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Approaching Taiwan girls - Response to Winston

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Postby Winston » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:41 pm

Check this out. This girl who wrote me from Craigslist says she can't meet or flirt with any guys here!

hi,

so i'm an avid user of craigslist from the bay area and am being moved back to Taiwan soon. I get your issues, taken that I'm a girl, you can't just approach a guy here. I can't go up to them, touch their arm and flirt aimlessly. I get it! and OMG i think I just want to scream out in protest. Asian guys really aren't my thing, but I think the women of Taiwan are taboo. You can't have them, you can only look. But I wish you luck, and if you ever need a buddy, let me know.

Stephanie


The thing is, most people who write to me from Craigslist just write once, and then never again. It's like they are so flaky and inconsistent.

I posted this personal ad there too, about being an extrovert in the land of introverts.

Hi there,
I am a Writer, Online Entrepreneur and Expat Consultant. I am a Chinese American.

I come to Taiwan sometimes to visit my family. But I don't have many friends or connections here, cause this is a very introverted society where people tend to socialize only at work or school or within closed cliques, or only for business related purposes. I know it's taboo to say that, but it's the truth and I ain't ashamed to admit it. So basically I'm an extrovert who is relaxed and open in personality, amidst a sea of introverts who are shy and not that easy to meet or befriend.

I am also a freespirit who is into creativity and freedom. I am not a workaholic, nor do I believe in the slave mentality and bondage here. So that makes me stand out in another way as well. I live for passion, not business. I am not solely practical and materialistic like the mainstream are here.

I know what you're thinking, "Why are you in Taiwan then? Shouldn't you be in Europe or Latin America?" Well true, but I have a thing for Asian women, so I'd like to make some female Chinese friends, since they are my own kind and genes. That's the irony.

Anyhow, are there any other extroverts here besides me? Or any that are on my wavelength that can relate to me? If so, email me.

New guy friends are welcome too, though I'm not gay.

Thanks.


And this woman wrote me back, claiming that she is also an extrovert here and feels out of place as well:

Hiya fellow extrovert!

It's comforting to know - for me atleast - there are people like you experiencing the same problems as I do. And let me reassure you it's not only Taiwan - several other parts of asia are pretty much the same..where our strengths used to serve us well in Western societies, they have become our obstacle in societies such as Taiwan. We stick out - or rather our personalities do - like a bit of a sore thumb.

Many would brand me an extrovert, but really, having spent half my life in the UK does tame down some of them...shall we say "outgoing" tendencies. Them British! *clenched fist*

Anyway me and 2 girlfriends are in Taipei for a couple of days so if you are also in the area, perhaps we should meet up on Sunday - have a bit of a moan and what not over a drink or dinner. We're all well educated and well travelled, decent looks and manners, and will try our absolute best to behave ourselves in your company. Should be a good fun!

K
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An Idea

Postby Rock » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:07 am

Winston wrote:Those are all valid deductions Rock.

Yeah there are a higher percentage of hot girls in TW than in the PH. But there is a tenseness around them that doesn't feel good to deal with at all. I can still find many attractive girls in the PH easily, or are at least doable, or super cute.

Why don't you ask your French tenant how he meets girls, and if he is able to approach them in public places and nightmarkets? Ask him specifically what he does and says. Ask him if TW girls make eye contact with him usually. Ask him if he thinks the average guy can easily meet girls in Taiwan.

Or have him email me and give me the answers.

Today I walked into a shoe store, and the girl working there that looked like a model would not even greet me or ask if I needed any help. She just tried to ignore me. So much for customer service. If the French guy had been there, maybe she would have been more enthusiastic. Sucks.


Winston, you gave me an idea. My French tenant is scheduled to leave on August 15 so I will ask him to do an exit interview before I check him out and then post it on this forum. He should have a lot of interesting things to say since he grew up in Paris, spent some time in Rio (his brother lives in Ipanama), and then came to study in Taipei.

If you or others have questions you would like asked, please forward them to me.

I am going to wait until a day or two before he leaves since my interview may imply tacit approval of his womanizing. Then he might bring even more gals here which would piss my girlfriend off big time. She gets angry every time a new girl appears and has already asked me to evict him.
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Postby Winston » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:10 am

Rock, Momopi,
The other day at a vegetarian canteen, there were two hot girls sitting by themselves. They looked totally withdrawn and repressed. They looked grim and solemn as they were eating, as though they were in a monastery.

Is that how girls normally are in Taiwan? Please tell the truth without any political correctness.

And would YOU be comfortable approaching such girls? If so, how?

People with withdrawn repressed grim solemn body language do not look approachable at all. Their vibe simply says "Don't bother me". Even if you look at them and smile, they don't notice.

What the hell can you do in such situations? Nothing?

So am I to believe Repatriate when he claims that if he were there, the girls would suddenly lighten up and become relaxed and open? lol. That's f***ing bullshit.

Also, when I see cute girls pass by and say hi or excuse me, they just pass by like I'm not even there. What can you do about that? How do you get them to stop and talk to you?

I've gotta say, even in the US, at least SOME girls will stop and talk to you if you say "Excuse me" so in that sense, people are easier to talk to in America than in Taiwan, in my experience.

Also, I get this vibe from Taiwanese women that since they act very conservative and goody two shoes, I have to be the same and pretend to be "goody two shoes" too. I can't be open, direct and flirtatious with them like I can in most countries. I hate that. It means I can't be myself. Horrible.
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Postby Winston » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:11 am

Rock, a question for you.

You say you've been to all these countries and cultures. So let me ask you: Do you honestly claim that you do not see any difference in how girls in TW are vs. other countries?

For example in the thread about Middle Eastern women on this forum, me and another guy mentioned that ME women tend to be very down to earth, relaxed and easy to talk to. Surely you see that TW women, and oriental women in general, are nowhere near as relaxed and open as ME women or similar types. NOWHERE! Don't you?

If so, why are you afraid to admit it?

I am 100 percent certain of this and would bet all my money on it.

If you cannot see such obvious differences, then I have to question if you've lost your mind or not. That's like claiming that you can't see the difference in size between a minivan and a big rig truck.

Regardless of how many guys get girls in TW, the absolute fact is that TW girls are NOT as open, relaxed and easy going when it comes to meeting guys as foreign women in Russia, Latin America or the Middle East are. That is 1000000000000000000000 percent obvious. There is not a millionth of a percent doubt about that. Surely you can see that can't you?

Come on now. Sometimes I think you guys just like to rattle my chain and get a sort of "power trip" from it. Certainly some are like that.

Do you take back your statement that TW women are just as open and relaxed and approachable as Russian women? Would you bet your money on it? I can see Ladislav rolling over and laughing at that statement.

Finally, blaming my age or my looks is a total copout. Even if I were a teenager again, TW girls are still not open or relaxed, but very uptight. That changes nothing. And even if I were not isolated in my neighborhood and had my own car in TW, the fact is that the PROBABILITY of me meeting anyone are still slim, unless I have some "connecting activities" like work, school, church, etc. but even then if you don't vibe with them, they still won't like you beyond surface politeness. So why do you keep blaming these copout excuses that do not change the reality the facts? I've gone out in TW before and I know what people are like, and I know that the probability of meeting someone that likes you and won't flake it very slim. You keep ignoring that. I'm not stupid. Your age does not change the uptightness of TW girls. They are still uptight. The reality is the reality. So why deny it and focus on copout excuses? I can tell the difference between open sociable people and closed uptight people. Don't insult my intelligence.

I talked to Jeff about this and he agreed that all these excuses are just copouts that ignore the reality.
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Postby Rock » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:52 am

Rock, a question for you.

You say you've been to all these countries and cultures. So let me ask you: Do you honestly claim that you do not see any difference in how girls in TW are vs. other countries?

I do see a difference in TW girls and I’m grateful for it. It has served me very well.

For example in the thread about Middle Eastern women on this forum, me and another guy mentioned that ME women tend to be very down to earth, relaxed and easy to talk to. Surely you see that TW women, and oriental women in general, are nowhere near as relaxed and open as ME women or similar types. NOWHERE! Don't you?

1. Middle Eastern women – a very broad category. Can we get away from these broad brushed generalizations? Are there no general differences between women from say Jordan vs. Iran or Saudi Arabia? What countries were you and your friend referring to when you claimed that ME women tend to be very down to earth, relaxed, and easy to talk to?

2. How can I accurately comment on a group I have no personal experience with? And how much experience do you have with ME girls and from which countries? I’ve only been to the Middle East once (Abu Dhabi and Dubai). I’ve never dated a Middle Eastern girl nor befriended one. I see a lot of Muslim Middle Eastern women from various countries when I visit Bangkok. They generally seem to be under the control of their men or families. I also see a lot of young Israeli women who do not seem at all friendly to outsiders. A couple of my Jewish American friends tried to break into their groups and got nowhere. But I have no personal experience.

If so, why are you afraid to admit it?

Admit what? That TW women and oriental women in general, are nowhere near as relaxed as ME women or similar types (your wording). How should I know??? But are you sure, that if you compared an average TW woman to say, an average young Saudi woman in a burqa, that the Saudi woman would more down to earth, relaxed, and easy to talk to? Somehow I don’t think you really know what you are talking about here.

I am 100 percent certain of this and would bet all my money on it.

Certain of what? What exactly do you wanna bet on here? What are the specifics?

If you cannot see such obvious differences, then I have to question if you've lost your mind or not. That's like claiming that you can't see the difference in size between a minivan and a big rig truck.

You question if I’ve lost my mind? Obvious differences? ME woman and similar types (whatever that’s supposed to mean) vs. TW/oriental women? Please Winston, please. Your cracking me up.

Regardless of how many guys get girls in TW, the absolute fact is that TW girls are NOT as open, relaxed and easy going when it comes to meeting guys as foreign women in Russia, Latin America or the Middle East are. That is 1000000000000000000000 percent obvious. There is not a millionth of a percent doubt about that. Surely you can see that can't you?

Well, since you say so, it must be obvious, eh Winston? I’ve already stated, whether or not TW girls are generally not open, relaxed, or easygoing is a moot point IMO. When I first went abroad, I sought a rich social and dating life, girls who would treat me well both to my face and behind my back, and would spend lots of quality time with me. If a generally closed and uptight culture makes this more possible, then I welcome it.
For me, making deep connections is more important that racking-up 100s of random smiles and casual conversations with strangers.


Come on now. Sometimes I think you guys just like to rattle my chain and get a sort of "power trip" from it. Certainly some are like that.

Can’ speak for others but in my case, I’m just stating my true opinions and honest observations.

Do you take back your statement that TW women are just as open and relaxed and approachable as Russian women? Would you bet your money on it? I can see Ladislav rolling over and laughing at that statement.

Post the link to where I made that statement? I wouldn’t bet money on it. Perhaps Lad is laughing at something else.

Finally, blaming my age or my looks is a total copout. Even if I were a teenager again, TW girls are still not open or relaxed, but very uptight. That changes nothing. And even if I were not isolated in my neighborhood and had my own car in TW, the fact is that the PROBABILITY of me meeting anyone are still slim, unless I have some "connecting activities" like work, school, church, etc. but even then if you don't vibe with them, they still won't like you beyond surface politeness. So why do you keep blaming these copout excuses that do not change the reality the facts? I've gone out in TW before and I know what people are like, and I know that the probability of meeting someone that likes you and won't flake it very slim. You keep ignoring that. I'm not stupid. Your age does not change the uptightness of TW girls. They are still uptight. The reality is the reality. So why deny it and focus on copout excuses? I can tell the difference between open sociable people and closed uptight people. Don't insult my intelligence.

I didn’t blame your age or looks. But age and looks do have a big impact on results. It’s not a copout, its reality. You just need to spend more time in the real world to see this.

You seem to obsess a lot on how TW girls are not open and relaxed. Understand, I am not disputing you here. Why waste so much energy stuck on that point. Just let it go. You have a nice gf and son waiting for you back in Angeles. Why don’t you just give up entirely on TW girls and look forward to returning to Phils?

Winston, I’m not trying to insult your intelligence. But you have an annoying habit of returning to the same point – TW girls are not open and relaxed but very uptight – over and over again. You’ve been doing this for several months already. Can’t you ever remember, I conceded this point to you? I just remind you that it doesn’t change the fact that many visitors (0ver 50% of the younger ones IMO) manage to carve out a rich social and dating life here in spite of TW girls being not open, not relaxed, but very uptight. As I’ve requested before, please burn this point into your brain.


I talked to Jeff about this and he agreed that all these excuses are just copouts that ignore the reality.

You’re the one making excuses. A lot of other guys visiting here have girlfriends or date serially. That’s the reality. Why don’t you ask Jeff to express his opinions openly on this forum? Otherwise, you can give him my email if he wants to discuss them more privately.
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Postby momopi » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:15 pm

Winston wrote:Rock, Momopi,
The other day at a vegetarian canteen, there were two hot girls sitting by themselves. They looked totally withdrawn and repressed. They looked grim and solemn as they were eating, as though they were in a monastery.
Is that how girls normally are in Taiwan? Please tell the truth without any political correctness.
And would YOU be comfortable approaching such girls? If so, how?


Well, being in a restaurant, I'd naturally ask them about food.

"...the dumplings are like fluffy pillows resting on its porcelain dish. My patience ran out as I bite into one. It's still scorching hot and I did a little dance with my tongue to cool off the part in my mouth. Steam billows furiously from the dumpling where I had bit into. Inside, a torrent of chives, minced pork, and cabbage waiting to spill out, perfumed by the scent of toasted sesame oil. The dough of the dumpling is moist but not damp, there's a lightness to it, an airy puffiness like a cloud..."

It takes hours to cook and years for wine to age, but the food & wine is only in your mouth for seconds. Slow down, taste, and enjoy.


Observe, taste, learn. Know what flavors are avail locally and what's not. Learn to cook dishes in flavors that are not avail locally. Figure the rest out yourself.
http://www.amazon.com/Native-Foods-Rest ... 1590300769
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Postby Rock » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:59 pm

Winston wrote:Rock, Momopi,
The other day at a vegetarian canteen, there were two hot girls sitting by themselves. They looked totally withdrawn and repressed. They looked grim and solemn as they were eating, as though they were in a monastery.

Is that how girls normally are in Taiwan? Please tell the truth without any political correctness.

And would YOU be comfortable approaching such girls? If so, how?

People with withdrawn repressed grim solemn body language do not look approachable at all. Their vibe simply says "Don't bother me". Even if you look at them and smile, they don't notice.

What the hell can you do in such situations? Nothing?

So am I to believe Repatriate when he claims that if he were there, the girls would suddenly lighten up and become relaxed and open? lol. That's f***ing bullshit.

Also, when I see cute girls pass by and say hi or excuse me, they just pass by like I'm not even there. What can you do about that? How do you get them to stop and talk to you?

I've gotta say, even in the US, at least SOME girls will stop and talk to you if you say "Excuse me" so in that sense, people are easier to talk to in America than in Taiwan, in my experience.

Also, I get this vibe from Taiwanese women that since they act very conservative and goody two shoes, I have to be the same and pretend to be "goody two shoes" too. I can't be open, direct and flirtatious with them like I can in most countries. I hate that. It means I can't be myself. Horrible.


Winston, I wouldn’t mind giving it a try as long as they are adults. I could probably start with some silly opening like, “Hi, can I ask you, what are you eating, are you vegetarians? I’m just curious because this is my first time in a vegetarian restaurant. I’m only here because of my friend (pointing to Winston). I'll be honest with you, I'm a meat eater. I hope you're not too offended. Are you allowed to make friends with non-vegetarians?â€￾ If they respond with the ice treatment (tone and body language), I’ll just excuse myself with something like, “OK enjoy your healthy food, nice talking to you, as soon as he's done, I'm going to Fridays for some BBQ ribsâ€￾. But if by chance either one of them shows the slightest bit of friendliness, positive body language, or curiosity, I would move on to step 2. Rejection is just part of approaching. If they rejected us, I would just tell myself that its not personal, that they would have rejected anyone. No reflection on me (ego preservation).
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Postby Repatriate » Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:49 am

Winston wrote:Rock, Momopi,
The other day at a vegetarian canteen, there were two hot girls sitting by themselves. They looked totally withdrawn and repressed. They looked grim and solemn as they were eating, as though they were in a monastery.

Is that how girls normally are in Taiwan? Please tell the truth without any political correctness.

On the exterior that's how Taiwanese women are culturally but I feel Taiwanese women reward persistence and non aggressive flirtation. However women are women culturally things differ but not as much as you seem to think unless there are other factors involved..ie. gender imbalance in society.
So am I to believe Repatriate when he claims that if he were there, the girls would suddenly lighten up and become relaxed and open? lol. That's f***ing bullshit.

Winston why is it so hard for you to understand that different guys can attract different types of women? You can find a niche anywhere in society. Next time go to a club and just look around and think about how those young/30 something TW guys met their girls if the country is supposed to be this ultra repressed ball of angst like you make it out to be.

Some guys have broad based appeal..I already gave you two biographical profiles of ABC guys who have done really well. The guy who you mentioned on craigslist was also an ABC, but he was still very socially active and this jives well with what i've heard from a lot of my other ABC friends as well as my own experiences. The guys I know almost all universally work out, dress well, and are very good conversationalists. You would consider them "trendy" guys but actually they just knew enough about trivial topics that interest women to get them home and in bed.

The frenchman Rock knows probably fits this category at least. From what i've seen of some French guys i'm sure he can bullshit pretty well and at least presents himself as some stylish foreigner.

It's already been mentioned that you look a bit like a Chinese uncle or a taxi guy and it probably doesn't sit well with some TW women. Why don't you change your looks a bit and the way you dress? Ditch the grandfather jeans and lame haircut for starters. But wait..you won't do any of those things because you feel you don't have to make yourself appealing to others because that's trying to fit into a group which you believe you're above. :lol:
Also, I get this vibe from Taiwanese women that since they act very conservative and goody two shoes, I have to be the same and pretend to be "goody two shoes" too. I can't be open, direct and flirtatious with them like I can in most countries. I hate that. It means I can't be myself. Horrible.

Heh, a person's exterior demeanor does not always indicate their true personality. The problem is you work in broad generalizations and I believe you do have some fundamental problems with understanding social nuance despite your claims that you're some kind of guy with advanced social skills.
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LonelyPlanet members admit Oriental women are unapproachable

Postby Winston » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:34 pm

Check this out. Finally some truth without cliches and facades. The LonelyPlanet forum members admit that Oriental women are unapproachable and do not usually talk to strangers without proper introductions. So you see, I'm not insane after all! Some guys are willing to admit the truth rather than parrot the cliche of the Travel Channel!

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/t ... ID=1934027

In many Asian cultures, the only way to meet women in a socially acceptable fashion is to be introduced by a third party.

Make friends with expat women who might be acquainted with local women or make friends with local men who might know local women.

You can point it out all you want. If the local culture is that a young woman is thought to have loose morals if she interacts with someone to whom she has not been formally introduced, then she is not about to respond to your advances.

No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to stay in Taiwan.

Ruth


It's not just Taiwan you know - it's the norm in much of Asia. From what I know, the following places (the entire Indian subcontinent), Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Indonesia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar, Korea, Taiwan, HK, China - try saying "Hi" loudly to any female stranger and you will get a blank response at most. Asians (and not just the girls) don't have a culture of answering back to greetings the way foreigners have. And at best, in Thailand and Japan you might get an embarassed smile with the girls quickly drawing back.

This is Asian culture - not the West. Not the entire world works the same. The only time you may get a response back may be from an Asian that has spent a considerable amount of time in a Western country or someone that works in the service industry.


I said in a different post already. The Oriental women are the MOST unapproachable. You can't change it.
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Postby Winston » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:44 pm

Repatriate, the reality is that if a TW girl is sitting and eating and withdrawn, she wants to be alone. Just cause YOU are there doesn't mean she will suddenly become different.

I do not look like an uncle type or taxi driver type. That was a lame shallow opinion that is typical Asian shallowness.

If that was the real reason, then when I was in my 20's I would have done better with TW women, but I didn't. That debunks that lame logic about my looks right there.

Many women say that I am cute with soulful eyes. That's true. I have a different look on my face than most. But only some appreciate it.

I also act refined in the way I talk and carry myself. That's why job interviewers are usually impressed with me. I do not talk with the ghetto voice that taxi drivers or truck drivers in Taiwan talk with, nor do I have their wrinkly brown skin and ghetto voice. Hell no.

When women meet me, they can tell that I'm a writer, cause I talk like one. But of course, it takes an insightful person to recognize one.

Repatriate, just cause you can talk to TW girls doesn't get them into bed. It only makes them call you their "pun yo" (friend) but that's it. They aren't used to fast moving guys and TW guys are not fast moving. It's not in the culture.

I wonder if you've ever been to Taiwan for long Repatriate. Why aren't you living here if it's a paradise for you?
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Re: LonelyPlanet members admit Oriental women are unapproach

Postby momopi » Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:33 pm

Winston wrote:Check this out. Finally some truth without cliches and facades. The LonelyPlanet forum members admit that Oriental women are unapproachable and do not usually talk to strangers without proper introductions. So you see, I'm not insane after all! Some guys are willing to admit the truth rather than parrot the cliche of the Travel Channel!


ad·mit/ədˈmit/Verb1: Confess to be true with reluctance

Why do you think the poster's statement or claim is a confession made with reluctance?



Winston wrote:Repatriate, just cause you can talk to TW girls doesn't get them into bed. It only makes them call you their "pun yo" (friend) but that's it. They aren't used to fast moving guys and TW guys are not fast moving. It's not in the culture.


Young adults in TW often live with their parents, unless if they're away for school. Because the distance from home to school dorm is usually no more than few hours, it's not "safe" to shack up with a bf/gf incase if parents drop by to visit. In China college students leave their home provinces and travel for days or even weeks to their college, and many would simply hook up and shack with a bf/gf. After graduation they'd prefer to stay and work in the coastal province instead of returning home to inland province and be a rice farmer anyway.

When TW college students go study abroad, they're far from home and become more "liberated". More girls than guys go study abroad and few would return home as virgins. The younger college girls tend to burn through a string of boyfriends before returning to TW. The older, grad school students (read: >25, looking for husband) are prime pickings for better established Taiwanese American men in the US. They get introduced through social circles that meet at Taiwanese beer houses or other activities.
Last edited by momopi on Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby E_Irizarry » Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:13 pm

Where are Terrance, SSJ Paris, and DJ Four Money for this topic? LMAOLOLLOL
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Postby swincor » Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:27 pm

Winston wrote:I do not look like an uncle type or taxi driver type. That was a lame shallow opinion that is typical Asian shallowness.



I hate to break the bad news, Winston, but... I'm afraid you do.

Below this post are some picture samples of you posing with bargirls to illustrate that point.


If that was the real reason, then when I was in my 20's I would have done better with TW women, but I didn't. That debunks that lame logic about my looks right there.


Chances are... you probably didn't look that much different when you were in your 20s either.

You really should try to improve your skills in self-observation, Winston. The 2 key things are detachment and objectivity.




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swincor
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Another sample

Postby swincor » Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:34 pm

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swincor
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Postby Winston » Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:56 pm

Yes I did swincor. Here was me when I was 23:

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I told you I look better in person and skinnier too.

Why do you have trouble admitting that TW are closed and not approachable? The Lonely Planet members admitted it. And TW people admit it. So why is it so f***ing hard for people like you to admit the obvious?

The truth is the truth.

Also, back in 2001 I was corresponding with a girl named Trista who was a model. When I sent her my pics, she said this: (I saved the conversation since it made my day)

Angelgirl121786: I find you very attractive!
WWu777: no way!
WWu777: you're kidding me!
Angelgirl121786: no


Later in one of her emails to me, she wrote regarding my looks: (pasting from my email archives)

I do like your contact sheets. It's so weird to think that you look like that after picturing my own image of you. It's all good though because you ended turning out to be a really cute guy. You should have trusted me to see your pictures a long time ago. I have a lot of school work to do so I'll talk to you later and umm.... good luck with those girls... heheheh just teasing you don't need luck you got the looks and personality that every girl wants.


This girl was a jeans model too! I have autographed pics from her that she sent me by mail. She was gorgeous, near perfect looking.

What model has said such words to you swincor?

Here is Trista's picture on Facebook. Look how hot she is. For her to tell say that I'm really cute, TRUMPS your opinion anyday swincor!

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