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Is College a Ripoff and Scam? 20/20 ABC News

Discuss and talk about any general topic.

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Postby NorthAmericanguy » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:34 am

ssjparris wrote:wow you always put meaningful stuff on here winston can't wait to meet you. like does attract like after all. Anyways, the school system just plain sucks balls big time. ALOT OF college grads are going into the military here in the USA. why ? because they can't find jobs.


Yea, and that's not a good move either because they inject you with a whole bunch of experimental vaccines (many have been disabled because of it) and once you're out, whatever skills you learned are not useful for civilian use.

Case in point, I just met a military guy who can tell you all about wiring systems for military airplanes, but to feed his family at 30 years of age (+or-) he's working at a fast food restaurant.
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Postby NorthAmericanguy » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:50 am

zzzz wrote:The problem is college education is so academic and not at all related to job skills. Many degrees require calculus for instance which is unlikely to be used by many jobs. Hell, most professors can't even explain how you'd use it in the real world except in the vaguest of terms. This applies to almost all subjects, not just calculus. College is a business. Most professors teach one subject and just a few or one class. After taking a class the students themselves (assuming they got As or Bs) are probably smart enough to teach the class to someone else, especially if it was their full time job. Many teacher assistants teach classes without even having taken it themselves or understanding the material. This is even most likely to happen at big name schools where the famous professors focus on writing and research not teaching. It really is a bunch of bullshit.

That all said you pretty much do need a degree now unless you have special connections or are tough and smart enough to start your own business. Certain colleges also really do help with jobs. Names are probably more important than what you learn once you get a degree. Graduating from Duke will have lot of pull even if people from Boise State got a better education (probably not true but just a random example). Most resumes aren't even considered unless they meet certain requirements such as a Bachelor's Degree. Anyone who is in HR can tell you just how many damn resumes any open job today receives due to the internet. They might get 1500 and select only 5 to interview.

In my view college should either be free or you don't pay for it until you land a job and can afford to pay them back. The worst schools are the private for profit schools they shouldn't even exist. College in America is pretty f***ed up.


I agree with your post, but in regards to starting your own business, it's not hard, and you don't need to be ''smart". The key is picking the right business that is PIRATICAL, such as some type of cleaning service, hair care service, dog walking, or something food related. A business that helps people loose weight is another good one.

These "educational institutions" fool people, they make it seem like you need business degree, a business plan, and all of wall street backing you (IPO's)in order for you to be a success. It's a lie.
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Postby NorthAmericanguy » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:54 am

Just adding more information to this post. This man is the expert in understanding how Effed up the educational system is.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ogCc8ObiwQ




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKci3_cm ... re=related

These are some of the comments to the above video:

"The value of something you taught yourself, or that you were taught by a friend or loved one, is very high. The value of something you were taught in institutionalised learning is practically zero."

"Hands up who remembers anything useful from school? No one? Well how can that be, you spent almost a quarter of your life sitting in class rooms. As this man so eloquently put it - schools are irrelevant. They act as little more than baby sitters, so the children's parents can work and pay taxes."



"The institutionalized mind runs on a baseline of fear and apathy. Organic learning creates self actualized human beings that are of independent thought and impossible to control or manipulate."



"The entire concept of "education" in a modern sense, is based on huge and fallacious, but sadly, widely accepted assumptions. The Government tries to instill a Protestant, "nose to the grindstone" work ethic in everyone, mainly to increase work productivity and thus keep the capitalist machine running smoothly. But is it really worth forsaking your own individuality and creativity for a lifetime of passivity?"
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Postby NorthAmericanguy » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:35 am

momopi wrote:The basic value of a college degree, like many other things in life, is dependent on supply and demand.

Back when it was difficult to pass the national college entrance exam, getting a college education was a big deal in East Asian countries. If you graduated from a national college, it means good job, good career, and good marriage prospects.

Moving forward to the 1990s, in Taiwan the government de-regulated the college system, and many trade schools converted to 4-year colleges. Suddenly there was an over-supply of college-educated workforce. So now you have to go abroad and get a master's degree to be ahead of others. Having a 4-year college degree is now a basic requirement for many jobs, just like the US.

China is about 20 years behind TW, back in 1989 only 2% of HS students went to college, which made the Tienanmen Square protest a far bigger impact on China's leadership and society than western countries, where college education was more prevalent. But today in China there's a large surplus of college educated workforce, so college education no longer guaranteed a good life.

If you want to improve the value of a college degree, you make it harder to obtain and reduce the number of college-educated workforce. If you disagree with the current college education subjects and think the solution is to simply change it, that will not alter the fundamental supply and demand valuation. Lowering the barriers to higher education produces a benefit, but that benefit is not without cost. Like they say freedom is not free and there is no free lunch. If you're not paying upfront, you'd pay for it later.

Speaking as a former 5th grade teacher, I think the US education system is too easy. Parents use schools as a babysitting service, dumping >30 kids per teacher and hope for the best. Duh? IMO secondary schools should teach more practical skills like how to drive a truck, fix a computer, balance your checkbook, negotiate contracts, home-making, cooking, and so on. We also need better apprenticeship program for professional trade and craftsman. In France and Japan, becoming a chef is a lengthy process from school to apprenticeship. In the US we pump out sushi chefs after 6 months from California Sushi Academy. If you ever wonder why the local sushi place prefer to sell maki, it's because the guy lacks the skill to make good nigiri.


Itamae-san (master chef) training for sushi chefs

Traditional sushi-chef training takes about 10 years of instruction under a master. In old days the apprentice enters at high school age, and if proven to have talent, becomes a chef by mid 20’s. These days the apprentice usually start after high school (unless family restaurant) and the length of apprenticeship may be shorter, but it still take years to become a good chef.

An apprentice (minarai) starts by doing basic kitchen chores and learn by observation for few years. After a while he is taught how to gut fish and cook sushi rice properly. If he doesn’t exhibit any decent skills, this is where he’d stay, with pay below or equal to the serving staff. This is also where you’d find the restaurant owner’s friend’s kid and the daughter’s boyfriend/husband with no job skills, washing rice in the back and kept out of the customer’s view.

If the apprentice shows skill, he is allowed to work in the front as shimoita (â€￾below the boardâ€￾), an assistant to the sushi chef. This stage typically take 3 years, where he’d learn how to use various Sashimi hōchō & other knives properly. Knife skill is very important as it impacts the quality and texture of the nigiri. At this stage the apprentice is not allowed to make sushi for the customer without supervision, though he could make other stuff that require less skill, such as cut rolls and hand rolls. At this stage he is paid at or above the server’s wages.

If the student chef is good enough, he’s promoted to nakaita (â€￾middle boardâ€￾) where he is allowed to make sushi for the customers without supervision. At this stage he is paid about twice the server’s wages or better. The skill level of chefs at this stage can vary widely, from barely acceptable to very good. Foreign sushi chefs who didn’t receive “proper trainingâ€￾ but learned through years of experience may be evaluated at nakaita level by their Japanese peers.

A properly trained nakaita, after years of experiences, may attain the status of Itamae-San. A popular master chef can make 6 figures from salary and tips, and get a cut from the sushi bar’s daily bill. At this stage he may also open his own sushi bar and train apprentice.


Excellent post. And I agree that we need to bring back apprenticeship. I learned my trade from a man and I then when off on my own and started my own business. I now want to learn another skill, just for fun, and that would be building race engines but I digress.
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Postby Jackal » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:22 pm

ladislav wrote:Student loans can be quickly paid off by a stint in Saudi/Kuwait or Iraq.

In the US and later Japan/Thailand they dragged out for 15 years, then I went to Saudi and poof, they were gone in 18 months.

Really? How did you manage that? Were you an ordinary English teacher at a state-run high school or did you work at private language schools?

What is the average monthly salary of an English teacher in Kuwait?
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Postby Winston » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:07 pm

Check out TheLogicJunkie's rant about college. He notes how much better community colleges are, which concurs with my experience too.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHjlhIZq2Tc[/youtube]

Here he describes why universities are like death camps. It's a bit over the top, but has a lot of truth in it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duaUJKBhd3Q[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIYixXTvy24[/youtube]
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College is for Morans!

Postby odbo » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:49 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R3n74RKqHg[/youtube]

A previous discussion on this I found was excellent:
http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9488
(career in academics)
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Postby C.J. » Sun May 01, 2011 12:34 am

OMG!

I was actually planning on going to college too! But money is always a factor. And since I was never really a wageslave, I wasn't eligible for most, if not all financial aid. :(

And the job market sucks ass too! You NEED connections, and experience to get even a basic, even-a-monkey-can-do-this job. Or you need to speak Spanish.

Nobody's willing to train employees even for A WEEK anymore.
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Postby odbo » Sun May 01, 2011 7:00 am

go to trade school or community college to get qualifications. if you have skills (you said you're into programming/game design) try to be your own boss! or get hired at a start-up. ya there are a ton of independent games already, but there is VERY LITTLE originality. "University" is a waste of time & money for most people, especially with America ready to implode. Unless you're some 18 year old robotics prodigy, or a heartless f**k who only cares about money and is ready to settle for any soul-crushing career AFTER several years of schooling just to have a slightly above-average salary and succeed in keeping up appearances (a lot of modern women see this as their purpose in life).. then college is for you.

definitely go to college once, for a quarter/semester (a big community college also counts), so you know exactly what it is. the whole illusion of bettering self, when in reality you're paying to be fed bullshit and steadily being assimilated into the borg. :shock:
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Postby Winston » Sun May 01, 2011 1:41 pm

When I first went to community college in Fremont, CA back in 1992 at Ohlone College, the cost was only $6 a unit. And since each class was 3 or 4 units, if I took 4 classes a semester, that means 4 x 3 units = 12 units a semester which costs $6 x 12 units = $72 for a whole semester! It was incredibly cheap, and the school work was easy too. I should have just stayed there and not gone to the soulless Cal State University at Hayward, which was a boring robotic anti-social place.
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Postby Winston » Sun May 01, 2011 1:49 pm

Originally created by Samael Daval. He gives alternatives and examples of how to make a living without the use of going to college. Today, young to adults, even to the elderly are going back to school. For what? To give more money and less opportunity for a job? You're wasting your money when you could develop a skill and use it to make even more money than your professors.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPGHC6y8K-w[/youtube]

College is an Evil Debt Trap

For so many wretched souls today, college is nothing more than an insanely expensive, dangling carrot of supposed "opportunity" that ultimately turns out to be an evil debt trap.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hOXtq_cF5I[/youtube]
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Postby The_Adventurer » Sun May 01, 2011 2:52 pm

Many great men of old and today never went to or finished college. Many billionaires have said something to the effect that, if you want your child to be a success in life, don't put him in school.

EDIT: And I'll add, this idea that you have to be some super genius or prodigy to start a business and be successful is just what they want you to think. I remember reading about guy with a 9th grade education, who eventually studied under Earl Nightingale. What was his multi-million dollar idea? An Office Cleaning Service which he started with himself, a mop and a bucket. Before long he expanded to have employees, then expanded to other cities, and eventually even other countries. It became huge.

One of my business coaches showed me the story of a guy who made his millions selling candy. Another guy I read about loved working with his hands, but had little education. He worked for a company doing building and contract work, and he was a great worker. Eventually he saw opportunities in dirty jobs other contractors didn't want to do. He took them and did them well and was on his way to his own business. He took his money and bought seemingly useless properties and then would build stuff on them and sell them for big money. Now he's super rich and works with his son, and even though he's older, he still likes being out there in the dirt working with his hands, because it is what he loves.

King Gillette got rich with his disposable razors, but no one was interested in them at the time, so he made them free. He made a killing selling the replacement blades. You can get rich in any business.

In my industry, being computer graphics and animation, there is an over supply of degreed students, but how many cn actually do the work? That's what people care about. Your demo reel gets you the job, no matter what is on your resume. Connections do matter too, though, especially in Hollywood. College does not help.
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Postby Winston » Sun May 01, 2011 3:33 pm

What about joining professional fraternities in college such as Pi Sigma Epsilon, the marketing fraternity? Do they really help you establish professional connections in your career?
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Postby C.J. » Sun May 01, 2011 3:35 pm

I guess that's why I got so skilled in programming.

I didn't go to college, but had a lot of free time on my hands after HS. So I dabbled with a lot of programs then, and one of the most influential was RPG Maker 2 for the PS2. Not only did the game teach me how to make 3D games, but it also helped me learn algebra(which is immensely useful for programming), functions, events, program flow and many other things. It helped me so much in fact, that it made switching between languages and porting codebases very easy, because I knew how to handle different situations which were independent of the language I was programming in. That's what focusing on the fundamentals will do to you I guess.

This thread puts a new perspective on my future education plans. :)
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How University Betrays Students

Postby odbo » Mon May 02, 2011 10:54 am

"I'd only send my son to university if he had no talent.
He is going anyway, for the social life and the certificate. I warn him that after studying the Humanities and Social Sciences, he won't be able to think independently or absorb information that doesn't fit his programming."

http://www.henrymakow.com/000561.html
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