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I agree with Sexter. Those aspects of PUA which worked for me all happened in the context of a social circle among people whose status and interests are mostly the same as my own.
I guess one could point out that I failed to get laid with super hot women (although some were quite cute IMO), but I'd rather get laid with minimal trouble with an average looking woman who shares at least some of my interest than approach thousands of hotties in clubs or on the street and get constantly shot down (not to mention worrying about harassment accusations O.o) just to get a small sliver of affection.
THAT just pisses me OFF SO MUCH! She talked to you for so long, she seemed to have fun, WHY NOT KEEP YOU AS A FRIEND? You may know someone that she could like, she may introduce you to her girlfriends and maybe one of them will like you etc. Russian girls do it all the time, they will tell you "hey I have a boyfriend, but my friend Natasha or Yulya is available". She will even show you pictures of her friends and then introduce both of you to each other. I've done it for many Russian/Ukrainian friends in the U.S. Two of my friends MARRIED those Russian girls I've introduced them to. It's amazing how anti-social people are in the U.S.! Yet when I was in college, we were told to go to Career Fairs to get "networking", meaning basically meeting future employers and getting contacts etc. WELL, WHY NOT get networking going in everyday life??? No, no in the U.S. *Sigh*
Duh! Exactly! WTF is wrong with that? If you are deep ghetto trash with no teeth, rich hot bitches love you! I've seen it TOO many times in college bars. It even seems to me that money does not impress those girls as much as dirty smelly thugs! And then those girls claim they are afraid of men? Contradictions everywhere, double standards everywhere! It does not make any freaking sense at all.
your thinking of this too rationally. Sure, the hot woman might go for the "dirty thug" or "bad boy" but they are doing things that is attractive such as
1. not impressing anyone
most guys in the USA are "nice guys" and "supplicate" to women. Sure, some women like "nice guys" but the really hot ones, they get bombarded by nice guys all the time.
what's funny is, you have to be alpha/dominant/etc to have a shot with a cute USa woman, but yet in russia,
i'm a "NICE GUY" and usually they are more polite and more willing to date you. THE Pickup artist scene in the USA is more geared towards gaming girls in the western world. YOu don't need "PUA" or "game" to get hot girls in russia.
fact is, USA is the western world, Women dont' realy need your money b/c they also have jobs or have boyfriends/dads who can give them money. YOu have to give them more in order to get with them. Women in the western world are starting to think "equal" of themselves to a man, thus getting a hot beautiful woman is a lot harder.
compared to women in russia, where women VALUE interpersonal relationships and accept their feminine role in society. While western women value their education and respect themselves as equal to a man
I have been in the PUA community for a while- didn't approach so many women like you, lol
but I did learn and tested many methods that are out there.
Most of the PUA community is bullshit - most PUA teachers are just trying to make money on broken men. Some of the PUA stuff might help you to become more social but for the most part:
The guys that are getting constant results with the PUA stuff are either: very good looking, rich or both...
I have not met many avrage looking guys who are not rich who had results from the PUA stuff. And even the little results that they got- was after they put so much work into it (like approaching 1000+ women) And even when they got 'lucky' it didn't lead to a relationship.
The Big truth is: a lot of the PUA teachers are not getting laid themselves (or at least not as much as they say on their sales pages). And the so called 'seduction Gurus' who have good results are usually good looking or have social value or money and that is what gets them laid: not so much the techniques and routines they teach....
Take Brent and Zan for example: these guys have some good insights and ideas and I have learned a few good things from them. But if you look closer at it- Brent is very good looking and rich. Zan is great looking and has a lot of women in his social circle because he does workshops for women. I think he also has money because he travels a lot...
I didn't hear of many avrage looking guys who don't have much money or social status getting success with the Zan or Brent method. And I mention Zan and Brent because these guys are closer to 'natural game'. Again, they have some good insights about dating and life in general - but not many avrage guys had women all over them when they followed their advise........
I agree with Russian part, but TOTALLY disagree on the "equal to man". WTF is that equality crap? Men and women are different genders, men are more physically developed (stronger) than women, however women live longer due to some hormones etc. But why in the hell should there be "equality"? There should not be equality at all! Never ever ever! Please understand - there should be equal rights, but NOT EQUALITY! Men should be men, women should be women and enjoy themselves and not blend the genders as it happens today!
Do you think Russian girls don't value their education or don't respect themselves as "equal to man"? There are way more Russian girls in Universities than in the U.S. percentage wise. If you consider tenderness, softness, femininity, support, romance, love, emotions, honesty, attachment, complete unity of a couple being a sign of weakness or self-disrespect, I have no words.
i didn't mean equal as in "equality" but equal as in "equal rights"
hence the feminism in the united states. IF you don't believe me, then go to a major city(san francisco, Los angeles, new york) a lot of the women there are feminist/man hating women with big egos.
I never said "russian women value education less"
i just claimed that russian women value interpersonal relationships more and are more feminine.
10 years ago, the PUA community used to be underground but now; the market is so over saturated that most of it is in-fact bullshit. Many instructors sell "false hope" and claim you will be that guy that dates lots of women.
There is no magic pill in pickup. YOu still have to put on the work... That's no different from telling a guy "go out enough, approach enough girls, and there happens to be a woman interested" that's the same results I've gotten when I applied those PUA theories. I just approached enough girls and I'm bound to eventually get a date.
agreed, from my experience the guys who got good in PUA were ALREADY good looking guys or ALREADY good with women, all they need is to approach enough girls to get the success they need. Then they claim "PUA" helped them, even though they just approached "MORE" and got "MORE" results.
but your right, if you are already rich/good looking, you have a better shot than a guy who's anti-social and ugly. When all things are equal, the guy w/ money+looks will have an easier chance with the guy who's ugly/poor. THIS IS ALSO SUBJECTIVE ON WHAT KIND OF WOMAN YOU APPROACH.
never heard of zan and brent, but i'm sure they get girls b/c they are already naturally confident and have attractive lifestyle.
Still, you cannot teach a guy who's not confident and who's not good looking and who doesn't have an attractive lifestyle the same success. IT JUST DOESN'T WORK. THe only way you can help a guy is to tell him "approach enough girls, use this pickup liine and out of 1,000 approaches, u are bound to get laid"
overrall, i pretty much agreed with you, I just +ADDED+ something to ure post
thx for the reply fox
This might sound crazy but this used to work for me: The Direct Approach! When i was younger and stupid i would just walk up to the hottest women and just tell her "Your hot can i hit it?"
This worked alot as most american women are loose and easy. It really does not work when your looking for a relationship.
Most of them would let me screw them that night! When you have confidence aka swag you can get much sex.
I'm surprised I didn't see this post earlier. Sexter is/was a regular contributor to a PUA forum on casanovacrew.com which is a "lair" for pickup guys in the southern CA area. I used to listen to the site owners podcast (J the Ripper) occasionally. There's some good info on that site at times because a lot of them are really active in the club/pickup scene. Quite a few are the real deal and what Sexter says isn't entirely wrong but definitely pessimistic.
He's right in saying the PUA scene is oversaturated but I feel PUA still has its uses. It takes awkward shy guys and gives them a very basic social skills foundation to work on. For people who are handsome, etc.. it works wonders but for average to below average guys it has very low diminishing returns. Everything he says about this is true.
I personally wouldn't put down any real money for "bootcamps" and the like but I disagree with some people on this forum that PUA is a scam. I think it does work because it's just teaching basic skills but it is catering more towards english speaking western women. I have noticed that the more "westernized" a woman is the more she responds to PUA stuff.
edit: Btw Sexter, if you have the time you should fly to Thailand and go to some of the beach parties/resort islands. It's probably 10x easier for you there than in the U.S. as well and it's such a big international gathering point there's a lot of opportunities there for a single guy to have fun. Plus social groups there are fluid and it's not hard to hook up with European girls if that's your thing.
Personally, I still like the asian girls far more.
Good to see someone stand-up a bit for PU concept. It is not worthless as a lot of the guys are suggesting.
Sure, a lot of greedy so-called gurus have jumped on the bandwagon to make a fast buck while offering nothing of value. But some of the pioneers did help a lot of guys. And when PU was newer (10, 15, even 20 years ago if you count Don Steele), it probably worked better because it was unknown and therefore could make a guy come-off as 'special'. Today, if you do any of the standard stuff in the States, a lot of girls will see right through it.
The biggest benefit of PU is that it gets guys to become better versions of themselves - to develop social skills, to dress right, to work-out, and most importantly, to approach. It also teaches techniques to keep the ball rolling once you get started dating. And I can tell you that it does help a lot in Asia. Why? Because it demands lots of approachs. Even if many girls here (I'm in Thailand right now BTW) find you attractive, its entirely possible that you seldom if ever get approached by girls. You may get smiles or occasional flirting directed your way. But if you don't assume an active role, you will not even come close to reaching your full potential - both volume and quality wise.
Case in point. A few years ago, I was bouncing around China with 2 friends - one a good-looking 190 cm blond Scandinavian dude and the other a short and funny looking Jewish American guy. The Scandi was quiet, stand-offish, and generally passive towards strangers while the American was aggressive like a machine approaching anyone he found attractive about everywhere we went. His actual technique was not very impressive or smooth. But in China, just knocking on the door is often enough to achieve social interaction with your target(s) and eventually close the deal. The short guy dated girls out of his league and got lots of action on that long trip. The good-looking guy got very little.
If you cherry-pick from PU theory, it can be very valuable overseas. For example, acting too needy or available seems to turn-off girls almost everywhere. Its something that needs to be unlearned by a lot of guys. But if you develop a manly persona and act like someone who is special and has social value, the results can be outstanding. As an American, you can pull this off in many countries with a fair amount of work and preparation. Not so in the States where you need some sort of serious edge to be credible.
Interesting and true! I have met TONS of scandinavians because one of my pastimes is diving and I go to the "swedish hells" often and meet lots of the nordic kids. They are definitely odd and standoffish initially but awesome when you get to know them, perverse, and hilarious. I think Jewish-American guys have a similar mentality that a lot of asian-americans have..everything is based on scarcity. You either approach or you just sit at home and jack off. So a lot of guys just say "f**k it" and approach every girl. I spent some time on Koh Tao and it was ridiculous. I was probably one of the only asian guys around that was westernized and there were a lot of girls who were very receptive to that. I had fun , lots of aussies, irish, and other "anglo" girls were just down to have fun. I'm not that buff and not that handsome but I think set and setting means a lot. If you, scandinavian dude, and a jew were traveling around China that elicits all sorts of buying temperature right there. Sometimes, in places where it's not hicksville USA, it pays to be a fish out of the water.
True, it's still down to perception. But I think there are some just some places in the world where people let down their pretensions and go with experimentation and bonding. Thailand has a few places like that, probably India, and others...
There are a lot of guys in Thailand who puff their chests out daily now though. If you go to the nightclub scene (especially on Thonglor) it's remarkably pretentious and not unlike what you would find elsewhere except the ratio of hot women to guys is still like 5:3 at the minimum.
I think you missed my point. You are comparing PUA to countries like "china/thailand" not PUA in the united states
try using PUA in the united states. Sure, it gets you to approaching women, but the diminishing returns is very minimal. You literally have to approach hundreds of sets to get a result. Compared to cold approaching overseas, you get obvious resutls b/c the women are less feminized and have less egos, and are conditioned in a way for them to "LIKE/respect MEN"
if you don't believe me, do it yourself. Go to any busy spot in LA/SF/NY and cold approach. Expect to get blown out a lot or get a lot of flakey numbers.
I think we are arguing on different spectrums. MY POINT OF THIS TOPIC IS PUA IN THE UNITED STATES, NOT PUA OVERSEAS.
no pessimism involved at all.
i opened up to 5 thousand girls in my life. I STAYED POSITIVE THE WHOLE TIME HOPING I WOULD GET THE RESULTS I DESERVED, BUT NOPE NEVER GOT THERE.
i only developed my realist view on PUA "AFTER" not "BEFORE" the 5 thousand approaches. I don't have a pessmistic view on PUA, i just have a realistic view.
sure, you might get "dates" or "make outs" or girls who are "ALREADY INTO YOU" but you have to approach enough girls to get those results.
compare those nubmers to places like "russia/philippines/china" you will see a big difference
thanks for the solution repatriate that I should go overseas and cold approach... PUA in united states IMO is nearly useless and a waste of time. IF YOU DON'T MIND GETTING BLOWN OUT after hundreds of approaches then PUA is for you.
I never tried it in the States. But if it gets guys to look and dress better and become more social, that should count for something even if they never get 1 on 1 dates or any sex.
But my real point is using a combination strategy to maximize results - learn decent PU skills and go abroad - to reach your full potential. If you just go abroad with lousy social skills - weak confidence and introversion - its quite possible you will continue to do poorly. In most countries or at least all the ones I've been to, women do not chase you down the street. Winston's comparison chart is an idealized exaggeration. Women overseas don't just fall into your lap and in some countries, they are just as difficult if not worse than Americans.