What guys don't understand about fear of approaching women

[Winston]

What guys don't understand about the fear of approaching women

What many guys, especially the ones involved in the PUA (Pick Up Artist) movement, don't understand about the fear of approaching women is that the reason they are afraid is not because they lack guts. It's because they can sense that the girls they want to meet do NOT want to be approached, so that to do so would be rude and violating. They subconsciously sense the "do not approach me" shield around them.

You see, everyone has body language and vibes. We can all sense them, even if we deny that vibes exist as a form of energy. There is a big difference between a girl who is approachable vs. one who is not. But this difference can only be described in words to a certain point. It is mostly felt and sensed by one's natural instincts. You simply "just know", even without observative physical signs or evidence. Even left-brained guys who deny that vibes and auras exist as a form of actual energy can instinctually sense others' vibes, despite their denial.

To try to put into words, an approachable girl looks at ease, relaxed, open and friendly. It's in her face, body language and aura too. She makes eye contact with others, smiles back at people, and has an open body posture. An unapproachable girl, on the other hand, has a closed narrow vibe and look on her face. She is uptight, serious, focused, does not make eye contact with others, and has a "don't bother me" look on her face. When you try to muster the courage to talk to her, you will feel a cold chill and an alarm will go off in you that says, "DO NOT! NOT ALLOWED! INAPPROPRIATE!" It has nothing to do with guts or bravery at all. And even the top PUA gurus can do nothing about it, despite their bogus claims. Guaranteed.

An adept "people reader" can spot these differences consciously, while others merely feel them subconsciously. Either way, one simply knows, even in the absence of physical signs.

So for example, say I'm in the Philippines where there is a very open culture. There, many girls are approachable and easy to chat with, without being introduced by a mutual friend. I could easily meet girls in public, flirt with them and get their numbers. It will look very relaxed and natural. To inexperienced others, it may look like I am bold and have guts. Yet when I fly to Japan, the opposite will happen. I will sense that the girls are unapproachable and are NOT comfortable talking to strangers, even of their own race.

Now this is not my imagination. In Japanese culture, people do not talk to strangers unless they are properly introduced by mutual friends, or it is for business-related purposes. It has nothing to do with you or whether they like you. It is merely a basic part of their culture. Almost everyone conforms to it. You can feel it in their "collective vibes" even. If you try, you will sense an inner alarm that says "NOT ALLOWED! FORBIDDEN! TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE!" It would feel like you were about to commit a cardinal sin and violation. You just know this.

In this scenario, it won't matter if you are the biggest daredevil in the world, or one of the top PUA gurus (e.g. David DeAngelo, Ross Jeffries, Mystery, etc.). It won't make a difference. Despite their bogus claims, if put to the test in this situation, the PUA gurus will undoubtedly fail. I can guarantee that.

If something is inappropriate, you just know it. You don't have to be told or given physical signs. And it's not your imagination either. You simply know, even if you are not good at reading others or have poor people skills.

What this means is that American guys are not really gutless, as the PUA movement claims. Not at all. They simply live in a culture where females are paranoid, not approachable, and don't like talking to strangers. To violate this is inappropriate, so most guys do not dare try.

Yet American pop culture maintains this myth that girls are very open and friendly in America, so that anyone who has trouble meeting or dating girls must have a problem - they are either too shy, nerdy, lack social skills or technique. So these guys who are afraid to approach girls, falsely assume, based on this myth, that they must be lacking guts or "technique" when in reality it isn't that at all. The girls they like simply don't want to be approached or do not find the guys to be their type, so they put out that vibe to them. The unwanted guy then senses this "reject shield" and misinteprets it as coming from their own fears.

This misconception is then capitalized on by the PUA movement and their gurus, who have a vested financial interest in selling expensive seminars and courses to these "average frustrated chumps (AFC's)" as they put it, to help them overcome their fears, which further perpetuates this myth. But it ends up being just a bunch of pep talk with little or no result.

In reality, it is extremely rare to change the mind of a girl who doesn't want to meet you by using some kind of "PUA technique", and even in such cases, the girl is likely to be mentally unstable or erratic.

Anyone can make bogus claims or brag. But to prove them is another matter. Reality is reality. And bogus claims usually fail when put to the test. I've seen it time and time again. A lot of guys who claim they can pick up girls in places where they are not approachable, end up chickening out or making excuses when put to the actual test. Even if it were possible, it would happen occasionally, not on an everyday anytime basis.

Of course, your looks matter. Some girls only want to be approached by guys that are "their type". These girls are "conditionally approachable" and you can also recognize them by their "don't approach me unless you're hot" vibe as well.

Now, suppose you are a very good looking white guy in Japan. In that case, yes a certain percentage of girls will be open to cold approaches from you. But we are talking a minority percentage here, not the majority. Most girls will still not be willing to be approached by you in public, even if they think you are very attractive. They are simply way too uncomfortable with it. Also, most Japanese girls will not date seriously outside their race, even if they have a curiosity toward white guys. You can find a girlfriend of course, or date several girls at once, from the percentage of girls who will be open to you. But you still would not be able to chat up any girl you want anywhere you want. No way. Not in Japan. And whether the girls interested in you will be the same ones you are interested in, is another matter.

So the lesson here is that approachability of women depends on the situation, location, culture and type of woman. It's not about guts or technique. You simply have to utilize those factors to the best of your advantage.

Now if you are in a culture where it is not appropriate to approach girls coldly, you can still meet them through introductions, parties or other social events. Those would be the socially acceptable venues in that case. But at that point, you would have to evaluate your desirability and eligibility to the females there. You’d have to gauge whether you are seen by a reasonable percentage of females there as the type they would be willing to date.

Here is why this matters:

Take the example of a typical Asian male in America who is not seen as “dating material� by over 99 percent of white females there. In that case, it wouldn’t matter whether this average Asian male goes out and meets many white girls at social events, parties, swing dance lessons, cooking classes, through mutual friends, etc. for he is simply NOT their type. Even most unattractive white females will reject him. The best he could do is engage them in polite casual chit chat. But that would be the limit. Any attempt at a date or hint of it, and they would blow him off immediately. In such a case, he is in a ZERO SUM game, for his attempt of using socially acceptable venues to meet women will simply be an exercise in futility (unless a miracle happens). Therefore, if you are not seen as a potential suitor by the females you are attracted to, it will not help you to have opportunities to meet them – whether through introductions, social events or cold approaches – for they simply will not be interested in you in that way.

Now in the earlier scenario of the good looking white guy in Japan, the results would be different. In his case, since a certain percentage of Japanese females will undoubtedly be interested in him, all he has to do is meet them through socially acceptable channels - at social events, parties or through introductions - and statistically he is eventually guaranteed to find some Japanese females who will be interested in him. Thus he would have a valid chance of getting results through these venues.

So you see, your desirability and eligibility is another important consideration you would have to factor in.

This will matter even if you are in a culture where the women are very approachable. For example, if the typical Asian male above goes to Russia, where the females are VERY approachable and have no hang ups about talking to strangers or being “hit on� by guys (which is socially acceptable in Russian culture) the same factor will apply. If he goes to Moscow, in Western Russia, where the Russian women are very racist toward Asian men and see them as sexually undesirable, he may be able to meet hundreds of girls easily by approaching them randomly in public. But they will usually end up using him for culture/language exchange and getting free dinners off him, or worse, milking him for cash and gifts. They will not take him seriously and will not be intimate with him beyond a certain point (if you know what I mean). However, if he were to go to Siberia or any part of Eastern Russia, where the Russian women are more pro-Asian (being closer to Asia geographically), his chances would be upped considerably. His race would not go against him, and far more females would take him seriously as a potential mate.

So, even in a super approachable culture like Russia, his desirability factor will ultimately determine his success.

There are always exceptions of course, but that’s how it generally is.

In any case, it doesn't hurt to try to develop your people reading skills, so you can size up people and situations quickly and accurately. If you are strongly left brained or practical, focus on utilizing the skills of your right brain so that you can function with whole brain holistic thinking. Being able to connect the dots and understand others requires the abilities of your right brain, not just your left. So don't neglect it.

That is my suggestion. Good luck!

[Jakob]

Winston, I agree with this. It's the same fear you might feel around a strange dog. If it's looking at you with its head down and not wagging its tail then you will likely be afraid to pet it because it may bite you, not because you are afraid of dogs.

Yes, the PUA community loves to say how inept the vast majority of men are. They say things like, 95% of men are totally clueless when it comes to women, which is a very suspicious number considering that meeting people is an intrinsic part of people's social psychology - in other words, we are wired to want to socialize and be around people. So it's simplistic to say that so many guys are completely clueless when it comes to meeting women. It legitimizes the very real difficulty men are up against, and introduces artificial solutions to solve it. PUA is an artificial solution to a problem that runs much deeper than just a basic lack of "seduction skills" as the gurus claim.

This becomes evident when you look at the solutions some of these guys propose. If these methods are so powerful, then why is playing the numbers game so damn important? Ultimately, it always comes down to the Law Of Averages, not the method itself, although some methods are more tailored to certain types of women than others. But really, what determines your level of success is how much you approach. But you have to approach so darn much that it's like a part time job, at least. Can you blame someone if they refuse to go through all that work? Are they "AFC" if they refuse to?

To make matters worse you have to put up with so much crap, bullshit, and hostility from so many women that by the time you do run into someone you click with it's not even worth it. In other words, the penalty far outweighs the benefit.

I find it pretty funny how these "gurus" who are so successful (because they do so many approaches) act as if they found the keys to Atlantis. In some ways it's informative because you know it CAN be done, but also disheartening because it takes so much work to get decent results. So calling the reluctance of men to go through all that, "approach anxiety" or "fear", is not necessarily accurate (as you say). There are other valid reasons such as, "why go through all that work for something that should be fun and natural?"

I can tell when a woman is unapproachable. I can sense it the same way you can smell dogshit. And yet, there have been many, many times when I have gone against my instincts and approached anyway, only to be proven that my instincts were right all along, and that approaching was a bad idea. Being in a positive state of mind did help a bit but only a bit. Ultimately, if a girl does not want to meet you nothing will work. I've hung out with guys with a really positive attitude and winged with them as they approached lots of girls, but almost every time we got nowhere.

If you want an acid test, go to any public venue; and watch how many girls approach guys. Chances are you will never or rarely see it. So if you never see girls approaching guys, or at least give them approach invitations (by way of open body language), then it's not that much of a stretch to understand that the girls don't want guys approaching them either. If they want to meet you they make it easy. It's really that simple.

Ask yourself, is it possible that every single guy at the venue is a dud? Is it possible that every single guy at the venue is incompatible with single every girl at the venue? No, to both.

Sure, you can always blame an individual for their lack of success but if the same thing is happening to tons of other guys, then you know something is up.

If the only thing you're up against is your looks and personality then there's going to be some girls that like you and some girls that don't. That's natural variation and it's normal. But if you get rejected by almost every girl, and BEFORE they get to know you, then you should start thinking that the problem is not with you, but with most every girl in THAT particular culture.

If you're good looking you will likely get a bit further along. So after the girl is done admiring your looks her social programming kicks in and the walls come up just like for every other guy. Therefore, most of the problems men are up against is not because they are not attractive enough, but because of the psychological problems women have when it comes to forming relationships with men.

The only guys who have lots of success in this dysfunctional environment are guys who approach tons of women. But the only thing you hear is the successes, not all the failures in between. And these successes become part of the cherry-picked testimonials; such as on David DeAngelo, and Mystery's websites.

The PUA types tend to be left-brainers because their "solution" to the problem is to analyze the parts and work on the individual areas of difficulty, and try to address them - which has its usefulness of course. But at the same time they are unable to look at the big picture, and see that something in general is wrong. They don't get that the system itself is broken and ultimately learning to navigate a broken system is pointless. So they teach the band-aid solution and what you have to become in order to be successful with modern women, but they ignore the implications of that.

The questions PUAs never answer:

- If men are so clueless when it comes to meeting women, then how come women are not also called clueless despite being held to much lower standards?

- If women are naturally passive, then why do so many women go out of their way to make it difficult for men to meet them? Wouldn't it be equally possible for women to put in that same effort, but with the intention of making it easy for men to meet them?

- If a certain method for meeting women is so superior then why do you have to approach tons of women for it to be effective?

[momopi]

Now this is not my imagination. In Japanese culture, people do not talk to strangers unless they are properly introduced by mutual friends, or it is for business-related purposes. It has nothing to do with you or whether they like you. It is merely a basic part of their culture. Almost everyone conforms to it. You can feel it in their "collective vibes" even. If you try, you will sense an inner alarm that says "NOT ALLOWED! FORBIDDEN! TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE!" It would feel like you were about to commit a cardinal sin and violation. You just know this.

In this scenario, it won't matter if you are the biggest daredevil in the world, or one of the top PUA gurus (e.g. David DeAngelo, Ross Jeffries, Mystery, etc.). It won't make a difference. Despite their bogus claims, if put to the test in this situation, the PUA gurus will undoubtedly fail. I can guarantee that.

Street pick-ups (nanpa) is tolerated as a subculture for young people. My female friends who went to Japanese to teach English got hit on by guys quite often. Some references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanpa
http://www.quirkyjapan.or.tv/nampa1.htm
http://www.thegreathappinessspace.com/ <--- highly recommended film to watch (BT it)


For older Japanese men, they use telephone clubs to establish contacts with younger women for enjo kosai:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telekura
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enjo_k%C5%8Dsai

[jamesbond]

In America you are NOT supposed to approach women when you are out in public. You can only approach women at bars, clubs and parties not at a grocery store, department store or bookstore. It's just part of the US culture. Women in America are scared shitless of men and only want to meet men through their friends.

I would love to see a dating expert actually go out and approach women at bookstores, grocery stores, shopping malls, etc and I would want to be there to witness it. Let's see just how successful they would be.

[wraith]

Interesting pic, jamesbond. Most women in the US who act like typical 'American women', are those who are influenced by American culture to a strong degree, especially white American women and black American women. Not many Asian and Latina girls in the US act like it, but there are quite a few.

[ladislav]

Cultural, demographic, male/female ratios and economic factors are never taken into account by the PUAs. Also, this so called age of globalism, dating outside the US is still seen as a sacrilegeous taboo. Why? A Frenchman or an Italian will not think that if he goes to Sweden to date, he is a loser. I think PUAs are just opportunist who are into making money. And there will be enough suckers to keep them afloat for a long time to come.

[firethrower1000]

why is it that Japanese women has become so hostile? And are Chinese women more open ,relaxed and approachable than Japanese and Korean women?

And when it comes down to Mistery's PUA techinques and David de Angelo's claims like you said they are all boggus and rubish and very misleading because it all depends on wether she is approachable or unapproachable...And there are no techniques are pick up lines needed...To be with someone you have to get to know that someone first so simply get to know her in your own personal way...there is nothing better than being yourself and the feeling of naturalness its something that must be experienced first hand

[Winston]

Hi all,
I forgot to add this important section to the post above. You will see why it's relevant when you read it. The article in this thread will be a subchapter of my ebook below the approachable faces gallery at http://www.happierabroad.com/ebook/Page61.htm#Fear I've already updated the initial post with it.

Additional section:

Now if you are in a culture where it is not appropriate to approach girls coldly, you can still meet them through introductions, parties or other social events. Those would be the socially acceptable venues in that case. But at that point, you would have to evaluate your desirability and eligibility to the females there. You’d have to gauge whether you are seen by a reasonable percentage of females there as the type they would be willing to date.

Here is why this matters:

Take the example of a typical Asian male in America who is not seen as “dating material� by over 99 percent of white females there. In that case, it wouldn’t matter whether this average Asian male goes out and meets many white girls at social events, parties, swing dance lessons, cooking classes, through mutual friends, etc. for he is simply NOT their type. Even most unattractive white females will reject him. The best he could do is engage them in polite casual chit chat. But that would be the limit. Any attempt at a date or hint of it, and they would blow him off immediately. In such a case, he is in a ZERO SUM game, for his attempt of using socially acceptable venues to meet women will simply be an exercise in futility (unless a miracle happens). Therefore, if you are not seen as a potential suitor by the females you are attracted to, it will not help you to have opportunities to meet them – whether through introductions, social events or cold approaches – for they simply will not be interested in you in that way.

Now in the earlier scenario of the good looking white guy in Japan, the results would be different. In his case, since a certain percentage of Japanese females will undoubtedly be interested in him, all he has to do is meet them through socially acceptable channels - at social events, parties or through introductions - and statistically he is eventually guaranteed to find some Japanese females who will be interested in him. Thus he would have a valid chance of getting results through these venues.

So you see, your desirability and eligibility is another important consideration you would have to factor in.

This will matter even if you are in a culture where the women are very approachable. For example, if the typical Asian male above goes to Russia, where the females are VERY approachable and have no hang ups about talking to strangers or being “hit on� by guys (which is socially acceptable in Russian culture) the same factor will apply. If he goes to Moscow, in Western Russia, where the Russian women are very racist toward Asian men and see them as sexually undesirable, he may be able to meet hundreds of girls easily by approaching them randomly in public. But they will usually end up using him for culture/language exchange and getting free dinners off him, or worse, milking him for cash and gifts. They will not take him seriously and will not be intimate with him beyond a certain point (if you know what I mean). However, if he were to go to Siberia or any part of Eastern Russia, where the Russian women are more pro-Asian (being closer to Asia geographically), his chances would be upped considerably. His race would not go against him, and far more females would take him seriously as a potential mate.

So, even in a super approachable culture like Russia, his desirability factor will ultimately determine his success.

There are always exceptions of course, but that’s how it generally is.

[jamesbond]

Cultural, demographic, male/female ratios and economic factors are never taken into account by the PUAs. Also, this so called age of globalism, dating outside the US is still seen as a sacrilegeous taboo. Why? A Frenchman or an Italian will not think that if he goes to Sweden to date, he is a loser. I think PUAs are just opportunist who are into making money. And there will be enough suckers to keep them afloat for a long time to come.

Your right PUA's never take into account something like the male/female ratio in the US which is, between the ages of 18 to 50, there are 55% single men and only 45% single women! This really explains why it's so hard to find attractive single women in the US.

[djfourmoney]

Cultural, demographic, male/female ratios and economic factors are never taken into account by the PUAs. Also, this so called age of globalism, dating outside the US is still seen as a sacrilegeous taboo. Why? A Frenchman or an Italian will not think that if he goes to Sweden to date, he is a loser. I think PUAs are just opportunist who are into making money. And there will be enough suckers to keep them afloat for a long time to come.

Your right PUA's never take into account something like the male/female ratio in the US which is, between the ages of 18 to 50, there are 55% single men and only 45% single women! This really explains why it's so hard to find attractive single women in the US.

I totally agree with the entire thread.

Is it similar to a dog your scared of? I'm not totally sure. Most men are looking for obvious signs that a woman is open to contact. Since most women don't give this signal outside of like Mr. Bond says the usual places for interaction, most men are reluctant to go up to women. Those that beat this fear are not any better than men that don't, but are given brownie points for doing so.

But this has an effect when you travel. I will admit to being in "American Mode" in Europe when I largely didn't have to be. I tried to be aggressive and both times it failed but I only really tried twice. As I keep saying and I kick myself all the time, there was this really cute Norwegian Brunette that was the coat check person. I talked to her for a second and caught her dancing to the music and she smiled. I swear I was in a better position than I am now and if I had that kind of no fear thought process, I would have gone after her. She had a boyfriend but wasn't happy about him living in Oslo, while she lived in Bergen. I would have said; "You know, I just met you, but your really attractive with great smile and I know your unhappy with your current relationship." "If you agree to drop him and give me a chance, I'll rent an apartment in Bergen and we'll see where it goes..." I was in a position to afford it at the time, I could have done it and SHOULD HAVE DONE IT. I think she would have bought it.

This is why I know I can go into Europe and get the job done. It just sucks I have to sit here unemployed, waiting for classes to start in 3 weeks.

[jamesbond]

To try to put into words, an approachable girl looks at ease, relaxed, open and friendly. It's in her face, body language and aura too. She makes eye contact with others, smiles back at people, and has an open body posture. An unapproachable girl, on the other hand, has a closed narrow vibe and look on her face. She is uptight, serious, focused, does not make eye contact with others, and has a "don't bother me" look on her face. When you try to muster the courage to talk to her, you will feel a cold chill and an alarm will go off in you that says, "DO NOT! NOT ALLOWED! INAPPROPRIATE!" It has nothing to do with guts or bravery at all. And even the top PUA gurus can do nothing about it, despite their bogus claims. Guaranteed.

What this means is that American guys are not really gutless, as the PUA movement claims. Not at all. They simply live in a culture where females are paranoid, not approachable, and don't like talking to strangers. To violate this is inappropriate, so most guys do not dare try.

Yet American pop culture maintains this myth that girls are very open and friendly in America, so that anyone who has trouble meeting or dating girls must have a problem - they are either too shy, nerdy, lack social skills or technique. So these guys who are afraid to approach girls, falsely assume, based on this myth, that they must be lacking guts or "technique" when in reality it isn't that at all. The girls they like simply don't want to be approached or do not find the guys to be their type, so they put out that vibe to them. The unwanted guy then senses this "reject shield" and misinteprets it as coming from their own fears.

How true this is! Men in America are not "gutless" when it comes to meeting women, it's just that women in America do not flirt or give men any signals that they want to meet any guys.

In America women ignore men, have an "unapproachable look" on their faces, are uptight, serious and don't even make eye contact with men. Now how the hell are men suposed to meet women in this scenerio? It's not men who have the problem, it's the women in America who DON'T WANT TO MEET MEN for some reason!

[jamesbond]

I can tell when a woman is unapproachable. I can sense it the same way you can smell dogshit. And yet, there have been many, many times when I have gone against my instincts and approached anyway, only to be proven that my instincts were right all along, and that approaching was a bad idea. Being in a positive state of mind did help a bit but only a bit. Ultimately, if a girl does not want to meet you nothing will work. I've hung out with guys with a really positive attitude and winged with them as they approached lots of girls, but almost every time we got nowhere.

If you want an acid test, go to any public venue; and watch how many girls approach guys. Chances are you will never or rarely see it. So if you never see girls approaching guys, or at least give them approach invitations (by way of open body language), then it's not that much of a stretch to understand that the girls don't want guys approaching them either. If they want to meet you they make it easy. It's really that simple.

The only guys who have lots of success in this dysfunctional environment are guys who approach tons of women. But the only thing you hear is the successes, not all the failures in between. And these successes become part of the cherry-picked testimonials; such as on David DeAngelo, and Mystery's websites.

How true! When you are out in public in the US, Canada and the UK you never see women even giving guys friendly body language. Hell, women in anglo countries don't even make eye contact with men! Your right, women are the ones who DO NOT want guys approaching them.

When is the last time a woman in the US, UK or Canda flirted with you? Or started a conversation with you? Probably never!

If women want to meet you, they make it easy for you to meet them!

[The_Adventurer]

There was this permascowel girl that worked in a restaurant near my building in LA. I would see her walking by everyday looking angry at the world. I didn't have the slightest bit of interest in her, but one day I said, out of the blue, "You know, it's okay to smile one in a while." You would believe how shocked she was and she quickly smiled and relaxed. YOu could see it in her face and entire body. Some people may just be lost in the rat race, not necessarily out against guys...

[lovesong]

Do you wanna know why all these girls have these closed off vibes and energies? Look at the pathetic lot of guys who are surrounding them or leering at them.

I post this in the hopes that a few of you or future readers don't become influenced by the negativity of some of the posters here.

First off, to the original poster, read your post. The way you describe these girls is actually how you feel about yourself. Closed off?? I met my last girlfriend in Japan on the streets of Japan and my current gf on the streets in California. I also just had an instadate with two girls the day before yesterday where I went up to both of them and told them they were beautiful. Now, what's the key?? MY ENERGY! Yes, some girls are either in a bad mood or maybe don't seem open, but really they're longing for someone to bring some light and fun into their life. Not someone who's exhibiting the same behavior as them. Sounds like a few of you guys could use a girl to approach you with some light and fun.

Key is to focus on yourself and become a better person full of life. Yes, some girls may be more open than others, but at the end of the day, if you're feeling good and have a positive energy, what person wouldn't want to have some of that energy?

Oh, by the way, I'm asian, not tall at all, so don't give me that lame excuse of race or looks. Change your life and perspective now! Otherwise, you really are living a sad existence.

Peace out!
lovesong

[odbo]

This tool above me, with his tv responses and 'blaim the victim' pop-psychology managed to bring up a good point.
American women are the dead, and if you join them they'll suck the life energy out of you as well.

Change your life and perspective, as he says.. but by moving. Seek life and happiness not cancer and death.