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Are some men running from being responsible?

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Postby aozora13 » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:00 am

I have to agree with Momopi. The opportunity that men can actually be able to travel to different cultures is good. There are many people who cannot do that. Most men on this forum want to meet a decent, rational woman. Sadly, there are very few women in the country that even fit that role. Also, even if you can find one, I rather avoid raising children in this culture.

Americans (well decent amount who are middle class) can work hard to move to another culture. Not too many people can leave like that. Also, being higher skilled opens many doors to working internationally. I can see an American who is able to do that but not too many Chinese and/or South Asian as the the Bangladesh. Americans for the most part have so much to be thankful for compared to people who live in other countries. Beyond the relatively 'wealthy' upper tier countries, the majority of countries are poor and there are some which are middle ground but even then, they live lower income lives and sadly being able to actually go to a different culture to do something such as a goal/dream is something that Americans can do if they want. However most American men will not leave the safety of America to do that.
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Postby ladislav » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:13 am

Another thing Americans have that even Canadians do not is the ease with which we can get credit. And credit, if used wisely can get you where you want to go and then you can pay it off in installments or go to Saudi and pay it off real quick. So, even if an American has no money, it is so easy to get a credit card. And credit can get out of of dodge, too.
When I lost my job in Thailand and did not get paid and had no money, I just zipped out my visa and charged a ticket home. I then went to Saudi and paid it all off. There were Western guys in Thailand who had gotten taken to the cleaners and had no money and they committed suicide.
When I was in Ukraine last year, they blocked my ATM card. So, again, I went to an international bank there and gave them my visa card and I had cash. Yes the advance cost me some $80. So what? I now had money to eat and to travel and to call my mom and all.
There is no way people in those poor countries can get credit. No way!.
Another thing is visas. I was in Frankfurt during Christmas time and I was going to Kuwait. Our planes got delayed because of bad weather and I was stuck there for two nights. I was with some Kuwaiti fellow passengers. These- in spite of being some of the richest people on Earth-, could not go past the immigration. They still needed visas to enter the EU. There were also Russians and other national there that could not go onto Germany while the planes were delayed. In my case, I just breezed through with the German immigration smiling at me lovingly.
And I was charging things like crazy on my 12 credit cards. Food, internet, drinks, phone call, etc. When I got to Kuwait, I just got online and paid everything off.
Lovely!
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!
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Postby Adama » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:02 pm

ladislav wrote:Another thing Americans have that even Canadians do not is the ease with which we can get credit. And credit, if used wisely can get you where you want to go and then you can pay it off in installments or go to Saudi and pay it off real quick. So, even if an American has no money, it is so easy to get a credit card. And credit can get out of of dodge, too.
When I lost my job in Thailand and did not get paid and had no money, I just zipped out my visa and charged a ticket home. I then went to Saudi and paid it all off. There were Western guys in Thailand who had gotten taken to the cleaners and had no money and they committed suicide.
When I was in Ukraine last year, they blocked my ATM card. So, again, I went to an international bank there and gave them my visa card and I had cash. Yes the advance cost me some $80. So what? I now had money to eat and to travel and to call my mom and all.
There is no way people in those poor countries can get credit. No way!.
Another thing is visas. I was in Frankfurt during Christmas time and I was going to Kuwait. Our planes got delayed because of bad weather and I was stuck there for two nights. I was with some Kuwaiti fellow passengers. These- in spite of being some of the richest people on Earth-, could not go past the immigration. They still needed visas to enter the EU. There were also Russians and other national there that could not go onto Germany while the planes were delayed. In my case, I just breezed through with the German immigration smiling at me lovingly.
And I was charging things like crazy on my 12 credit cards. Food, internet, drinks, phone call, etc. When I got to Kuwait, I just got online and paid everything off.
Lovely!


I agree in theory. But 12 credit cards, Ladi? Isnt that excessive? I didnt even know there were that many credit card banks. :)
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Postby Adama » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:17 pm

S_Parc wrote:
S_Parc, I am sure your sister has many good points about her, unfortunately, she was born in an anti-male era and it probably affected her, and maybe it brought out things in her that probably would not have developed if she was born in traditional times.


What I see is a perma-victim status where in effect, it's always the world which is *against me and my own aspirations*. The last I'd checked, many groups of Americans have had some familial struggle in some old country whether it be the Puritans in UK, Potato famine, Crimean War, WWI, WWII, Holocaust, Communist takeover, etc. And on the continent, the westward expansion, Civil War, Dust Bowl, Great Depression, etc. The American way, at least the way it was taught to me, was that very person was responsible for his or her own destiny, not by some birthright or pedigree. Granted, this doesn't apply to Boston Brahmins or certain WASP-y Investment Banking families in New England or New York but for the rest of us, it certainly does make sense.

Where persons like my sister get off is that they somehow misconstrue life's challenge as a type of persecution against their birthright, as if they were born aristocrats in England/Europe during the age of kings. Last I'd checked, my family was composed of middle class merchants & technicians, some of whom served the British during the heyday of the overseas British Empire, but certainly not Queen Victoria's bankers.

At this point in my life, I've "made it" and I did so w/o drama and fanfare. I simply did my work and kept an eye out for better opportunities, instead of looking to blame others for my own setbacks. My sister, on the other hand, had no such inklings. And likewise, I see many American women will similar ideologies where the world owes them something. Thus, I ask you and others, why should I feel a sense of endearment towards those with entitlement issues?


So when is your sister going to marry an upper middle class gentleman and take him to the cleaners?
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Postby S_Parc » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:39 pm

So when is your sister going to marry an upper middle class gentleman


No, she had to settle for a p*ssywhipped, workaholic Beta male with a normal, low borderline six figure income. That investment banker, on a white horse, was too wily for her.

But today, given all her closet drinking problems and inability to sustain her career, she's obese and no longer looks like the preppy seven sister's type of her 20s. So I think they're stuck with each other since he does a lot of OT and she's at home teaching her daughters that 'all men are { fill-in-your-derogatory animal }'. And at the same time, her hubby has some subconscious Catholic-like thinking where he doesn't believe in divorce so he'll keep himself busy for the sake of public appearance. It's a God send for her 'cause at some point in time, he'll have a coronary and then, she'll get both his life insurance and his 401K plan. I don't think he wants to live till retirement & I don't think she really wants to work either ... a perfect marriage made in hell.

Here's my summary on her, on the Alpha/Beta thread:

"When we were growing up, she got me into accepting a beta male role with the idea that I'd serve some great future business venture of hers. For years, she bragged about Gloria Steinem, Marie Curie, Susan Anthony, Patti Smith, Deborah Harry, and so forth, as if the spirits of these more accomplished women were in her body. In the end, she was a faux feminist, as she performed poorly in high school, (since my father couldn't pay for the upkeep of the lifestyle of the other elite preppies of our town), so she was always going through mood swings related to her HS pecking order. The reason why her hubby married her was 'cause she got him into believing that it was her parents fault and 'all that jazz' as oppose to something in her. Seeing that my father was in fact an intransigent type of lug, her BF played the role of the savior and did his best to lift her situation. Eventually, both her college and vocational plans fell apart and of course married and with kids, she became a closet alcoholic & long term abuser. The guy was then henpecked for life. For me, as I turned into an adult, I started to see through her. Sure, dad was a difficult person but it was just as easy to ignore him and to do ones' homework or get an internship in another city. I stopped paying attention and went on with my life. Eventually, we grew apart and she started hating me when it became apparent that I was more alpha (as a grown up) and less beta."
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Postby ladislav » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:01 pm

I agree in theory. But 12 credit cards, Ladi? Isnt that excessive? I didnt even know there were that many credit card banks. :)


Some folks are into stamp collecting, some into numismatics, guess what I am into. Oh, I have 14, not 12 and then some 5 debit cards. All paid in full. And I shall not begin to tell you the overall credit limit.

Alhamdurillah
as the say in the Middle East

I am nothing compared to this guy:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/WaterCooler/s ... 883&page=1
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!
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Postby MrPeabody » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:37 pm

In my opinion, an American woman's point of view is really worthless to men on this board. We have already heard all of the "it's our fault" arguments, so she has nothing to add. Furthermore, women in the United States are now mostly incapable of love or caring for another human being. You are much better off going to a third world country and interacting with women who still have these attributes. This knowledge is much more valuable to you.
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Postby S_Parc » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:17 pm

so she has nothing to add


Here's what I'm thinking ... she's playing a type of phony Devil's Advocate of the 'diamond in the rough' sophistry. What I believe, however, is she's actually trying to be a type of Agent Provocateur where she entraps a guy into responding with a racist/bigoted/sexist/criminal remark as a way of winning her case against him. The fellows here, being somewhat clever, have responded in ways which she can't ensnare them & so she feels challenged and is still playing cat/mouse to try to pin someone down. That's why I knew that she couldn't really respond to my sister's story because it's simply too real and too blunt for her to counteract. And given the fact that some 8 out of 10 American couples aren't really happy together long term (yes, a lot of unhappy folk don't go to divorce court), she's got a pretty weak platform to stand upon.
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Postby Adama » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:26 pm

S_Parc wrote:
So when is your sister going to marry an upper middle class gentleman


No, she had to settle for a p*ssywhipped, workaholic Beta male with a normal, low borderline six figure income. That investment banker, on a white horse, was too wily for her.

But today, given all her closet drinking problems and inability to sustain her career, she's obese and no longer looks like the preppy seven sister's type of her 20s. So I think they're stuck with each other since he does a lot of OT and she's at home teaching her daughters that 'all men are { fill-in-your-derogatory animal }'. And at the same time, her hubby has some subconscious Catholic-like thinking where he doesn't believe in divorce so he'll keep himself busy for the sake of public appearance. It's a God send for her 'cause at some point in time, he'll have a coronary and then, she'll get both his life insurance and his 401K plan. I don't think he wants to live till retirement & I don't think she really wants to work either ... a perfect marriage made in hell.

Here's my summary on her, on the Alpha/Beta thread:

"When we were growing up, she got me into accepting a beta male role with the idea that I'd serve some great future business venture of hers. For years, she bragged about Gloria Steinem, Marie Curie, Susan Anthony, Patti Smith, Deborah Harry, and so forth, as if the spirits of these more accomplished women were in her body. In the end, she was a faux feminist, as she performed poorly in high school, (since my father couldn't pay for the upkeep of the lifestyle of the other elite preppies of our town), so she was always going through mood swings related to her HS pecking order. The reason why her hubby married her was 'cause she got him into believing that it was her parents fault and 'all that jazz' as oppose to something in her. Seeing that my father was in fact an intransigent type of lug, her BF played the role of the savior and did his best to lift her situation. Eventually, both her college and vocational plans fell apart and of course married and with kids, she became a closet alcoholic & long term abuser. The guy was then henpecked for life. For me, as I turned into an adult, I started to see through her. Sure, dad was a difficult person but it was just as easy to ignore him and to do ones' homework or get an internship in another city. I stopped paying attention and went on with my life. Eventually, we grew apart and she started hating me when it became apparent that I was more alpha (as a grown up) and less beta."


Your sister sounds like many AWs to me. They simply choose to be miserably. Just because a certain situation presents itself, it doesnt mean we have to react to the negative extreme. She could have chosen to react differently to her life situation.

Her life doesnt actually sound that bad at all, but from what you say, she must be a miserable person. She is female, after all, and had the luxury of snagging a wage slave, rather than having to get out and risk homelessness.
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Postby Woman'sview » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:54 am

Winston wrote:Woman's view, you are right that there are many dysfunctional messed up men in the US too. However, the culture is mostly to blame for that. It instills people, especially men, with inferiority complexes. But once these dysfunctional men are in different cultures, they feel a lot better and their self-esteem improves too, all of which lessen their dysfunction. It's hard to explain and hard to put into words. You gotta experience it as a guy to truly understand it.

So you are right that some men are messed up, but even if they are not "responsible" or "running" as you call it, as long as they are "happier overseas", why judge them? Aren't they better off if they are happier anyway? Why should they stay put on a sinking ship?

As you know, blaming yourself or following cliched advice usually never accomplishes anything. So why play a losing game?

The culture and environment are mostly to blame. I don't think normal men suddenly decide one day to become dysfunctional.


Winston, I want to commend you for creating such a unique site. I rather enjoy the original contributions of many of the members here. It is a site where people are not afraid to speak the truth of what is going on in America, and what is going on in the minds, (and seldom spoken), of many people, behind the carefully constructed masks we present to the world.

This is what I like about this website.

Anyway, about your post, I am all for people seeking their happiness, even if they have to go to the ends of the earth to find it. This is the only site I know that promotes actually transplanting to another culture altogether to build your new life. Wish you guys the best in that.

What I don't like here, is guys who would seek to immigrate for pleasure only. When a man leave this country, he is an ambassador for the US, and if he just lives just for pleasure and sex, surely, it will leave an impression on the natives that Americans are that way. It also, does not help the individuals who are carrying on this lifestyle. A person of conscience should be able to recognize this.

It would be a better standard, if when men immigrate, they do it for romance that LEADS TO MARRIAGE AND FAMILY. Or the guys run the risk of doing the same thing that some here are accusing a few American women of doing, playing the field with many lovers and conquering as many as they can, and instead of the female licentiousness, the pendulum now swings to the other extreme - male licentiousness.

I hope that Happier Abroad can develop into a gold standard for healthy relationships abroad.
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Postby Woman'sview » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:26 am

S_Parc wrote:
S_Parc, I am sure your sister has many good points about her, unfortunately, she was born in an anti-male era and it probably affected her, and maybe it brought out things in her that probably would not have developed if she was born in traditional times.


What I see is a perma-victim status where in effect, it's always the world which is *against me and my own aspirations*. The last I'd checked, many groups of Americans have had some familial struggle in some old country whether it be the Puritans in UK, Potato famine, Crimean War, WWI, WWII, Holocaust, Communist takeover, etc. And on the continent, the westward expansion, Civil War, Dust Bowl, Great Depression, etc. The American way, at least the way it was taught to me, was that very person was responsible for his or her own destiny, not by some birthright or pedigree. Granted, this doesn't apply to Boston Brahmins or certain WASP-y Investment Banking families in New England or New York but for the rest of us, it certainly does make sense.

Where persons like my sister get off is that they somehow misconstrue life's challenge as a type of persecution against their birthright, as if they were born aristocrats in England/Europe during the age of kings. Last I'd checked, my family was composed of middle class merchants & technicians, some of whom served the British during the heyday of the overseas British Empire, but certainly not Queen Victoria's bankers.

At this point in my life, I've "made it" and I did so w/o drama and fanfare. I simply did my work and kept an eye out for better opportunities, instead of looking to blame others for my own setbacks. My sister, on the other hand, had no such inklings. And likewise, I see many American women will similar ideologies where the world owes them something. Thus, I ask you and others, why should I feel a sense of endearment towards those with entitlement issues?


S-Parc, I see the inequity in what you are describing. But, it is some kind of poetic justice that your sister does not enjoy her power anyway. Hopefully, it does not come to a point where it will affect the health of her husband. I know women who make their husband's life a living hell and gloat over it, too. They lack the ability to see themselves and to see what destruction they are doing to their families and children. The children, unfortunately, have no other perspectives, but the views of this matriarch. What happens is that the children often join the mother in teaming up against the father. Hopefully, she does not do damage to her children. If you get a healthy dose of soap opera every weekday, a helpful serving of prime time TV shows every night showing what women are supposedly "entitled" to, you might really begin to believe that is your entitlement.
Perhaps, there is little contrast in her life, to show your sister that she is not really the Queen she believes herself to be.

I know lots of American women who do not live like this, or do not feel a sense of entitlement. You have to believe there are a few left. But you are a free man, so you can travel the world to find the woman of your dreams. At least, you know from firsthand experience with your sister, what to avoid.
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Postby Woman'sview » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:41 am

momopi wrote:
Winston wrote:Woman's view, you are right that there are many dysfunctional messed up men in the US too. However, the culture is mostly to blame for that. It instills people, especially men, with inferiority complexes. But once these dysfunctional men are in different cultures, they feel a lot better and their self-esteem improves too, all of which lessen their dysfunction. It's hard to explain and hard to put into words. You gotta experience it as a guy to truly understand it.
So you are right that some men are messed up, but even if they are not "responsible" or "running" as you call it, as long as they are "happier overseas", why judge them? Aren't they better off if they are happier anyway? Why should they stay put on a sinking ship?
As you know, blaming yourself or following cliched advice usually never accomplishes anything. So why play a losing game?
The culture and environment are mostly to blame. I don't think normal men suddenly decide one day to become dysfunctional.


Americans are privileged to have the option and financial means, to vote with their feet and move elsewhere.

These guys in Bangladesh get paid ~90 cents for every 1,000 bricks they haul:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm4zuJ6nqws&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

In China:

http://www.chinasmack.com/2009/pictures ... ctory.html

Image

This girl, if she's lucky, will join the 120 million + migrant workers and get a job at a factory in coastal province, working 60 hours per week and earn $130/month.


It makes one appreciate what one has here.
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Postby Woman'sview » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:43 am

aozora13 wrote:I have to agree with Momopi. The opportunity that men can actually be able to travel to different cultures is good. There are many people who cannot do that. Most men on this forum want to meet a decent, rational woman. Sadly, there are very few women in the country that even fit that role. Also, even if you can find one, I rather avoid raising children in this culture.

Americans (well decent amount who are middle class) can work hard to move to another culture. Not too many people can leave like that. Also, being higher skilled opens many doors to working internationally. I can see an American who is able to do that but not too many Chinese and/or South Asian as the the Bangladesh. Americans for the most part have so much to be thankful for compared to people who live in other countries. Beyond the relatively 'wealthy' upper tier countries, the majority of countries are poor and there are some which are middle ground but even then, they live lower income lives and sadly being able to actually go to a different culture to do something such as a goal/dream is something that Americans can do if they want. However most American men will not leave the safety of America to do that.


Many good points!
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Postby Woman'sview » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:45 am

[quote="ladislav"]Another thing Americans have that even Canadians do not is the ease with which we can get credit. And credit, if used wisely can get you where you want to go and then you can pay it off in installments or go to Saudi and pay it off real quick. So, even if an American has no money, it is so easy to get a credit card. And credit can get out of of dodge, too.
When I lost my job in Thailand and did not get paid and had no money, I just zipped out my visa and charged a ticket home. I then went to Saudi and paid it all off. There were Western guys in Thailand who had gotten taken to the cleaners and had no money and they committed suicide.
When I was in Ukraine last year, they blocked my ATM card. So, again, I went to an international bank there and gave them my visa card and I had cash. Yes the advance cost me some $80. So what? I now had money to eat and to travel and to call my mom and all.
There is no way people in those poor countries can get credit. No way!.
Another thing is visas. I was in Frankfurt during Christmas time and I was going to Kuwait. Our planes got delayed because of bad weather and I was stuck there for two nights. I was with some Kuwaiti fellow passengers. These- in spite of being some of the richest people on Earth-, could not go past the immigration. They still needed visas to enter the EU. There were also Russians and other national there that could not go onto Germany while the planes were delayed. In my case, I just breezed through with the German immigration smiling at me lovingly.
And I was charging things like crazy on my 12 credit cards. Food, internet, drinks, phone call, etc. When I got to Kuwait, I just got online and paid everything off.
Lovely![/quote

Oh, the good life!
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Postby Woman'sview » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:50 am

S_Parc said: "But today, given all her closet drinking problems and inability to sustain her career, she's obese and no longer looks like the preppy seven sister's type of her 20s. So I think they're stuck with each other since he does a lot of OT and she's at home teaching her daughters that 'all men are { fill-in-your-derogatory animal }'. And at the same time, her hubby has some subconscious Catholic-like thinking where he doesn't believe in divorce so he'll keep himself busy for the sake of public appearance. It's a God send for her 'cause at some point in time, he'll have a coronary and then, she'll get both his life insurance and his 401K plan. I don't think he wants to live till retirement & I don't think she really wants to work either ... a perfect marriage made in hell."





................................................................
It's sad, isn't it?
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