these "statistics" are shown to be made purely to support someone's argument and are falsely portraying different countries.

Everything was great until the last paragraph. The reason I disagree with it is because even if you compare per capita or per million people, etc., the US still winds up coming last in enough categories compared to other 1st-world countries. Look at the education system in the US below the university level for example. The average 18-year-old in the US usually needs two extra years at a community college before they can attend university without having academic problems whereas the same doesn't need to be said about other industrialised countries. For a country as rich as we are, we are way behind in maths for instance. I believe part of the problem in the US' education system is that everyone gets treated too much alike, resulting in some students that could handle harder classes not taking them and others who need more help without the access to it. Someone on this board said that in Germany, students go to different schools from roughly age 10 or 11 that cater to the individual skill-set of that student. This makes a lot of sense as the students are all stuck in schools where they will be others that learn at the same rate.

The US is the richest nation on Earth. We could be doing better but we aren't. Perhaps the youth culture that awards and praises athletes is part of the problem.
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Postby RalphTheGnome » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:47 am

adam917 wrote:Everything was great until the last paragraph. The reason I disagree with it is because even if you compare per capita or per million people, etc., the US still winds up coming last in enough categories compared to other 1st-world countries. Look at the education system in the US below the university level for example. The average 18-year-old in the US usually needs two extra years at a community college before they can attend university without having academic problems whereas the same doesn't need to be said about other industrialised countries. For a country as rich as we are, we are way behind in maths for instance. I believe part of the problem in the US' education system is that everyone gets treated too much alike, resulting in some students that could handle harder classes not taking them and others who need more help without the access to it. Someone on this board said that in Germany, students go to different schools from roughly age 10 or 11 that cater to the individual skill-set of that student. This makes a lot of sense as the students are all stuck in schools where they will be others that learn at the same rate.

The US is the richest nation on Earth. We could be doing better but we aren't. Perhaps the youth culture that awards and praises athletes is part of the problem.

Once again you are lumping 50 educational systems into one and comparing them singularly to each other country. The U.S. educational systems are state based and vary VASTLY amongst states, as does the educational standards across the countries of Europe and Asia. The idea that U.S. students usually need 2 years of community college is a fallacy. There are 100's of 1000's of successful college/university students that graduate each year who did not require two extra years in a community college.

You can believe what you want about the system, but that is merely a belief and thus not a grounded argument. Some people work hard and overcome, some people look for someone to blame for their hardships and hold their hand out. That is the same thing with medical insurance, unemployment, and any other "problem" U.S.A. has in comparison to other countries. This country was based on the right to PURSUE happiness. That means putting in the work, the time, taking the sacrifices like our ancestors did. Not crying about not getting a bag of goodies and blaming the government for our shortcomings... much like why the "immigrants" of this country came here. They wanted a new life, where they would get rewarded for their hard work and dedication.
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Postby ladislav » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:03 am

Can you show me affordable US healthcare providers? That do not include sneaky deductables at that? You are saying that in other countries they charge taxes but in the US you simply pay out of your own pocket. But did you check their taxes and the medical coverage costs in the US? In New Zealand, taxes are some 24-26%. And they have a basic bread and potato coverage. Not so bad at that. Now, are you going to tell me that healthcare is 2% of your income? You must be making $10,000 a month.
Not every person needs a fancy scan or something esoteric. Basic things need to be affordable- when you have a strained ancle, a bloody hemorrhoid,when you have a car accident, things like that.
There should be national coverage and private coverage side by side and people should be able to choose. And if it is to be private only, why not make it some $60 a month all inclusive?
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Postby RalphTheGnome » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:12 am

I don't mean to come off abrasive, though possibly I am. We each have our own opinions and there is no use to argue over an opinion. I compare facts, written and observed.

My opinion on the matter is that people everywhere are getting mislead in the news, lied to by all politicians, and have lost their true values which founded all of our countries... and those who haven't fallen in such a way are being overrun and overtaxed by those who have. It isn't one country, it is all countries on different levels.

The fact of the matter is that, a majority of people everywhere do live sheltered in their own bubbles with only the news reports as a window to the outside world, The U.S. news being some of the most skewed. After visiting 13 countries, I was judged and stereotyped at every single place before I even had a chance to "know" anyone. People asked why I didn't wear a baseball cap, why I didn't listen to rap, why I didn't wear baggy clothes, did I own a gun, did I ever get robbed, etc etc etc... And when I responded about the political climate of their country on the world stage, most of them couldn't even come up with a decent reply besides a 20 second new ticker message. I am not the "average" American, but I am also not some super above average guru either. What it boils down to is that we are all fed loads of useless #$%^ from YouTube, Fake TV shows, and poor news reporting.. which leads to misjudging people and countries, often to promote someone's agenda. One good example was the "Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide" movement which was a prank to fool people through selective wording, into joining a fake petition to ban the use of water. Politicians and extremist groups do the same thing to stir up these stereotypes and scares in the media.

I think one of the more recent ones that grabbed my interest was Fox New's report that Obama said U.S.A. is not a Christian nation, but a Muslim nation. So I sat through an hour of BS news reporting to get to the point where they hacked up two totally difference instances of Obama speaking, cut out ONLY the 3-4 words needed, and clipped them together with a commentary to make it appear that this was the statement spoken.

If you want to know something for real, you have separate the facts from the BS, then investigate the facts to their fullest... not the statistics or clips provided to you.

/Ralph ;)
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Postby RalphTheGnome » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:24 am

ladislav wrote:Can you show me affordable US healthcare providers? That do not include sneaky deductables at that? You are saying that in other countries they charge taxes but in the US you simply pay out of your own pocket. But did you check their taxes and the medical coverage costs in the US? In New Zealand, taxes are some 24-26%. And they have a basic bread and potato coverage. Not so bad at that. Now, are you going to tell me that healthcare is 2% of your income? You must be making $10,000 a month.
Not every person needs a fancy scan or something esoteric. Basic things need to be affordable- when you have a strained ancle, a bloody hemorrhoid,when you have a car accident, things like that.
There should be national coverage and private coverage side by side and people should be able to choose. And if it is to be private only, why not make it some $60 a month all inclusive?


If there is national coverage and private coverage, do those who opt for private get to opt out of national? Do we then not have to pay the taxes? Have you ever worked in government? You really don't know how bad things get when the government starts to say what you can or can't do, what you will or will not do. The government's solution is to throw more money at the hole until it fills up. A private business finds better ways to get across the hole to the other side. (Oh yeah. I do own a $25.00 Gov't issue Swingline stapler, est value at a retail store: $6.99)
Do you really want more pork belly legislation? Do you want your medical equipment, training, and medicines supplied by the lowest bidder? There are reasons why private practicians are so desired throughout the world...

No, I don't make $10,000 a month. I simply chose a plan such that I would pay out of pocket for situations <$5,000 in cost. Why? I haven't been to a hospital besides physicals and required check-ups in over 10 years. I don't feel that I should pay out of my pocket for people who rush to the hospital for every ache and pain and bloody nose. That is what happens when you start socializing medical care. Sweden is slowly moving away from their socialized medicine.

I do agree that there should be a balance of the two, and that is what medicare was supposed to help out with.
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Postby momopi » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:09 pm

The US is a Federal system where the Federal, State, and Local govrnments provide various health care services and subsidies. There is no "universal" health care system because each State makes its own decisions on the matter. Overall, the "government" is actually the largest healthcare provider in the US. Approx. 15%-16% of the population is uninsured.

An example of State mandated health care:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachuse ... rm_Statute

Within 2 years of enactment, the estimated % of residents without healthcare in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts dropped to 2.6%.

Every State in the Union has the right and freedom to enact similar mandatory healthcare coverage, should its residents vote (and pay) for it.
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Postby Winston » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:20 pm

Hero wrote:Imagine a country where employers offered food insurance. That is, whenever you went to the grocery store, you would only have to pay 20% of your bill, and your insurance would pay the other 80%. Well, you wouldn't buy cheap stuff like hamburgers and hot dogs; instead you'd buy things like lobster and caviar. Of course, this would make it more profitable for the supermarket to sell only expensive items, and the inexpensive food would get pushed right off the shelf. As food costs went up, so would the price of food insurance.

And that is exactly what has happened to health care in the U.S. today.


How so? Most of the healthcare plans in the US are private, not subsidized. Only the low income in SOME states get government sponsored health insurance. Washington offered that and I was on it for a while too. I only paid $10 per month for my health insurance there. But most people can't get that right?
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Postby Winston » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:29 pm

RalphTheGnome wrote:Paranoid much? Stop fanning the whole conspiracy theory and try backing things up with facts ladislav.

Health care in USA is not so different than anywhere else in the world. The major difference being that other countries "nationalize" it, taking the money out from taxes before you even get it, and USA's allows you to go through independent companies to choose the coverage which you need/desire the most.

The quality in USA, for hospital care, has been MUCH better than anywhere I've seen socialized. You are still a number to the health care system, but you are a positive $ not a negative $. In that I mean, when dealing with socialized medical care/insurance, the longer they care for you, the more it costs THEM, whereas, in USA, they GET MORE. Both of these have their vices. In Canada, for instance, people were backed up so long on waiting lists for MRI/CAT scans that they were crossing the boarder to USA for them, and in some instances went to VETERINARIANS to use the machines set aside for animal treatment. Mothers in Sweden were sent home with their child the same day of birth. In USA, you don't see this happening. What you do see is people earning low income and not wanting to pay for insurance, then getting rejected because they spent that money on something else. I have an inexpensive plan that covers me only if the cost exceeds a specified amount... This lowers my cost of insurance to be ~2% of my yearly income, yet if I go in for a "cough", I'll pay the full amount of the cost.

These comparisons between USA and other individual countries are so absurd. I've read countless threads by the OP with various comparisons and people's responses. They like to say Americans are uneducated... well... The United States of America is comprised of 50 separate states/commonwealths each with their own laws and regulations, while the Federal government has a non-invasive regulation over all of them. This is much like the established EU in Europe. You take a country like Canada or the UK. Who here knows the populations there? Canada is 33,212,696 (approx), and the UK is 60,943,912 (approx). USA's population is approx 304,059,724. New York City is approx 8,300,000 in ONE CITY. That is roughly 24% of Canada's TOTAL population and 13% of the UK's TOTAL population. Both of which are having conflicts with their people over the socialized nature of their countries.

Japan is much closer at 127,288,416 (nearly 42% of the U.S.'s population) but their quality of living is much less than that in any of the aforementioned countries.

I really wish that places like this would just stop with all of the country bashing (not just vs U.S.A.) without putting in ALL of the footwork to make an educated statement. There are stupid people in all countries, there are people that can't tell you countries/locations outside of their continental area, there are fat people EVERYWHERE, there are ugly people EVERYWHERE... violent crimes... you name it, and if you start breaking things down population-wise all of these "statistics" are shown to be made purely to support someone's argument and are falsely portraying different countries.


You sound too politically correct. Yeah there are all types of people everywhere. But are you claiming that the percentages and patterns are all equal? If not, what is wrong with pointing them out? Culture matters, as well as environment and people's character. DIFFERENCES EXIST, BIG TIME. Are you trying to deny that?

I could point out countless examples that you could verify in person. And I have. What is your argument against it?

It's well known that the US has the highest rates of mental illness in the industrialized world. Why do you think that's so, if it's such a great country? Quality of life has gone down even though the US is a rich country. Why is that?

The US has advantages yeah, but mental health isn't one of them. Neither is social life or dating women.

The public schools do seem to be about indoctrination rather than educating kids. They force you to memorize many useless facts for tests, rather than teach you how to think and be skeptical, even of the government. Like Jordan Maxwell said, "The government is getting exactly what it wants. Logic will tell you that if they didn't want what they were getting, they would change something. But they don't, so they must be getting exactly what they want (from the school system)."
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Postby Enishi » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:21 pm

Just found this one a blog...

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/arch ... -Fool.html


Health care "reform" is the current hot-button, with the Obama administration now talking about a "public" health-insurance system to "keep the system honest."

Uh huh.

Look folks, you want to know why we have the health cost problems we have? I'll lay it out for you - in a way you can't refute or argue with:

1. There are no published prices. In no other line of work is it legal to do this. Nowhere. You can't sell someone a hot dog and tell them after they eat it what it just cost them. You can't hire a lawyer and have him tell you "I'll tell you what this will cost when we're done." You can't hire an electrician and have him tell you "I'll make up a bill when I'm done." In every line of work except health care, this is illegal. There are even laws for "major" consumer work (e.g. contracting, auto repair, etc) where they must give you a binding written estimate before beginning work!
2. Robinson-Patman makes it illegal to discriminate against like kind purchasers of goods in pricing decisions when the effect of doing so is to lessen competition. While it does not apply to services, it darn well should. Whether you are paying privately, you have private insurance or you're a Medicare patient if you need to have a breast reconstructed due to cancer the complexity of the procedure does not change. Yet it is a fact that the privately-billed amounts for uninsured ("rack rate") patients are often ten times or more that billed to insurers or Medicare. Try charging a cash purchaser 10x more for a TV than someone who finances that TV on your in-house credit facility and you would be shut down and thrown in jail.

#1 and #2 exist because of explicit efforts by the "health care" industry to exempt themselves from the laws that every other merchant of every other good and service in the United States must adhere to.

To put this bluntly the medical industry has intentionally put forward a system by which it can screw you with impunity, obtaining exemptions from the laws that cover every other area of commerce, thereby effectively forcing you to buy overpriced services you do not want to purchase lest an unexpected life event literally wipe you out.

This is an extortion racket and absolutely none of the proposals being put forward have done a thing to address any of it.

If we want to fix the health care pricing problem we can do so. It isn't very difficult. Here's the prescription:

1. All health care providers must publish a price list for the procedures and services they offer and the patient must be presented, when possible, with that information before services are performed or goods (e.g. medication) supplied, consenting to the charge in each case. All normal anti-trust provisions with regards to collusion between providers apply. If a physician doesn't like "flat-rate" billing they're free to publish a per-hour fee much like an attorney.
2. No physician or group may discriminate based on the form of any external payment. If they want to internally finance procedure(s), that's fine - they can charge interest or discount for that, or whatever. But for anyone who pays via any other means (including the government) money is money - the price may not change based on the source of payment.
3. No event caused by your presence in a medical facility or the actions of an employee there can come with cost to you. It is absolutely common for people to be billed for treatment of MRSA infections acquired in the hospital! That is equivalent to a mechanic that through incompetence or even malice cuts a wiring harness in your car while it is on the rack having the oil changed and then tries to charge you to fix what he broke!

Now clearly #1 doesn't work so well when you're unconscious due to a heart attack or just wrecking your car. But setting your broken leg or performing a cardiac procedure is something that's done for people who aren't incapacitated too, so guess what - the price is already published and thus the charge known.

This prevents the common practice of hospitals gouging private payers, it exposes prices and brings competition to pricing, and allows the free market to work. It ends the preference for "insurance" on routine procedures.

Next up, if you want to sell "insurance" in a market you must sell it to all persons in that market, defined as an area of at least one US State. You may discriminate in your pricing only based on age and gender - nothing else. If you sell that "insurance" product to any person you must sell to all persons within that state at the same price, and you must publish all your plans and offering prices.

"Insurance" products that are not true insurance products may not discriminate on reimbursement dependent on where the service is performed. The practice of requiring "in network" doctors or even hospitals lest you get "rejected" must end. In addition pre-qualification for any bona-fide non-elective procedure must be absolutely barred as a matter of law.

Finally, all providers of "insurance" must sell a true insurance product. Common HMO/PPO plans are not insurance - they are pre-paid medical care. Insurance is the purchase of a contract to cover damage caused by an unexpected event. Everyone needs health care of some form. Those who want to sell "pre-paid health plans" may do so, but they must also offer true insurance (e.g. covering ONLY hospitalization and related events, etc.)

These changes instantly destroy the connection between health "insurance" and employment. If you leave your job you have the absolute right to keep your health plan by continuing to pay for it. If you don't like your health plan or move out of the state you can buy any plan offered to anyone in your state, at your choice, for the same price they pay.

All mandates to provide specific services and products under "insurance" are federally preempted. Women should be able to choose a health plan that does not include abortion (and/or pre-natal!) services, for example, if they would never use either. Some women (e.g. those who have chosen to have a tubal ligation!) can't use these services, yet they often wind up paying for them in their premiums. Men should be able to choose a plan that does not cover things like Viagra - or, if they choose, perhaps they do want "ED" coverage.

If the health lobby won't cut out the nonsense and work for this sort of change to the system then I am forced to advocate for full nationalization of the entire health system, effectively placing everyone under Medicare. This will lead to forced rationing due to cost but that's happening already, and such a forced system will put a stop to the discriminatory practices of insurers, physicians, hospitals and others in the medical field who commonly bill private parties ten times what health "insurance" plans or Medicare pay for the very same procedure, while playing "let's deny coverage any time we think we can get away with it."

It is my opinion that we should be treating those in the health-insurance lobby, including hospitals, physicians and health-insurance providers, as co-conspirators in a racketeering scheme that effectively trades on the fear of disease and imminent bankruptcy to bamboozle and screw the population, while waving around their "hippocratic oath" - something better described as the "hypocritic oath."
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Postby Winston » Fri May 03, 2013 9:16 am

RalphTheGnome wrote:Paranoid much? Stop fanning the whole conspiracy theory and try backing things up with facts ladislav.

Health care in USA is not so different than anywhere else in the world. The major difference being that other countries "nationalize" it, taking the money out from taxes before you even get it, and USA's allows you to go through independent companies to choose the coverage which you need/desire the most.

The quality in USA, for hospital care, has been MUCH better than anywhere I've seen socialized. You are still a number to the health care system, but you are a positive $ not a negative $. In that I mean, when dealing with socialized medical care/insurance, the longer they care for you, the more it costs THEM, whereas, in USA, they GET MORE. Both of these have their vices. In Canada, for instance, people were backed up so long on waiting lists for MRI/CAT scans that they were crossing the boarder to USA for them, and in some instances went to VETERINARIANS to use the machines set aside for animal treatment. Mothers in Sweden were sent home with their child the same day of birth. In USA, you don't see this happening. What you do see is people earning low income and not wanting to pay for insurance, then getting rejected because they spent that money on something else. I have an inexpensive plan that covers me only if the cost exceeds a specified amount... This lowers my cost of insurance to be ~2% of my yearly income, yet if I go in for a "cough", I'll pay the full amount of the cost.

These comparisons between USA and other individual countries are so absurd. I've read countless threads by the OP with various comparisons and people's responses. They like to say Americans are uneducated... well... The United States of America is comprised of 50 separate states/commonwealths each with their own laws and regulations, while the Federal government has a non-invasive regulation over all of them. This is much like the established EU in Europe. You take a country like Canada or the UK. Who here knows the populations there? Canada is 33,212,696 (approx), and the UK is 60,943,912 (approx). USA's population is approx 304,059,724. New York City is approx 8,300,000 in ONE CITY. That is roughly 24% of Canada's TOTAL population and 13% of the UK's TOTAL population. Both of which are having conflicts with their people over the socialized nature of their countries.

Japan is much closer at 127,288,416 (nearly 42% of the U.S.'s population) but their quality of living is much less than that in any of the aforementioned countries.

I really wish that places like this would just stop with all of the country bashing (not just vs U.S.A.) without putting in ALL of the footwork to make an educated statement. There are stupid people in all countries, there are people that can't tell you countries/locations outside of their continental area, there are fat people EVERYWHERE, there are ugly people EVERYWHERE... violent crimes... you name it, and if you start breaking things down population-wise all of these "statistics" are shown to be made purely to support someone's argument and are falsely portraying different countries.


Ralph,
You are the one brainwashed by the news. Canadians in real life do not regret their healthcare system. They prefer it any day over that of the US. That should tell you something: Canadian healthcare is BETTER. No one in Canada has to go bankrupt from medical bills, unlike the US, which is how it should be. A Canadian will tell you that as long as everyone is covered, they are ok with it. They do not have to wait in overly long lines. That's US corporate propaganda and lies. You are gullible to fall for it.

Regarding taxes, they are very low in Taiwan, much lower than in the US. Yet they provide national healthcare at low premiums. How do you explain that? You can't because it doesn't fit into your view. I have national healthcare in Taiwan, even though I don't work there or pay any taxes. How do you explain that?

Also, my aunt who has diabetes has to pay $900 a month in the US for health insurance in California. How do you justify that? How come in any other country, she wouldn't have to pay a premium like that? It's outrageous and you know it. So stop whitewashing and spinning this issue to the US's favor. This is a no win situation for you and you know it.

You sound like a shill or redneck with a very narrow view of the world, brainwashed by corporate capitalists, patriotism and nationalism, instead of going out there and talking to real people in other countries.

Check out Michael Moore's film "Sicko", where he compares healthcare in the US to other countries. You should watch it. It's very eye opening and shocking and blood boiling. He interviews real people in the US and abroad, unlike you.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdEn6_RTXg4[/youtube]
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