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Hi Guys, sorry for the late reply. I only had a week or so before coming back to the US and in my last days things opened up for me again. - so no time to write till now.
I was getting frustrated with the prospects since it seemed that most girls I met were just too innocent and wouldn't easily be alright knowing I'm leaving the country in a few days. Girls I met were very objective minded (marriage) and not interested in casual affairs. btw Repatriate, while I fit the role you mentioned above (sort of: tall, thin, avg looking white guy), I'm mid 40s, not 30 something anymore.
In Taipei went on a few dates with a 24yo (who I met at the airport), but it wasn't getting past holding hands & hugs. Either she felt I was too old, or because she knew about my USA life (still legally married with a child) she didn't want to get closer. Since I was pretty sexually frustrated, I visited some p4p options. In Taichung the KTV / massage places rarely get any white customers and the 3 experiences I had were all really good. 2 Chinese, and 1 Taiwanese (26-32 yo). The Taiwanese gal was 26, and amazing body. They all gave me tel. #, text me after, and hoped I would call to go out sometime, all great GFE! None of the 3 spoke English and I relied on my basic Chinese (& body language) to get by.
Anyhow, just when I thought my trip was winding down, I went to a Halloween party in Taichung and at 2am hooked up with a hottie. She was 29, and just started having sex this year. She came up to Taipei with me the next day and was cool with just sex and not asking too many questions. She spoke excellent English, but it was still good not to divulge too much and have wild sex non-stop for my last 24hours in Taiwan.
The lesson for me is that if you only have a short time in Taiwan, consider that the sweet, innocent gals are off limits. Go out to a bar/club, or rely on KTV massage places for your needs.
Winston, this leads me to something that might help you... Since Taiwan is a pretty conservative society, and many women aren't able to freely express themselves, there are deviants. You might have luck with a girl who is living outside the norm. To know who she is you should learn about body reading, posture psychology, etc. It's a law of numbers. I found this area in Taichung called Yizhong (near Zhongshan Park). I suggest you go there some Friday afternoon and hangout. The girls are young, mostly in college, but I noticed a number women who seemed very 'unconventional'. You can start by noticing how they're dressed. When I next revisit Taichung I'll definitely spend time there and let you know what I find.
If you're looking for P4P, China has far bigger choices than TW.
Red-light district sex work now legal
GREEN LIGHT:Yesterdayâ€™s amendment to the Social Order Maintenance Act allows customers, procurers and brothel owners to trade within designated areas
I am seriously thinking about doing the teaching English in Taiwan thing in the future... The pay is decent and the cost of living/food in Taiwan is much cheaper than America. Also I have browsed the Taiwanese girls on tagged and there are tons of hot single girls on there who respond when I contact them there.. Makes me think I would do quite well in Taiwan, and a Taiwanese 19 year old girl told me they do quite "appreciate" foreigners.. She was hot herself and said she would meet up with me if I came, she was from Taiwan. It is interesting all the girls in Taiwan looks like they at least have some class and some culture in them, whereas if I look at the women from my area in America on tagged they trashy as hell man!! WTF!!!
I think you're on to something here my man. The girls in Taiwan largely get passed-over by HA types.
And you don't need to compare them to Americans. That benchmark is way too low. Compare them to Filipinas, Thais, PRC Chinese, Russians, etc. and they still come-out looking pretty damn good. Of course each person is unique. But on average, I believe Taiwan girls have the following relative strengths:
- Strong family values
- Sincere and faithful in long-term relationships when they are treated right
- Sentimentality, the tendency to develop genuine feelings towards a man they date seriously over time
- High resistance to divorce
- Love of children and responsible nature towards them
- Solid work ethic
- Practical views towards saving, spending, and accumulating wealth
- Respect and appreciation for their partner if he is good
- Educated and refined
- Healthy, fairly tall, and physically attractive
- Larger percentage open to or biased towards western men as partners than women in other NE Asian or most SE Asian countries.
I've read claims on this forum that many people in PI truly accept westerners. Perhaps that is true to some extent. But I believe Taiwan is even better in this regard - both for non-localized foreigners who don't speak the national language(s) and for those who have immersed themselves completely into the host culture.
Consider, there is often a strong stigma attached with westerners in PI regarding P4P. And there is a general assumption among the bulk of locals that foreigners will automatically pay the bills for the group since they are the richest member. Its really hard to escape these problems when trying to immerse yourself into any poor third world country, no matter how accepting they might be of your race or nationality in theory.
In Taiwan, you just don't have these problems. The people you socialize with and the girls you date are generally going to be on an equal economic and educational playing field as yourself. In groups, you will not be expected to treat and may very well get treated. And there is minimal if any stigma involved with dating you. Some even find it preferable. Locals tend to adore mixed babies too. Sure, local newspapers have run stories from time-to-time of western playboys out and about in the cities of Taiwan. That has contributed to a general reputation that many are 'players' and there only temporarily, probably to teach English and take a break from their life back home. But, that's not always a problem. And when it is, it can often be overcome. Here are two ways you can play it:
1. If you wanna know as a player, there are some girls who are looking for this type of westerner. Some feel safer cus they know the guy is not too connected and will probably leave within months. My former French tenant fell into this niche. Ironically, he was looking for a more serious relationship but kept getting hit-up with girls who just wanted some fun. I think a big part of his problem was his poor ability to communicate - English was poor, spoke no Chinese.
3. If you wanna pursue a girl seriously, you just have to show her that you don't fit the stereotype. You will likely have to pass the same test with her one or two of her best friends and/or siblings. At some stage, you would probably need to win over her parents. If you can manage to pass these tests, which IMO are not hard at all if you really are sincere, than chances are, you will have earned yourself a quality gf and perhaps even future wife.
I think the primary reason why Taiwan doesn't rank highly is because most early adopters of HA are on average older men. I'd say 40+ yr old expats is quite the norm whereas young men looking overseas is comparatively rare still. I see a lot of young prowlers in Thailand but they are mostly backpackers or gap year party people rather than long stay expats. TW is not a developing world nation so seniors looking for wives half their age probably aren't going to have much luck unless they are seriously rich. Whereas in Thailand or the Philippines any sort of arrangement is possible.
A thing I should mention is that TW girls usually fit the physical profile of the women that other asian nationalities find the most attractive as well. Tall, light skinned, slim, and attractive face. This look is highly valued in SE Asia.
I recently had some short PM discussions with Repatriate regarding Taiwan. Since heâ€™s an American with Taiwanese parents, heâ€™s a type of "Taiwan insider" with an American perspective, similar to Momopi and Winston. His background contrasts sharply with my own and other LT western expats in Taiwan. Below is some historical and cultural context to OP as expressed through his insights in these PMs. He gave me permission to post them.
Rock Some people just perceive everything Chinese people do in a bad light. They are seen by some as being selfish, rude, greedy, stingy, etc. The American friend I mentioned is a sensitive Jewish guy, on the short side, speaks Chinese, and had done decently with local women in spite of being just average looking. He gets annoyed by the way taxis drive, people bump into to him and don't say excuse me, the loud noises, service at restaurants, etc. He's generally not done well in the office politics arena at the jobs he's had too. Thing is, he's pretty direct and rude himself. Sometimes he will lecture waitresses or other employees on how to do their job, etc. I even remember him once walking into a public restroom at a hotel, noticing a couple Taiwanese guys smoking, and telling them loudly and directly, "you're not allowed to smoke in here!" like he owned the place. He's really lucky not to have ever been beaten down given his attitude and behavior.
From my POV, his perception is off-kilter. When Taiwan people bump into to me, the most common response is a "sorry" in accented English. Service quality varies according to venue, etc. But generally, with some exceptions, there is a sincere attitude to make customer happy and correct any problems even though there is no tip on the line. Most taxis drive as best they can given the high traffic density. And cars will usually stop to avoid hitting pedestrians, quite different than places like DR.
Repatriate It could be a case where someone comes from a background that is very similar to Chinese people in many ways and so that triggers some internal self loathing mechanism. Then again some people often develop a superiority complex when they go abroad. I have no idea if that was what his problem was but local people do tend to home in on poor attitudes. It's harder to disguise because people are always watching you as the foreigner. If this is the same guy that likes Thailand more it could be that Thais give off the perception of being outwardly friendly and passive. However, if he treatd Thais like that regularly he isn't just risking a beat down but getting sent to the hospital with permanent injuries or outright murdered.
Rock Are Taiwanese selfish? That's a relative questions cus humans are born with a lot of selfish instincts. But I can cite ways in which an average Taiwanese would probably be considered less selfish than an American. For example, who is more likely to make major personal sacrifices or life adjustments to please their parents or family members. Who is more likely to go with the flow in school or at work in order to foster group harmony? Where is it more common to stick with general norms so as not to stand-out or disturb? Where is it more common to stick with general norms so as not to stand-out or disturb? As for rudeness, I think Taipei has become pretty polite in general - part of it is good education, part business motivated competition in service businesses, and perhaps you can throw in the effect of some Japanese and western influence. It used to be common at queues in banks and other institutions for people to swarm the front or have older women cut in front of you. That behavior has been markedly reduced through awareness and education. Anyway, most places now use a number calling system.
Repatriate Taiwan's modern history probably has a lot to do with this emphasis on social harmony and reserved personalities. I talked with my parents many times about what Taiwan was like back in the 50's-60's. My mother said that Taiwan in the 60's was pretty ugly, there were gangs of disaffected youth everywhere, government restrictions on rights, and unemployment was very high. It was also during this time that the civil govt would conduct secret purges. People generally lowered their heads and tried to avoid being on the radar. Standing out too much socially (especially politically) was frowned upon. There are several Taiwanese films about this period which talks about the general moral and economic decay in Taiwan, TW was probably much more similar to Southeast Asia during this period. City of Sadness, Dust in the Wind, A Brighter Summer Day are all good movies depicting this era. People were actually afraid the country might not survive and there was a feeling of desperation and transience with the KMT families who were integrating into this new society.
Then when the 70's-80's rolled around economic reform started to become the big thing. The late 70's-80's was a time of high prosperity for Taiwan and people became more intensely focused on economic matters. Academics, family, and rather conservative practical living became the emphasis. The TW traits that Winston always complains about probably became the bedrock foundation of society around this time. There was a sense of purpose and the risk taking, rebellious, and indolent attitudes of the 50'-60's just weren't the norm anymore.
Rock Consider one more scenario - a bunch of youths in a NYC subway car vs. a Taipei MRT car. In NYC, I've seen all kinds of rude and selfish behavior - kids do acrobatics or loud performances and then busk for tips, eat and leave their trash on the seats, talk extremely loud and aggressively, fight, or even attack people. I've only spent a few months in total in NYC, a relatively safe US city, yet I've seen all that stuff go down. Some of it is rather commonplace. I also saw someone get stabbed during the morning right in Manhattan Chinatown. Now consider Taipei. I've spent years there and frequently ride the MRT and bus system. Its kept spic-and-span clean. People totally respect all the rules. Worst thing I've ever seen is a few students getting a bit loud, but just slightly. Guess what happened? A middle aged women told them in a polite way to pipe-down so they hushed immediately and even looked a bit embarrassed. I almost never see any kind of violence in Taipei and have never been any kind of a crime or verbal assualt victim. On average, if you behave properly at least, you are much more likely to encounter threatening behavior living in NYC than in Taipei; kinda like comparing the chances of seeing a gator in Florida vs. Minnesota. The difference is material to say the least. So is US society really less rude and selfish than Taiwan's?
Repatriate Well authors like Mark Twain, Hunter S. Thompson, Matt Taibbi, Noam Chomsky, etc.. who have particular insightful commentaries about American culture have always pointed out that there's definitely a mean streak there. I doubt that's unique to America though but since America is still a "young" country in many ways maybe the traits that we call selfish are more pronounced. Social harmony matters less in America unless it has to do with practical concerns. Matter of fact to some extent America thrives on social disharmony. Competitive aggressiveness, assertiveness, individual worth, etc.. are all valued by the U.S. I'd say relatively speaking on an interpersonal level American culture is definitely more outwardly rude and selfish however the reasons why are complex. Maybe it's the natural state of things when you have large groups of culturally dissimilar people living together for decades who are brought up in a culture of competition and individualism.
In some ways America is (was) also the ultimate meritocracy. If you're willing to be selfish, rude, but are also competent, ambitious, and competitive you can go very far. I think this type of person would encounter many more roadblocks in a country like Taiwan where harmony and a certain degree of social finesse is required.
I suppose this is changing slowly though in a rather negative way in that America isn't as much about pragmatism these days as it is about maintaining a certain status quo and instituting a class system.
Rock Its funny that in spite of Winston's ancestry, it gets passed-over as a potential HA destination by most of the forum members. Its also pretty much off the map in general as far as guys looking for Asian women are concerned. I suppose that's a good thing. Cus if foreign guys flocked over there like they do to Thailand and PI, it would get damaged badly. When a minority group is small and low-key, they are generally not perceived as much of threat or annoyance by the locals. But once they reach a visible critical mass, all the hate starts to come-out, especially if a significant number affront local sensibilities.
Repatriate I think it's pretty much impossible for Taiwan to support a big market for foreign men looking for LT partners. I guess it's just the way TW culture is. You're right, if it became an internationally famous (or infamous) place for this or associated with p4p then the doors would slam shut really fast.
Once upon a time Taiwan hosted a U.S. military base around the Vietnam war. When various SEA and NEA countries sprouted red light districts and heavy P4P type presence the Taiwan population didn't fully embrace that sort of sexual permissiveness. It was considered very taboo and low class that's why you don't see a substantial number of war era hapa children in Taiwan that you see in SE Asia or even in Korea.
However, with that being said TW is definitely a destination already for Japanese men to marry TW women. That's the #1 pairing by far for TW women, there's at least twice as many TW women marrying Japanese men than any other foreign nationality. There are a few famous half Japanese/Taiwanese actors out there..one notable one is Takeshi Kaneshiro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeshi_Kaneshiro.
Thanks for posting that up, I enjoyed that exchange and conversations like that are the reasons why I come here.
A few more interesting things about Taiwan's history. Prior to Japanese occupation and colonialism Taiwan was considered a backwater port by the last (Qing) dynasty. It was known as a place for straits pirates, Ming loyalists, rebels, and other malcontents to shack up. Ironically, descendants are still separate from the mainland and maintain a bit of that attitude.
What we see today is very much a recent development. Its identity is even newer than the U.S. Despite what native Taiwanese claim there was no collective identity on Forumosa prior to foreign (including KMT) colonization. It was always an amalgam of tribes, small settlements, and port towns until the last 50 years of economic boom.
Momopi posted this up on another thread but I thought it was fascinating although a bit obvious. If you overlaid the chart that shows U.S. real wage stagnation with a chart of Taiwan or any other asian tiger's economic development it would be a nearly inverse relationship during the same time period. U.S. wages were stagnating while wages and living standards in Asia during the late 70's, 80's were skyrocketing. This latest emerging markets trend with the BRIC nations seems to be the second wind of a global economic balancing act.
Excellent discussions, here - very informative. There's also an expat forum for Taiwan called http://www.forumosa.com and there are quite a few interesting topics there, too, especially in the Relationships and Dating section if you want an insight into the women from a western perspective.
If anyone has been to Hong Kong as well (I've been to neither), I'd be interested to read a comparison with Taiwan in terms of living standards, friendliness of the local culture, and the women of course.
"So stop playing chess and start playing go."
This is a fantastic metaphor for the problems a Westernized Asian man faces in Taiwan.
Where was that Vegetarian place that you took those pictures from? It looks fabulous!
Yu Shan Ge
14, BeiPing E. Road
Hours: 11:30 am-2 pm, 5:30-9 pm
MRT: ShanDao Temple
Credit cards accepted.
I lived in HK for a short period and have visited more times than I can count.
Pros relative to Taiwan
- Easy access to southern Chinese cities - Shenzhen, Zhuhai, etc. + Macau by boat, train, or bus
- More extensive and international P4P industry has developed in last decade; you can find girls from LatAm, Africa, and PI in Wanchai, and there are lots of girls from PRC and perhaps even some HK locals who advertise from their apartments for walk-ins. Not sure about pricing but I'm guessing US$150-250 per session.
- More of an Asian and international hub, easy fights all over the world.
- Better developed non-teaching job market in various industries with more opportunities for English speaking expats.
- English widely used in many businesses, both spoken and written form. Probably easier to get around with just English.
- Better weather than northern Taiwan including Taipei - less rain and higher average winter temps. This con can be mitigated by choosing Taichung or Kaoshiung over Taipei.
Cons relative to Taiwan
- Real estate much more expensive - rents double to quadruple, price per sq. meter 3-5 x or more. This means your overall cost of living in HK is much higher than Taiwan.
- Locals much less friendly and closed to intimate social contact with westerners IMO. Majority of local Hong Kongers decedents of Cantonese and to a lessor extent Shanghainese, not the nicest groups of Chinese to say the least. Also, locals are used to living in separate worlds from whites as a legacy of British rule.
- Locals also tend to be more provincial IMO, harder to relate to and socialize with in groups.
- Cantonese significantly harder to learn well than Mandarin for a native English speaker.
- Less English teaching work and salaries for such jobs are lower.
- More densely populated and crowded. Outdoor activities harder to pursue - hiking, mountain climbing, bike riding, surfing, etc. in HK than Taiwan.
In many other ways, I think the two are quite similar. Both are very safe, convenient, and have excellent security. Both are Chinese. Both offer easy access to SE Asia and China. And both are well developed and efficient.
The provincial attitude of HK'ers can't be said enough..if you're not a Cantonese speaking Chinese person then you're in the "out" group already. Plus I found that HK people as a whole were extremely reserved and kind of rude. I politely asked to borrow a pen one time in line and this HK guy gave me the nastiest look like he wanted to fight or something. Well, at least he still let me borrow his pen. That's the first time I ever encountered that much bad attitude in Asia for no apparent reason.
Another downside is that Hong Kong is also small. There's only so much to see and do unless you're loaded like one of those HK tycoons. A night out is expensive. I can't imagine night clubs and the like are cool places to go in super trendy HK either unless you're loaded or extremely handsome by HK's relatively high standards.
HK women are also known for being high maintenance, materialistic, and arrogant. They have very western big city type attitudes because HK was more or less a western zone for a long time.
With that being said I do like HK for everything else it's got. I had a lot of fun there when I took my g/f but we did the usual touristy things and even went to disneyland.
Forgot one more relevant point. With regular Taiwan girls, if you make an OK salary, they are often satisfied with that and dig no further. With HK girls, and this is what I frequently heard as I don't have a lot direct experience, they want to see your balance sheet, in other words, to know what your net worth is. They are very calculating about practical matters.
As a student, I did exchange at one of the unis there. None of the western students I knew of paired-up with local girls. Best I saw was one (my roomate) who got a couple under the table b***y calls from a local who had a steady local boyfriend.
Another one of the exchange students was from Taiwan. He told me straight-up that Taiwan girls, by far, make much better partners/gfs/wives than HK chicks.
If pursuing local females is an important part of your motivation for relocating, I don't think there's much of a contest here.