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There's 'fact' and then there's 'reality'. Does that sound contradictory? It's not.
I wanted to write a post to answer a question that's come up from my recent interview with Steve Hoca, "Why do you say the dating ratio is so one-sided overseas and here? Is it really 2 to 1?".
Let's begin with the facts and reality of the dating scene at home. Statistically, there are nearly the same amount of males and females living in the United States. So why does it feel like a sausage fest everywhere you go? Your reality is based on your personal experience. AND, there are VERY REAL REASONS for this discrepancy and I think it's worth a conversation.
In that interview with Steve we talked about the dating scene overseas and how it is a direct contrast to the dating scene here. One of the points of the conversation had to do with how the reality of our experience is that there seems to be 2 men for every 1 eligible woman in the US. Is our experience based on numerical facts? No.
But there are statistical reasons to back up the perceived reality of our personal experience. For example, and this is just one example of many, we know that men are visual and prefer to pursue more physically attractive women among a scene of strangers (bar scene for example). In the US, however, nearly 2/3 of the population is either overweight or obese. That is not as much a problem for men as it is for women. Men can use personality attributes to overcome a weight issue and still have a shot at any woman. Therefore, you have a majority of the male population pursuing that 1/3 of the female population. The reality of your experience is supported - it's not just you.
There probably are 2 men pursuers for every 1 attractive woman. I'd read a Men's Health and Fitness article that stated that attractive women in the dating scene are hit on or flirted with 15 times per day on average. Others have said it can be as much as 10 times per hour when out in public. Either way, the statistics are that the US has just as many men as women - but your reality in the dating is scene is quite tilted in the attractive woman's advantage - it makes sense.
What about the experience overseas? The women in Latin America and Eastern Europe, where I dated, had repeatedly said to me that they feel like there are 2 women for every 1 eligible man (I'd welcome feedback from those of you who've dated in Asia as well). Is their perception based on fact? No, but many of the developing nations are leaning toward higher female populations. In my book I site an article from MSN Health & Fitness titled "Are Boys an Endangered Species?" that documents how some regions of the world are giving birth to twice as many females as males due to pollutants. Other nations will say that wars have taken their toll on the male populous, which is what I heard a lot from women in Eastern Europe. What are the actual statistics? There are more females than males to the tune of 10% to 15% of the populations of many developing nations. Based on fact alone, there may be 5 to 15 million more women than men in any of these countries.
But what is the reality for women in dating scenes overseas? If feels much more dramatic because the rarer commodity is finding the good marriage-minded man. Men don't feel any need or hurry to settle down. They enjoy playing the field. The Russian government has been paying couples to get married and then more for having a child. Why? Their population growth rate is in decline. So, the first issue with finding a good marriage-minded man is that they can play the field and don't want to settle down. The second reason it is hard to find a good man has to do with how they deal with life. There aren't many economic opportunities for a better future, so alcoholism and chain smoking is almost the norm. Chico State has nothing on them!
What's the result of this reality for women overseas? They expect to have to work all of their life because they do not believe there will be a man who will stay with them. They will most likely raise a child as a single parent - living with a mother or grandmother. They will regularly go through various men who will date them for a while before moving on. If they do marry, they know that their husbands cheat - they just hope they are discrete about it. Please remember that most women will never sign up for an international dating agency. Even if there were 30k Russian women signed up with dating agencies, that is a drop in the bucket compared to the general population of single women. Even among those on the dating sites, most will never go on a face-to-face date with a foreign man. For them, the international dating agency route is not a cause for genuine hope, but more like buying a lottery ticket.
The purpose of this post was to answer a few who heard my interview and questioned whether there really were 2 women for every man overseas statistically. No, but ask any woman overseas and she'll tell you that she feels like there is. Similarly, most guys in the US will tell you it feels like it's just the opposite here. There are very valid reasons for both to feel this way - and reasons why we are so good for each other!
Thanks for listening. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
P.S.: Check out Steve's interview with me listed on the HappierAbroad.com home page.
P.P.S.: There is a second part of that interview with Steve coming soon that also features my wife, Anna. She is a no b.s. pragmatist and her perspective on women overseas always captivates. Be looking for that link soon!
Excellent clarification!! This all now makes so much more sense. Thanks.
PS- can't wait for the 2nd interview. Having a foreign lady's perspective will add a ton of credibility to what the real situation is from the ladies perspective to counter the ignorant stereotypes that keep so many guys from considering this alternative.
Here is information breaking it down by age group for single men and single women ratios. This is a list for non-married whites in the US. Again, single men outnumber single women IN ALL AGE GROUPS. No wonder why it's so hard for men to meet women in America, THERE IS A REAL SHORTAGE OF SINGLE WOMEN IN THE USA!
You can check out more info on these male to female ratios here: http://www.halfsigma.com/malefemale_ratio/ On this site, scroll down the page to see all the figures for ratios, by city, state and age group.
ages 18-20, 52.1% unmarried men 4,048,871, 47.9% unmarried women 3,719,306
ages 21-24, 54.1% unmarried men 4,412,950, 45.9% unmarried women 3,747,934
ages 25-28, 55.4% unmarried men 3,073,705, 44.6% unmarried women 2,472,222
ages 29-32, 56.1% unmarried men 2,014,546, 43.9% unmarried women 1,574,294
ages 33-36, 55.0% unmarried men 1,836,492, 45.0% unmarried women 1,504,618
ages 37-40, 53.7% unmarried men 1,789,844, 46.3% unmarried women 1,544,026
Thanks for posting those stats. That is just MORE validation for why things are so one-sided here.
I saw a post on a travel site yesterday that claimed that the women in Brazil outnumber men 3 to 1. Although it isn't a population statistic, if you've been to the clubs in Rio that is certainly the ratio you'll find!
For those who haven't traveled overseas to meet women - you need to do it. It really is a paradise!
I just listened to an advanced copy of the interview recording from Part II that included my wife. Dude, this is the best interview on international dating I've ever heard from anyone! Wait until you hear what Anna has to say! I'm sure it will be up in the next day or two.
In some circumstances I think the men of the poorer nations are trying to emigrate to richer ones or at least working overseas on visas, in order to make a real wage. Whereas the women in each country pretty much just sit back and take their jobs locally, since they arent required to be primary breadwinners anyway.
There was an article a couple of years ago stating that women outnumber men in Lebanon by 5 to 1. Then you find out that the men there go to other Arab states to make money, while the women are slutting around with rich guys and foreigners.
I just uploaded your new interview with your wife Mark. It was great! Now we get the foreign woman's perspective too! SUPER! I think I will put this one on YouTube as well. For now though, here is the link to it for the folks here to listen to it:
You can find the link to the first interview on the home page or in the thread in the announcements board.
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
The claims of seven women to one man, or five women to one man ( or vice versa) can only be taken hyperbolically. There is no such thing on Earth except if you are talking about a female prison with several male guards. At the most, it is like 45 men for every 55 women in a country and that is already too high. The exceptions are when you talk about temporary male workers such as in Kuwait or Saudi but even then you will never have five men for every woman.
The other thing about "developing" countries is the fact that women there expect a man to be a financial provider ( a debt of honor to any man) which poor men bristle at but those guys with a solid income will be very happy to accept. That basically means that if you can support a girl, she is yours. That has been the case for over a million years. Men supported, defended and took care of women and in exchange these gave them beauty, sex, family and lots of love. In those nations many women would be happy with $300-500 a month and you can be ugly, old, fat, bald, as long as you are kind and can fulfill your financial responsibility, that's all there is to it. If you are young(ish) but on a limited budget, you may not like it. But wait till you get older and pass 50 and have some money and are single. In your overdeveloped nation you will only be able to date 45 year old women but not in the 'normal' world. You will be awfully glad that the traditional system is still there and you can get all the young ladies you want provided you can provide for them financially. It's nice to be 55 and have one or if you can afford, a couple of 18-22 year old girlfriend(s). She(they) will love you to death!
Money and profit are dirty words for those who have never made any!
Last edited by ladislav on September 24th, 2010, 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!
Totally agree with Lad on the ratio issue. I've spent considerable time in a lot of countries including several with the hypothetical 5 girls for every 1 guy ratio. I remember some of the gringo "Colombia Hands" trying to rationalize it saying most of the local guys got killed in violence, the civil war, or more mundane things like traffic accidents. Yea, right. Wherever I go, the ratios are within reason (ie no more than 60/40 in favor of males at best) unless its at a nursing college or another similar type of venue. Your right Lad, no place in the world I know of has 5, 3, or even 2 girls for every guy. That's the type of hype dating and marriage agencies like to throw around to get you excited.
But perhaps the guy/girl balance doesn't matter as much anyway. There's a host of other factors which are critical to the dating climate. For example, China should be one of the worst places on the planet for us guys based on the numbers. But actually, I would put it in the top 5 to 10 for finding available quality women.
As for the 55 yr. old due easily finding a couple of 18-22 year old girlfriends who love him to death, I hope its true. But are you just talking about the backwoods and mountain villages of Phils or is such a scenario possible in more developed areas like Ukraine and other CIS countries? What places in the world do you think this can easily happen?
Awesome question, Rock. Many of these girls will follow older men for various reasons. Some will go for the "protector-provider" male regardless of age or looks, as ladislav described. The age gap is more common to be 10- to 15 years in Latin America and Eastern Europe. 20 years or more in parts of Asia - and that includes the men they marry from their own countries. They tend to prefer men who stronger/older figures anyway - all they usually hope for is the "protector-provider" model for marriage.
However, there is a dynamic most guys are missing - Romantic Attention. These women are not courted or romanced by local men. They are pursued for quick sex and short term relationships - and the women never feel that there was genuine interest in them as a person. They are not pursued romantically, yet they see what that looks like in every American movie that comes to town.
To spend some time with one of them, take them out, be curious to get to know them - it will even feel awkward and foreign to them. But, her reaction would be similar to that of an American guy who was suddenly being idolized by a Swedish model! While your efforts to show genuine interest at home fall on egotistic deaf ears - they will never be more appreciated than they are abroad. And, yes, I'm talking about spending time with a sincere local girl, not a scammer. Sorting those out is not as difficult as you'd think, but the topic for another thread.
Romantic Attention was my secret weapon. I'm 47 years old married to a 22 year old former model - although you'd think she was older based on her life experience and maturity. These are not poor backwards jungle villagers. They have more college education than most of us. We went to the zoo, museum, and drives to the coast while in her country. I decided to create the storybook story for both of us. You'll find them to be eager and APPRECIATIVE participants. My wife will often tease me, "Yeah, I could have married for money, but I went for love. Darn love." The look of adoration in her eyes says it all.
For the record, when we met I thought she was in her mid-twenties and she thought I was in my mid-thirties. She wouldn't tell me her age for a few months because she thought it would blow me out of the water - and it might have if I hadn't gotten to know her better. I was not on the hunt for a teenager - but I knew what kind of person I was looking for and what it would feel like to interact with her and be with her.
I encourage you to listen to the interview with Anna, me and Steve: http://www.happierabroad.com/podcasts/Mark_Anna_Interview.mp3
Listen to her side of the story.
It doesn't have to be about rich guys buying young girls. Write your own story - just go!
1. I already listened to your interview, downloaded your ebook into my Kindle and am reading through it now. I left US a long time ago while I was still a kid and I only go back for visits. So it is like a foreign country to me, especially its social and dating world. Iâ€™ve had an awesome dating life â€˜abroadâ€™ so far and have remained unmarried by choice.
2. Just a clarification. Americans have a tendency, like many Chinese and nationals of certain other nations, to view the rest of the world as â€˜abroadâ€™. They speak as if there are 2 countries in the world â€“ homeland and abroad. This is a gross and often misleading generalization. Believe it or not, there are countries out there with women who may be even more challenging to date than Americans. Try dealing with girls in Israel or even Japan for instance.
3. When it comes to age gaps, my rough yardstick is to gauge whether or not the pair looks like a plausible coupling; at least with Latin and presumably CIS women. A healthy youthful looking 40 something like yourself does not look very strange with your mature looking early 20s wife. But a very out of shape, pale, and generally unattractive mid 30s dude does not seem to be a credible match for a baby faced 25 year old beauty. Ditto for a 5'6" Japanese guy with a voluptuous 5'9" Slave just 5 years his junior. Basically, I put myself in the girls shoes and imagine it from her perspective. Iâ€™ve seen refreshing exceptions to this rule of thumb among my own friends so itâ€™s not perfect. But Iâ€™d say itâ€™s a good indication. Even though you donâ€™t need to be above average looking, you also should not look like a disaster compared to her or appear old enough to be her grandfather. Attempting to romance her under such conditions would not be taken seriously. Do you agree?
4. I donâ€™t know for sure about CIS, but from what I observed in Brazil and Colombia, the stylish and buff local guys were actually popular with most of the best looking girls, especially for the solid middle class and above. Girls who gravitated towards garden variety North American gringos tended to be OK but certainly not the cream. They were either poorer, older, and/or had children. However, the few foreigners I saw who truly localized (I saw cases in Brazil but not Colombia) and looked like they fit in also had better luck with the higher quality. Young and attractive foreigners did pretty well too. At many levels, I think Latins, especially Brazilians, are very much into looks and style. I really did not see a lot of couples with big age gaps there other than in P4P arenas. What parts of Brazil did you hang-out in and did you observe a different dynamic? Same questions for Colombia.
The Philippines definitely leads the way. Thailand and Vietnam are not far behind. I have also seen guys who were 60+ and got 20+ girls in China.
And not only in the mountain Philippine villages which are actually quite modern with cellphones, color TVs and karaokes. The Philippines now is not what it was in the 1970ies. It is a modern Asian nation now.
Mostly it is Asia where it is possible to do that. The RP of course leads the way. It is also possible in Russia and Latin America provided you look young.
I would like to paraphrase the famous proverb- "you are only as old as you feel".
No, you are only as old as you ' look'.
If you are 55 and want women to love you for more than just your money, make sure you are not fat or bald and try and work on your wrinkles as well as your overall behavior to shave off 15-18 years which is very possible in this day and age. Stallone and Tom Cruise would have no problems with younger ladies even in the West but they are famous. In the non Western world we are already Tom Cruises and Stallones so we should try and look like them as much as possible to extend the period of at least some physical attraction.
I am 50 now. I got new teeth and new hair some years ago and I have some young ladies in my dating pool who are within the young age category. They look for a guy like me to help them out with school and work expenses as well as good times in general. Younger guys do not have the money or the time to take them out and/or help them.
So, basically, it is South East Asia, followed by the usual other places. The poorer, the more racially mixed, the better.
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!
Thank you - did you listen to the one with my wife? I'd love to hear your thoughts. Also, could you go to the discussion forum page about the book and provide some of your thoughts on it. You have a unique perspective and I'd appreciate it.
You are totally correct. Everyone lives in their world of "normal life is life in my country". My wife thought the Ukraine was superior to America in many ways - although she'd rather raise a family here.
I see this a lot - and my wife has also commented on it as well. Many of the foreign men who came to date her dressed and carried themselves like old men with no fashion who thought she should automatically be impressed with them just because they were from a foreign country or had money. So many approached her with the "I'm here to rescue you from your life here" attitude. Wow, the arrogance.
It's also just as insulting to not care about how you look. No matter how old, young, tall, fat, etc., there are ways you can always put your best forward. Rush Limbaugh and Oprah Winfrey may have been large people, but they put their best presentation forward and conveyed success. I also don't think someone should pursue an age group. You want to date attractive women - of course. You will find them. Making a huge age gap a top priority is like looking for a trophy wife. Pick one or the other - a trophy or a wife. You chose to stay single so you could enjoy one trophy after another. Good for you. For those who do want to marry, it is exactly as you said - do they seem natural being together? - are they a good couple? Common interests are more important than age.
I hung out in Manaus and Rio. I mostly dated women I met at the public clubs. Yes, the women would prefer a handsome man close to their age from their own country - and those men are not sleeping alone at night. I just continually heard about the unfaithfulness. It doesn't mean they won't give the handsome guy a shot! They'd love to be the lucky one who beat the odds. There are those in Brazil (especially Brazil) who are so hot that they have a male following like hot women do here. All I have to say is that I spent three days with one who was a feature in Penthouse Brazil just the year prior. She was 24 and I was 41 at the time. She's the blonde showing off in this photo with me just behind her (yes, I've been shallow in my dating in the past - I have no regrets): http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/_lsrUs8VDdG1nVYY3utFYqHSKtyX0XR9mSVCwALK4TI?feat=directlink
Not sure what else I can add to that.
Dude, I'm glad you've worked on the new you and found the fountain of youth. One more testimonial that it's better overseas!
Listened to both interviews before my last response to you. I often listen to Steve's interviews just as soon as they are posted. Your wife sounds mature for her age and unique. I suspect she's not a typical Ukrainian, more of an independent free thinker type with her own strong ideas. I find a handful of girls like this almost everywhere I travel. I believe only a small percentage of 18 year olds are emotionally and psychologically prepared for long term marriage to a much older foreigner. If the girl is early to mid 20s or older when she makes this step, I think it helps a lot. And remember, my reference point is NOT the States, its many other regions and countries in the world. Correct me you think I am wrong.
I will respond on that thread when I finish the book. I've also downloaded the 2 books you recommended on masculinity. So far, your approach and attitude seems similar to some of the PUA and dating gurus (David DeAngelo and some others). I fully agree with that even though this particular forum is fairly anti-PUA. Perhaps USA is so challenging that even a real man is not enough. But in some countries, I do believe the training and attitude can help a lot.
What I meant was, I wish Steve and others would stop talking about 'girls abroad' and 'girls overseas'. It just comes across as naive and way to simplistic, as if all girls in the US are monsters and all girls anywhere else are angels. If that's the thinking, someone is going to suffer major disillusion. Some countries overseas give American guys a handicap, that's all. The size of that handicap depends on numerous variables - some are related to the guy and some the destination. And a few countries actually have a 'negative handicap' (ie more difficult than States) for some guys. For example, I remember Roosh V, a 20 something average looking American guy talking about having a tougher time pulling casual sex in Argentina than in some US cities.
I don't tend to seek the trophy girl. I have somewhat off-center taste and have sometimes passed up more mainstream beauties who made themselves available for a girl who was closer to my specs. I am more attracted to very youthful looking tall and curvy to slightly overweight girls who may just rate 5 to 8 by mainstream American white guy standards than the very slim photo model 9s. Given my taste, I wanted to get some of your insight on the age issue which you gave above. Thanks.
BTW, there's one guy I noticed in the video at one of the socials dancing alone. He looks very diminutive and has a funny part bald head with hair around the sides. If he looks the way I think he does, its hard to imagine him, for example, having success at finding a sincere long term wife unless he set his sights on 35-40+ yr. old mothers.
Good pull on the Penthouse gal. From what I hear, Manaus is a touristy party town. Girls are good for short-term fun but not as bridal prospects, with some exceptions of course. In fact, Brazil in general gives me this impression. If you wanna marry a Brasileira, you better spend some time there and localize. I don't see the quick hook-up marriage agencies there like I do in Colombia. BTW, last I checked, AFA had an office in Cartegena. And in Cali, I met guys who had done a social there. From what I could see, there is a marriage agency circuit there. The same girls gravitate around several agencies and attend the AFA social. I think the agency approach (including AFA) is better than socials if you have a bit of time. Its a lot cheaper and you can get all the info from the profiles/photos and then narrow according to your own specs. At socials, you got limited time to find the girls you think you might like and you don't know their details until you talk to them for awhile. The guys who had done the socials who I talked to did not think if was good value for money. But Colombia is probably a lot more user friendly than CIS countries.
Dude, I'm glad you've worked on the new you and found the fountain of youth. One more testimonial that it's better overseas!
Reminds me of that story I read about a specific species of deer. The females were primarily concerned with the size of the male antlers, but interest turned to obsession, as the female mind is wont to do when the standard of living goes too high.
So of the 100 male and 100 female deer, ALL 100 of the females wanted ONLY the ONE male deer with the biggest set of antlers antlers. A shallow gene pool, 99 pissed off male deer and 100 sexually frustrated female deer and ONE over-sexed male deer that falls over dead at age 4.
Not sure if the particular species wound up going extinct, but its a damn good analogy for modern Western culture. Me? I just stepped out of the little envelope society provided for me and found myself a female that is 500% better than anything I could find locally.
Now I sit back and watch the looks of amazement on the faces of all the guys around me.
You also have to consider age of women too I think. I know it is rarer to see older men in America with younger women than many places over seas but it still happens a lot. Good looking women in the 18-30s age range are the prime targets of men who are 18 to almost dead. Unless they look really good single older women are ignored for the most part. I also ignore single moms as well. I learned very quickly they are usually a lot of drama and always put their kid (rightly so) ahead of you. Affluence makes it worse too I'd imagine. Most women in the US don't need a man for money. I'm too lazy to try and research statistics but it could very well be 2:1 or worse.