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Fragmentation vs Wholeness: Why ur lonely & insecure in USA

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Postby momopi » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:03 pm

Winston wrote:Of course but you're missing the point. This isn't about geographic fragmentation. It's about PSYCHOLOGICAL fragmentation. In Russia you can find small towns in Siberia that are "isolated" geographically. But when you are in them, do you feel insecure about yourself, all alone and disconnected? Hell no! Why do you think that is?


What you were missing was probably the "人情味" in Taiwanese sense. Ask your father to explain it to you.

If you believe in the theory of genetic memory, it's possible that people with ancestors from different areas would have different inherent tendencies, other than learned behavior. Consider, the Philippines is quite close to southern Taiwan.
Last edited by momopi on Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fragmentation vs Wholeness: What we r engineered not to

Postby globetrotter » Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:42 pm

Winston wrote:What do you mean "too many people, too few space"? Most land in the US is uninhabited. Only a few small percentage of land is inhabited. Look at a map of the US and you will see what I mean. I think you are referring to big cities.

There is enough money and food to go around. It's just that the top elite hoard it all or spend it in places you don't know about. There's enough food for the whole world, just no way to distribute it all and no profit incentive.

Is the genetically modified food a conspiracy? I thought that the preservatives in US food were to preserve the shelf life of it. Isn't that why most food contains processed white flour? And isn't MSG's purpose to make food taste better?

If so, why don't other countries have the same chemicals in their foods? Is it part of a depopulation agenda or are the chemicals there for commercial reasons?

I also notice that my body is more tense and my temper flares up in the US, esp in California. I wasn't sure if it was the food or the vibes though. But I'm sure it all contributes.


"I thought that the preservatives in US food were to preserve the shelf life of it. Isn't that why most food contains processed white flour? And isn't MSG's purpose to make food taste better?"

And you BELIEVE them when they tell you this? The simultaneous rise of US obesity and genetically modified food and artificial sweeteners is no accident. These substances are messing up our bodies. Other countries don't mess with their food like the USA - their meat is more flavorful, tastes better, is more filling, and one does not want to eat as much. Other countries don't have our "improved and better" food supply and they live better, longer lives. China, Japan and Europe for starters. The food in Mexico is much better than the food in the USA.

The GMO is made in the US in the name of progress and corporate profits and other nations either cannot afford it or don't want to do it or don't have the same infrastructure to use, say, genetically modified seed from Monsanto that cannot be stored for next harvest. US food tastes wrong, synthetic, like it was designed by a committee of Computer Engineers. Each time I return I notice it.

There is not enough space in the US because most people do indeed live in large urban areas. On paper California has lots of space - In reality Californians are overly aggressive hustlers who have dubious business ethics and are working themselves to death to pay for their $675,000 houses and massive mortgages, credit card bills, $40,000 SUV's on a $30k salary, and the $8,000 custom chrome rims. On paper and in myth California is a mellow hippie mecca. In reality it is the most competitive place in the US with the possible exception of Lower Manhattan.

Driving on the freeways of Socal alone is enough to stress any normal person.

Most people in the USA are working themselves to death to try and have the lifestyle they want. They are in debt, tired, stressed out and overweight. There is not enough money for what they want, not enough time, not enough work, and they are competing against 335 million others to get the American Dream.
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Postby Winston » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:42 pm

Some of you are missing the point. I'm not just talking about outer fragmentation with others, but INNER as well. But then again, most western males are not used to dealing with the "inner world" nor are they attuned to it well. They understand economics and power better.

Anyhow, since some of you brought up the "collectivism" comparison and the "geographic spacing" factor, which both miss the point, I've added these paragraphs to the essay to help clarify my point and address these.

Now let me clarify some things. I am NOT advocating collectivism here, or conformity without independent thought. Far from it. Neither extremes, selfish disconnected individualism where no one cares about anyone else or conformity to the collective without free thought, are ideal. Instead, why not have a healthy balance? In Europe for example, people believe in connectedness and seek having interdependent relationships with others, yet at the same time they pride themselves in their free thinking intellect and knowledge/understanding of other cultures. (See Jeremy Rifkin’s The European Dream for more about this) They’ve achieved a healthy balance between the two, and that’s what I advocate.

Also, when I speak of “disconnectednessâ€￾ I am not referring to geographic spacing between people or isolation in remote areas. No, I am speaking of something far deeper that has to do with a psychological attitude. If merely crowding people together created connectedness, then New York and Los Angeles would be the most wholesome and connected cities in America. Are they? I don’t think so. Or take a remote Russian village in Siberia. Though geographically isolated, one does not feel insecure, lonely and disconnected from others there. Life may be boring as hell, yeah, but people do not suffer from loneliness or sink into depression and insanity when confronted by problems. Furthermore, as mentioned before, you can feel all alone in America even around your friends or in crowded places, but in other countries with connectedness, you can be physically alone yet not really feel alone. Why do you think that is? Ponder it and you’ll see the real nature of what I’m talking about here, and that it’s not about geographic spacing between people.


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Postby Winston » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:02 pm

momopi wrote:
Winston wrote:Of course but you're missing the point. This isn't about geographic fragmentation. It's about PSYCHOLOGICAL fragmentation. In Russia you can find small towns in Siberia that are "isolated" geographically. But when you are in them, do you feel insecure about yourself, all alone and disconnected? Hell no! Why do you think that is?


What you were missing was probably the "人情味" in Taiwanese sense. Ask your father to explain it to you.

If you believe in the theory of genetic memory, it's possible that people with ancestors from different areas would have different inherent tendencies, other than learned behavior. Consider, the Philippines is quite close to southern Taiwan.


Instead of asking my dad, why don't you just explain it to me, so others here can understand it too as well? Why overcomplicate things?

Yeah I believe in genetic memory. How else can you explain how a cat, when born, automatically becomes a trained expert at catching mice, even though it has no training? lol

But how is this relevant to the topic? Are you saying that people like me have different inherent tendencies and that's why we feel "weaker" or don't fit into America?
Last edited by Winston on Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby momopi » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:24 pm

Hey I live in Southern CA! :D

Milled rice and grains are popular because they have longer shelf life. When you remove the husk, bran, and germ from rice, "white rice" can be stored for 15+ years under proper conditions. However, the process of milling rice removes nutrients, which is why they go back and add the enrichment process. This is a problem with Asians because Asians tend to wash rice before cooking it, and washing removes a lot of the enrichment powder. That's like removing the carrot skin before juicing it.

Brown rice ("whole grain") contains unsaturated oils susceptible to oxidation, and therefore only has 6 month shelf life. It remains edible for up to 18 months but won't taste good at that point.

The health benefits of whole grains and whole wheat is already ingrained (pun?) in our culture. Wonder bread closed their operations in Southern CA and shut down 4 bakeries because of declining sales. The consumers here want whole wheat and other premium breads. Times change and those who fail to keep up are rendered obsolete.

The issue with US grocery business is market dominance by billion-dollar chains, in which the source and freshness of your food is dependent on their x-tier distribution system. Needless to say, there's a tendency to favor shelf-life, though not as long as some would think. For example some people think Twinkies is the ultimate unhealthy snack with so much preservatives that it lasts for years, but in reality its shelf life is less than 4 weeks.

Those who live in Southern CA has the benefit of having many farmer's market and organic markets in the area. Unfortunately the same doesn't apply to everyone else in the country. But if you're into "raw foods" it's important to buy stuff that isn't covered in pesticides.


On GM foods, I'll make 2 distinctions. The first is selective breeding, which has been used by humans for probably 10,000 years. Our ancestors cherry-picked plants with desirable characteristics (drought resistance, flavor, yield, etc) and domesticated them. Sometimes plants are cross-bred to produce hybrids. This was done for thousands of years before modern science.

The second, is technologies like terminator seeds, which prevents seed germination. This has moral and ethical implications because farmers typically keep xx% of their crop yield for next plating, and terminator seeds that cause the 2nd generation seeds to be sterile, thus you make the farmer go back and buy seeds from you every planting season. It's great for business, but Jesus probably wouldn't approve.

On MSG, it's a Japanese product to enhance "Umami" (savory). In the West we identify basic tastes as Bitter, Salty, Sour, and Sweet. The Japanese added Umami to the list and it confirms to their cultural cuisine ideals. It's like the French use sauces very heavily in their food, and they identify 4 or 5 sauces as the basis or "mother" of all sauces used according to their cultural standards.

If you watch shows like Iron Chef, modern Chefs like Morimoto no longer depend on MSG to produce the Umami stimulation. In my father's youth they used stuff like MSG and maggi seasoning, but that's now out of fashion in Taiwan. I don't understand why people still clamber over MSG when it's yesterday's fashion.
Last edited by momopi on Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby momopi » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:51 pm

Winston wrote:Instead of asking my dad, why don't you just explain it to me, so others here can understand it too as well? Why overcomplicate things?

Yeah I believe in genetic memory. How else can you explain how a cat, when born, automatically becomes a trained expert at catching mice, even though it has no training? lol

But what is your point about this? Are you saying that people like me have different inherent tendencies and that's why we feel "weaker" or don't fit into America?


I cannot explain the Taiwanese concept of 人情味 in English, some things you just have to have a Taiwanese person explain it to you in Taiwanese. Literally it means the flavor of human feelings/emotions/relations, but it's not something that I can easily put in English.

Cats have a inherent tendency to chase mice, but kittens need to taught by their mother how to kill and eat the mice. Where kittens or even tiger cubs are raised by humans, they still have the tendency to chase down prey, but don't know what to do with it (other than playing with their catch).

It's possible that someone who comes from one genetic background would have different inherent needs than someone else from a different background. By this I mean something that is inborn and not a learned behavior. Psychology tries to explain this with theories like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but it doesn't explain why some people need more of X vs. Y.

For example, some people would spend hours arguing their point with nothing tangible to gain, but they feel psychologically fulfilled. For me, I make a distinction between leisure vs. non-leisure. Time spent on leisure activities can be given away for free, versus non-leisure should be compensated. The psychological fulfillment of winning an argument itself has no value to me, because there's no prize and winning arguments make enemies out of people that you might need later.

Thus, before I bother to engage in any discussion, I consider:
1) is this leisure or non-leisure? (is this a freebie or not?)
2) is there a real consequence to winning/losing? (is there a prize?)
3) is my time worth the effort? (am I being paid for my efforts?)

Other people would have different priorities. For me, I think it's silly to have person A make a short, one sentence accusation, and person B spends the next hour typing an elaborate rebuttal. From a time/value standpoint, Person B loses by wasting a lot of time, and by even bothering to respond, he gives Person A unwarranted credibility. Furthermore, the more you talk (or type) the more you give away about yourself, which person A will use later to send another one-line attack and sends Person B foaming at the mouth.

In the open market, many details about yourself is worth money. For example, your address is worth 50 cents, your date of birth is worth $2, your driver's license # is worth $3, your social security number is worth $8, your credit history is worth $9, and your education background is worth $12. If you served in the military, your military record is worth $35. So next time, when you fill out forms, consider how much you're giving away to people who will turn around and sell it for a profit.

Of course, you probably don't think like me.

Image
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Postby Winston » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:24 pm

I see your point Momopi. Yeah I am kind of debate prone. But I don't like to waste time either. However, I am very big on truth and accuracy and I hate misunderstandings. So if I see a misunderstanding or someone doesn't see the big picture, I try to clarify or go deeper to get my point across. That is logical. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it's not overdone.

Isn't truth and accuracy big on your list too?
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Postby momopi » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:51 pm

Winston wrote:I see your point Momopi. Yeah I am kind of debate prone. But I don't like to waste time either. However, I am very big on truth and accuracy and I hate misunderstandings. So if I see a misunderstanding or someone doesn't see the big picture, I try to clarify or go deeper to get my point across. That is logical. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it's not overdone.

Isn't truth and accuracy big on your list too?


When it's worth my effort, yes.

Also, before you make someone see the bigger picture, consider the consequences. The US "forced' Japan to see the bigger picture in 1853-1854, and the result was quite a disaster in East Asia.
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Postby momopi » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:44 am

globetrotter wrote:
You sell women on Equality and Workplace Acceptance, they flood the job market in 1970, wages drop, there is no non-working spouse to take up the slack during times of hardship both incomes become essential, the price of all assets - houses, autos, college education - rise, and credit card growth explodes. In 1970 there was almost no revolving CC debt in the USA as those who used CC's were business men. The first CC was Carte Blanche, then Diners Club - both were for big city expense account male executives to use. Putting women to work and giving them credit cards increased consumer spending.


The modern feminist movement has its roots in late 18th through 19th centuries, but the biggest catalyst to women in the workforce was WW2. To draw a comparison, in WWI only 1.6 million British women were called upon to enter the workforce, including 950,000 in munitions factories. In WW2, single British women age 20-30 were called up from March 1941. By 1943, 90% of single British women and 80% of married British women were working in factories and farms. 640,000 also served in the British armed forces.

In America, the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps was established in 1942 to recruit 150,000 women for service. American women also served in the US Army, Navy, and Marines. American women also entered the workforce, doing "man's job' including ship building. For America WW2 was also a catalyst toward racial desegregation. For the first time, many jobs that excluded blacks were open to them:

Image

It was a necessity to bring women into the work force, simply because all your young men were send off to war.

Women did not "flood" the work place in 1970s. Please see Bureau of Labor stats (hopefully this link works):

http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyO ... om_month=3

In the top, change the output options to "FROM 1948" to "2009" and click on GO.

In Jan 1970 the women's participation rate in labor was 43.3%, and in Jan 1979 it was 49.2%. That's an increase of roughly 6% over the decade. What enabled women to enter and STAY in the workforce is the birth control pill. Look, without the pill, no matter how much the Rockefellers might want to fund the feminist movement, women are not going to work if they pop 4 kids.

I don't dispute that having more women entering the work force caused a drop in wages and created the double income family problems. However, I also think that single vs. double income family is a lifestyle choice for many, unless if you're poor. I live in one of the more expensive parts of the country with over-priced real estate. I had many coworkers who opted to buy smaller, cheaper town-homes instead of a big SFR, so their wife could afford to stay home and raise the kids. Some took the relocation package and moved to San Antonio, where you could buy a large house for only $150,000.

My buddy was a "stay at home dad" for a year. His wife (pharmacist) went to work while he stayed home to raise the kid, the first year is the most difficult and time consuming. They live in a nice house in Palmdale (north of Los Angeles), where housing is cheap, and his wife make decent wages. If they had bought a more expensive house, or live a more extravagant lifestyle (he still drives the old Toyoda that his mom gave him), they wouldn't have been able to afford it.
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Postby Winston » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:24 am

momopi wrote:
Winston wrote:I see your point Momopi. Yeah I am kind of debate prone. But I don't like to waste time either. However, I am very big on truth and accuracy and I hate misunderstandings. So if I see a misunderstanding or someone doesn't see the big picture, I try to clarify or go deeper to get my point across. That is logical. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it's not overdone.

Isn't truth and accuracy big on your list too?


When it's worth my effort, yes.

Also, before you make someone see the bigger picture, consider the consequences. The US "forced' Japan to see the bigger picture in 1853-1854, and the result was quite a disaster in East Asia.


Huh? The US forced Japan to see the big picture for economic reasons and exploitation. That isn't the same reason I do it. I do it for truth, enlightenment and insight.

But you do have a point in that knowing too much outside the box can disrupt your internal order and harmony, upsetting one's rigid narrow views. But isn't that good in the long run? Why remain in ignorance?
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Postby Winston » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:13 pm

Here is a wonderful comparison of the European dream vs. the American dream by Jeremy Rifkin in his book "The European Dream", which I added to this essay. It makes so much sense and explains why the European dream is more progressive and leads to a better future.

Jeremy Rifkin, in his book, The European Dream elaborates on this in a scholarly manner:

(Pages 13 – 14)
"The American and European dreams are, at their core, about two diametrically opposed ideas of freedom and security.  Americans hold a negative definition of what it means to be free and, thus, secure.  For us, freedom has long been associated with autonomy.  If one is autonomous, he or she is not dependent on others or vulnerable to circumstances outside of his or her control.  To be autonomous, one needs to be propertied.  The more wealth one amasses, the more independent one is in the world.  One is free by becoming self-reliant and an island unto oneself.  With wealth comes exclusivity, and with exclusivity comes security.
 
The new European Dream, however, is based on a different set of assumptions about what constitutes freedom and security.  For Europeans, freedom is not found in autonomy but in embeddedness.  To be free is to have access to a myriad of interdependent relationships with others.  The more communities one has access to, the more options and choices one has for living a full and meaningful life.  With relationships comes inclusivity, and with inclusivity comes security.
 
The American Dream puts an emphasis on economic growth, personal wealth, and independence. The new European Dream focuses more on sustainable development, quality of life, and interdependence… The European Dream is more cosmopolitan and less territorial…  Americans tend to think locally while European's loyalties are more divided and stretch from the local to the global. The American Dream is deeply personal and little concerned with the rest of humanity. The European Dream is more expansive and systemic, and therefore more bound to the welfare of the planet.â€￾
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Postby globetrotter » Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:44 pm

Here is a wonderful comparison of the European dream vs. the American dream by Jeremy Rifkin in his book "The European Dream", which I added to this essay. It makes so much sense and explains why the European dream is more progressive and leads to a better future.

Jeremy Rifkin, in his book, The European Dream elaborates on this in a scholarly manner:


But it doesn't lead to a better future. European values cannot thrive in a world that they create because they result in population collapse. European birth rates have demographically imploded. The only reason that Europe and Russia have any growth is due to massive Muslim immigration. The European culture has resulted in 350 million selfish people who live for today, do not have children, and would rather enjoy life than engage in the most basic of human activities - that of passing on one's genes and making a generation of future children and citizens and tax payers. Europe is in an economic spiral of increasing human social welfare costs, costs that have only been possible because the US has provided so much of Europe's defense budget that they can raise taxes and spend it on income redistribution and national healthcare.

The future of Europe and Russia is Islam, and once Muslims become the majority there, those secular liberal humanistic values that are so "progressive" and make the European Dream possible will be discarded, forced out violently and replaced by Islam.

Look at all of the nations we travel to for women. None of them are Islamic, and when Islam becomes the majority in a culture our ability to travel there and meet women will disappear.

Who goes to Iran to find a wife? Saudi Arabia?

Where are some great places to go right now? Russia, Latvia, Baltics, E. Europe - all countries in the midst of demographic population collapse.

Fortunately for us this trend will take 50 years to come to fruition and we will be dead, but our sons will live on a planet with few options for travel for women because those great places we go to now will be conservative and muslim by 2050, or there will not be anyone there to meet.
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Postby Winston » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:41 pm

Every country or region has its problems. Which one doesn't? But Europe is more fun, sociable, inclusive and people seem happier and more open. And yes it does have more progressive ideas about the future cause they think globally in terms of integration and inclusivity, which is uniting. Exclusivity divides people, and as you heard, a house divided cannot stand. That's why there's a better chance with cooperation and inclusivity. What good is shutting out others after all?
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Postby Nate » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:17 am

globetrotter wrote:
Here is a wonderful comparison of the European dream vs. the American dream by Jeremy Rifkin in his book "The European Dream", which I added to this essay. It makes so much sense and explains why the European dream is more progressive and leads to a better future.

Jeremy Rifkin, in his book, The European Dream elaborates on this in a scholarly manner:


But it doesn't lead to a better future. European values cannot thrive in a world that they create because they result in population collapse. European birth rates have demographically imploded. The only reason that Europe and Russia have any growth is due to massive Muslim immigration. The European culture has resulted in 350 million selfish people who live for today, do not have children, and would rather enjoy life than engage in the most basic of human activities - that of passing on one's genes and making a generation of future children and citizens and tax payers. Europe is in an economic spiral of increasing human social welfare costs, costs that have only been possible because the US has provided so much of Europe's defense budget that they can raise taxes and spend it on income redistribution and national healthcare.

The future of Europe and Russia is Islam, and once Muslims become the majority there, those secular liberal humanistic values that are so "progressive" and make the European Dream possible will be discarded, forced out violently and replaced by Islam.

Look at all of the nations we travel to for women. None of them are Islamic, and when Islam becomes the majority in a culture our ability to travel there and meet women will disappear.

Who goes to Iran to find a wife? Saudi Arabia?

Where are some great places to go right now? Russia, Latvia, Baltics, E. Europe - all countries in the midst of demographic population collapse.

Fortunately for us this trend will take 50 years to come to fruition and we will be dead, but our sons will live on a planet with few options for travel for women because those great places we go to now will be conservative and muslim by 2050, or there will not be anyone there to meet.


Quite right...most of western Europe is in demographic collapse, that if unchanged will simply flush all the "sustainability" down the drain, because the one thing they are NOT sustaining, is their own populations, whereas immigrant populations are exploding. In addition, the social contract, as expressed in generous welfare schemes
and the "dole" will simply not have sufficient working populations to support them. Europe quite clearly must not really believe that their own culture is worth reproducing. The better future in Europe may not exist....when it comes to "inclusiveness", most Europeans quite clearly intend to include few or no children...but ah...the dreams of Bohemian whimsy die hard...and in the end, may yield to Sharia law, unless current birth patterns change.
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Postby momopi » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:43 pm

Winston wrote:Huh? The US forced Japan to see the big picture for economic reasons and exploitation. That isn't the same reason I do it. I do it for truth, enlightenment and insight.

But you do have a point in that knowing too much outside the box can disrupt your internal order and harmony, upsetting one's rigid narrow views. But isn't that good in the long run? Why remain in ignorance?


Words cannot be taken back once it's spoken. Do your own threat assessment and cost-benefit analysis in any given situation.

Sometimes it's better to simply let people evolve accord to their own pace. Since you like Star Trek:

"As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Starfleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Starfleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation."


Winston wrote:Every country or region has its problems. Which one doesn't? But Europe is more fun, sociable, inclusive and people seem happier and more open. And yes it does have more progressive ideas about the future cause they think globally in terms of integration and inclusivity, which is uniting. Exclusivity divides people, and as you heard, a house divided cannot stand. That's why there's a better chance with cooperation and inclusivity. What good is shutting out others after all?


There are fundamental cultural differences, which is what others are trying to say above. Christians at least believe in some form of free will to choose, i.e. "If you love Me, keep my Commandments". Islam requires absolute and complete submission, where your daily life is governed by what is permissible (Halal) and what is forbidden (Haraam). How people who are culturally Christian mix with people who are culturally Muslim, is a big question that will determine the future of Europe.
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