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Capitalism in Decline

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Capitalism in Decline

Postby tradcom » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:04 am

I first thought about posting this as a response in the "Decline of the American Empire" thread, but decided to start a new topic about it because it's a different, though related, idea.

Capitalism is in decline. Karl Marx predicted that capitalism, once implemented, would simply feed on and ultimately destroy itself.

A society that implements capitalism is rid of a sense of purpose, a direction, and most importantly, values of any kind. It becomes a dog-eats-dog world where the law of the jungle applies, and "greed is good". It has horrific effects on everything from the family to social programs.

Those at the top have created a fake, Matrix-like, reality for us to live in. There is no such thing as democracy in the world. Every election in the world is carefully orchestrated to either prevent regime change or make it occur, depending on which option is desired by those at the top. The only reason that there is not a single, world government at the moment is discord among the elites themselves.

Far too many of us have the illusion of freedom. Capitalism is not freedom, it is slavery. It is the "freedom" to exploit your fellow human while being exploited yourself. Also, far too many people think that the more freedom you have, the happier you are. This is unquestionably false; indeed, studies have been conducted that show the brain being overwhelmed by too many choices and simply not choosing any at all, despite any choice being of benefit as opposed to none.

Even in a pure economic sense, capitalism simply does not work. The economic arguments for capitalism are largely created in a vacuum where markets behave perfectly. No market in the history of the world has ever behaved perfectly, and very few have even come remotely close to doing so. Thus, unpredictable events such as booms and busts, recessions and depressions, occur. They are unpredictable simply because there are no economic "laws" in this system, and thus all of the forecasting done for capitalist economies is useless.

Unfortunately, people all over the world have been raised to have unwavering loyalty to capitalism. Questioning capitalism gets one shunned by society. However, to call oneself intelligent entails questioning absolutely everything, including beliefs that one grew up with. This does not mean, of course, that such beliefs are necessarily wrong. What is necessarily wrong is not questioning them.
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Postby gsjackson » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:13 am

I spent a couple hours today trying to introduce Marx to the young age group here in the U.S. -- a classroom of college students. There's some resonance when you talk about false consciousness replacing natural human desires, but macro-economic analysis is something they just won't really get their minds around.

I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of free market system actually tried, so it can be said definitively that they don't work. Certainly, the bankster-controlled, corporate welfare, fascist regime we have here bears no relation to free market theory. I'm inclined to think that the western social democracies of the first 20 years post-WWII -- including, in many respects, the U.S. -- had the mix of market forces tempered by extensive regulation about right. Then came Reaganism and de-regulation, and the greed-heads ran amok. I guess, according to Marxist analysis, that's an inevitable outcome once capitalism's natural tendency toward monoply is set in motion.
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Re: Capitalism in Decline

Postby globetrotter » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:03 am

theyoungagegroup wrote:Capitalism is in decline. Karl Marx predicted that capitalism, once implemented, would simply feed on and ultimately destroy itself.

A society that implements capitalism is rid of a sense of purpose, a direction, and most importantly, values of any kind. It becomes a dog-eats-dog world where the law of the jungle applies, and "greed is good". It has horrific effects on everything from the family to social programs.


Wrong.

China and most of Asia is more capitalistic than the USA.

Nominally communist (the Government owns all land) it is more laissez faire than the USA or any EU SocDem.
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Re: Capitalism in Decline

Postby tradcom » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:40 am

globetrotter wrote:
theyoungagegroup wrote:Capitalism is in decline. Karl Marx predicted that capitalism, once implemented, would simply feed on and ultimately destroy itself.

A society that implements capitalism is rid of a sense of purpose, a direction, and most importantly, values of any kind. It becomes a dog-eats-dog world where the law of the jungle applies, and "greed is good". It has horrific effects on everything from the family to social programs.


Wrong.

China and most of Asia is more capitalistic than the USA.

Nominally communist (the Government owns all land) it is more laissez faire than the USA or any EU SocDem.


That does not contradict anything I said.
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Re: Capitalism in Decline

Postby globetrotter » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:34 am

theyoungagegroup wrote:
globetrotter wrote:
theyoungagegroup wrote:Capitalism is in decline. Karl Marx predicted that capitalism, once implemented, would simply feed on and ultimately destroy itself.

A society that implements capitalism is rid of a sense of purpose, a direction, and most importantly, values of any kind. It becomes a dog-eats-dog world where the law of the jungle applies, and "greed is good". It has horrific effects on everything from the family to social programs.


Wrong.

China and most of Asia is more capitalistic than the USA.

Nominally communist (the Government owns all land) it is more laissez faire than the USA or any EU SocDem.


That does not contradict anything I said.


Of course it does.

You quote Marx, yet China is Communist, founded on Marxism. I can show you schools that have images of Lenin, Marx and Engels on the walls.
But China's economy is full-bore Capitalism, nearly completely unrestrained.

If Karl Marx predicted that capitalism, once implemented, would simply feed on and ultimately destroy itself, then why is China growing while the USA collapses? Should not China collapse, too?

You cannot have it be bad in one nation and good in another...
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Re: Capitalism in Decline

Postby tradcom » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:18 am

globetrotter wrote:
theyoungagegroup wrote:
globetrotter wrote:
theyoungagegroup wrote:Capitalism is in decline. Karl Marx predicted that capitalism, once implemented, would simply feed on and ultimately destroy itself.

A society that implements capitalism is rid of a sense of purpose, a direction, and most importantly, values of any kind. It becomes a dog-eats-dog world where the law of the jungle applies, and "greed is good". It has horrific effects on everything from the family to social programs.


Wrong.

China and most of Asia is more capitalistic than the USA.

Nominally communist (the Government owns all land) it is more laissez faire than the USA or any EU SocDem.


That does not contradict anything I said.


Of course it does.

You quote Marx, yet China is Communist, founded on Marxism. I can show you schools that have images of Lenin, Marx and Engels on the walls.
But China's economy is full-bore Capitalism, nearly completely unrestrained.

If Karl Marx predicted that capitalism, once implemented, would simply feed on and ultimately destroy itself, then why is China growing while the USA collapses? Should not China collapse, too?

You cannot have it be bad in one nation and good in another...


First of all, China's economy is hardly "full-blown capitalist". It is state-directed capitalist and is restricted in many ways.

Second, the numerous negative side-effects of China's growth may very well come back to haunt it later. Remember, China only started growing at such a pace relatively recently.
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You Cannot Debate the Comrades

Postby Asia Outback » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:49 am

Now this should be interesting, but it is difficult to convince the champions of the People's Paradise of anything, except that standing in line for a little crappy food in the middle of a Russian winter really sucks! Now GT you will just have to calm down and sit back and pour yourself some capitalist beer and amuse yourself with the sweet details of "The little black book" as published
in French a while back, and let the keyboard Komandos pump the Marxist bilge till the bilge pump runs dry. As we all know anyway, the cure for the excesses of the overlord corporations is to put the Overlord State in charge. That'll fix things!
None of the overlord groups, Marxists, corporatists, fascists, are much fond of freedom, and as the poster warned, too much freedom is dangerous, (Except of course for the Overlord elites), and in reality of course, freedom is very dangerous to just those folks, especially when it is a birthright of the general population.
By the second or third beer, dialectic materialism will sound kind of sexy, (Sweetheart, do those words make my brain look fat?)
and you will find yourself easily distracted as the neighborhood political officer drolls on and you simple begin to fantasize that
the comrade at least has a hot daughter you could bang to get even, but alas, most daughters of comrades tend to be butt ugly, and I have known a few! I mean really, do you think there is any chance at all the Ma Jose Sison would be spanking it in The Netherlands, if there was any chance at all that his daughters or granddaughters would have ever been cute enough to do some of the background dancing on Wow Wow Wee! ?
If you get stuck listening to that recycled stuff for long, beer na beer starts to actually taste good and the stupor of it all makes you begin to think that being a hard core Fighter Wine Alchy might not be all that bad, and street boys sniffing glue start to look brilliant by comparison.

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Re: Capitalism in Decline

Postby globetrotter » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:34 am

theyoungagegroup wrote:First of all, China's economy is hardly "full-blown capitalist". It is state-directed capitalist and is restricted in many ways.

Second, the numerous negative side-effects of China's growth may very well come back to haunt it later. Remember, China only started growing at such a pace relatively recently.


Local mom and pops are everywhere.
Everyone owns a business.
It's easy and common, simple and cheap.
Prices are set by the market and only large projects are state directed.
Much of it is left to develop as it would organically.
Very few restrictiions.
Second, the numerous negative side-effects of China's growth may very well come back to haunt it later.


This is a belief system, not a fact. The USA and EU did not have negative effects that came back to haunt them until they stopped saving money.

Guess who saves money on this planet...
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