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Eastern Definition of Masculinity

For Asian Americans to discuss Asian American issues and topics.

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Eastern Definition of Masculinity

Postby mguy » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:48 am

If you think western alpha male types will translate well in Asia, well I think you are mistaken.

There seems to be a different definition of masculinity that is distinctly eastern.

Here are things I've noticed.

- A guy with huge muscles here is just that.. a guy who likes to go to the gym.
- The alpha male who likes being center of attention is viewed as a negative
- Height is not a major factor in determining alphaness (height is given less weight)
- Being bold and aggressive is being too bold and being too aggressive
- I'm not sure, but it seems that men are more likely to form flat groups as opposed to western para-military style.
- The men do not equate their masculinity with notches, it seems being single is a good choice
- Being a romantic is being masculine, while it is being a chump in the west
- Being conservative non-risk taker has no penalty
- There's also always a local version of masculine Asian male seen in local movies -- they are almost always involved in fighting
"So never refuse an invitation, never resist the unfamiliar, never fail to be polite and never outstay the welcome. Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it."

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Postby zboy1 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:38 am

Exactly, mguy! Over in this part of the world, the typical douchebag American Alpha Male would not be seen as a model for most men; that's why I like it here.

I don't understand how your average, philandering, drunken, college-jock a-hole is so widely admired in the West as much as they are...?
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Re: Eastern Definition of Masculinity

Postby Jester » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:01 am

mguy wrote:
If you think western alpha male types will translate well in Asia, well I think you are mistaken.

There seems to be a different definition of masculinity that is distinctly eastern.

Here are things I've noticed.

- A guy with huge muscles here is just that.. a guy who likes to go to the gym.
- The alpha male who likes being center of attention is viewed as a negative
- Height is not a major factor in determining alphaness (height is given less weight)
- Being bold and aggressive is being too bold and being too aggressive
- I'm not sure, but it seems that men are more likely to form flat groups as opposed to western para-military style.
- The men do not equate their masculinity with notches, it seems being single is a good choice
- Being a romantic is being masculine, while it is being a chump in the west
- Being conservative non-risk taker has no penalty
- There's also always a local version of masculine Asian male seen in local movies -- they are almost always involved in fighting



Interesting, but I'd like to see more about what the Eastern definition actually IS, rather than what it is not.
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Re: Eastern Definition of Masculinity

Postby mguy » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:48 am

Jester wrote:
Interesting, but I'd like to see more about what the Eastern definition actually IS, rather than what it is not.


The eastern version is calm and calculating, never pompous and direct.

Say for example, approaching. A western man would just go and approach the female and lay siege so to speak. If he doesn't get it, ok he took the risk.

Eastern men do not have the advantage of just doing cold approach as there is an element of face and protocols. They would more likely adapt a strategy of building bridges, empire building so to speak, until the link is established. This is indirect.

The beta eastern male would not have sought the link, an alpha would have expanded.
------

Or in a social-gathering. The western alpha would be loud and controlling, displaying aggression (think jock types) while the eastern alpha would be more reserved building more on mystery and intrigue than direct-selling of his goods. If he were to be loud and aggressive, he would lose on social-capital by violating the norms and hint at his lack of social-intelligence.
"So never refuse an invitation, never resist the unfamiliar, never fail to be polite and never outstay the welcome. Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it."

Like to read?Third World Hero
Like to see?3WorldHero -- Did he really just do that?

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Re: Eastern Definition of Masculinity

Postby Jester » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:55 am

mguy wrote:
Jester wrote:
Interesting, but I'd like to see more about what the Eastern definition actually IS, rather than what it is not.


The eastern version is calm and calculating, never pompous and direct.

Say for example, approaching. A western man would just go and approach the female and lay siege so to speak. If he doesn't get it, ok he took the risk.

Eastern men do not have the advantage of just doing cold approach as there is an element of face and protocols. They would more likely adapt a strategy of building bridges, empire building so to speak, until the link is established. This is indirect.

The beta eastern male would not have sought the link, an alpha would have expanded.
------

Or in a social-gathering. The western alpha would be loud and controlling, displaying aggression (think jock types) while the eastern alpha would be more reserved building more on mystery and intrigue than direct-selling of his goods. If he were to be loud and aggressive, he would lose on social-capital by violating the norms and hint at his lack of social-intelligence.



Thanks.

very interesting. I see advantages but doubt I could ever change over to that way of behaving.

I've seen what you describe among Thai and Japanese students and executives, but not noticed it among Chinese or Filipino FOB's. Chinese seem more direct/pushy, and Filipinos just friendly and easygoing.

I do sense the presence of unspoken decorum among all Asians, though. Like if I f**k up, it is noticed.
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Re: Eastern Definition of Masculinity

Postby Bane » Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:22 pm

mguy wrote:If you think western alpha male types will translate well in Asia, well I think you are mistaken.

There seems to be a different definition of masculinity that is distinctly eastern.

Here are things I've noticed.

- A guy with huge muscles here is just that.. a guy who likes to go to the gym.
- The alpha male who likes being center of attention is viewed as a negative
- Height is not a major factor in determining alphaness (height is given less weight)
- Being bold and aggressive is being too bold and being too aggressive
- I'm not sure, but it seems that men are more likely to form flat groups as opposed to western para-military style.
- The men do not equate their masculinity with notches, it seems being single is a good choice
- Being a romantic is being masculine, while it is being a chump in the west
- Being conservative non-risk taker has no penalty
- There's also always a local version of masculine Asian male seen in local movies -- they are almost always involved in fighting


The above is pretty much spot on, with the exception of the two that I underlined. Height IS a major factor in the Far East, particularly China. It wasn't always this way, though. I think a lot of the recent obsession with stature comes from Western cultural influences (movies, NBA, etc.) Keep in mind that leg-lengthening surgery is HUGE in China. There are jobs like insurance salesmen who won't hire somebody unless they meet a minimum height requirement. I could actually say that in many cases, height is a bigger deal over there than it is in the west. Most women who I talked to/dated before I met my wife tell me that they require their men to be at least 15cm (6 inches) taller than them. Pretty much the same thing here in the States. So, if a girl is 5'2, many (disclaimer: not all) will require their men to be at least 5'8.

Also, I have known and observed many Chinese couples in China, and I would say that the idea of Chinese men being "romantic" is a fallacy. Sure, occasionally the men will splurge on their women and buy them something really expensive or take them on a lavish vacation, but it is not as common as one might think. For the most part, Chinese men (especially the younger career oriented types) are much more concerned with making money and furthering their own interests rather than trying to impress some woman. I think a lot of western males can learn a thing or two from this attitude.

Of course a lack of romance is not unique to China. Just look at Japan, with their high percentages of otakus and grass eaters, and it really shouldn't come as a surprise why they aren't dating/marrying/reproducing as much anymore.
"A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world." -Oscar Wilde

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent" -Sun Tzu
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Re: Eastern Definition of Masculinity

Postby mguy » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:17 am

There's also xenophobia. Or maybe that is too strong a word.

Alpha Asian will always have reservations about an outside culture. Think Qingemperor when the British came. A beta Asian would be quick to accept a seemingly superior culture. Alpha Asian sees every culture in an even keel. There is no superior culture there is just the other cultures and my culture.

Jester wrote:I see advantages but doubt I could ever change over to that way of behaving.


The western culture is strong and has many good aspects to it. I think an Asian-American guy who goes back to Asia is always a hybrid. In this we play both hands.
"So never refuse an invitation, never resist the unfamiliar, never fail to be polite and never outstay the welcome. Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it."

Like to read?Third World Hero
Like to see?3WorldHero -- Did he really just do that?

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Postby ladislav » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:39 pm

The above is true of pure Buddhist and Tao Asian cultures where indigenous Eastern ways predominate. Thailand, China, Cambodia.

Not so much in the Catholic Philippines where most songs on the radio are American, people wear T shirts with huge letters "USA" and where the latest Beauty queen is someone named " Megan Young". Not a very Eastern/ Asian name if you ask me. No other Asian country would allow someone with a foreign name like that represent them. The Philippines was proud to do that.

In the Philippines, an aggressive , mono-lingual ( English only) American Alpha man does very well as he gathers around him huge numbers of admirers and friends all trying to imbibe more Americanism from him. He walks as proud as a war hero and the locals seem to just lap it up. In no time he has a GF who immediately adjusts to his culture even if she is in her country. And she loves the American. And so do all the people in the neighborhood.

Now, in Thailand, this type of behavior would probably invite " Yankee Go Home" response and it would be just as shocking to most other Eastern peoples. Not to Filipinos.

My anecdotal observation? Perhaps. But no such Alpha American male remains without a GF for longer than a week in that country.
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Postby kai1275 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:02 pm

So Mguy what do you make of Western guys that come off as a bit Alpha, when in the East?

For example: A black guy with muscles with even small amounts of American swagger, cannot try to look the physical part of an Eastern man no matter what he tries. Some women in the East like that style though and would be upset if you changed anything about yourself in that regard. For example my wife laughs at skinny Asian men with small chests. She thinks men with big muscles are really manly and tough. She is always concerned when I take breaks from lifting and exercise. I know she is a minority, but I have met others like her that feel that way.. Some Eastern women like those aspects we display.
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Postby mguy » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:56 am

kai1275 wrote:So Mguy what do you make of Western guys that come off as a bit Alpha, when in the East?

For example: A black guy with muscles with even small amounts of American swagger, cannot try to look the physical part of an Eastern man no matter what he tries. Some women in the East like that style though and would be upset if you changed anything about yourself in that regard. For example my wife laughs at skinny Asian men with small chests. She thinks men with big muscles are really manly and tough. She is always concerned when I take breaks from lifting and exercise. I know she is a minority, but I have met others like her that feel that way.. Some Eastern women like those aspects we display.


The impression is: it is too much.

There's an expression kulang sa pansin which is literally starved for attention. Which is the common complain Filipinas have. They also notice the "kino" escalation employed by foreigners.

If a black man were to wear hiphop fashion with gold chain it is almost seen as being a clown. The Africans from Africa (who are with Filipinas mind you and are a new trending demographic here) are not big at all, they are just normal sized dudes who are normal in every facet of their personas. OTOH the American black males are almost always bigger and are almost always more outgoing (taking pic with police and talking to girls).

The thing is: if you put a muscular black man a non-muscular black side by side then the only difference really is that the muscular guy has more muscles. The local guys would be impressed for sure, but it does not have the same connotation as in the west. And honestly, it is nice to have muscles, but sometimes it is too much.
Last edited by mguy on Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
"So never refuse an invitation, never resist the unfamiliar, never fail to be polite and never outstay the welcome. Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it."

Like to read?Third World Hero
Like to see?3WorldHero -- Did he really just do that?

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Postby mguy » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:01 am

ladislav wrote:In the Philippines, an aggressive , mono-lingual ( English only) American Alpha man does very well as he gathers around him huge numbers of admirers and friends all trying to imbibe more Americanism from him. He walks as proud as a war hero and the locals seem to just lap it up. In no time he has a GF who immediately adjusts to his culture even if she is in her country. And she loves the American. And so do all the people in the neighborhood.


Yes, these one-day-millionaire as they call it. The American Alpha is quick to think he is getting lots of p***y (he is) but also is the rate that they are burning his wallet. Everyone wants a piece of American Alpha man.. before he goes home and saves up (actual words used). That's why i advocate doing the jeepney test I wrote in my blog. It also makes me think if American men are gaming Asian girls or are Asian girls gaming American men. Another topic perhaps..
"So never refuse an invitation, never resist the unfamiliar, never fail to be polite and never outstay the welcome. Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it."

Like to read?Third World Hero
Like to see?3WorldHero -- Did he really just do that?

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Re: Eastern Definition of Masculinity

Postby Jester » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:40 am

mguy wrote:
Jester wrote:
I see advantages but doubt I could ever change over to that way of behaving.



The western culture is strong and has many good aspects to it. I think an Asian-American guy who goes back to Asia is always a hybrid. In this we play both hands.



Sounds like a winner.

Machiavelli said a Prince should be able to play either the Lion or the Fox, depending on circumstances. (Incidentally, Richard Nixon, citing Machiavelli, wrote that the conduct of the Israelis embodied this principle perfectly.)
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Postby mguy » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:28 am

After spending time here and letting myself become acculturated, I am convinced that the west has demonized the masculine image of Asian men. I urge Asian guys to travel here to Asia or in Latin America to find a similar experience. Write about it, blog about it.

Here's another revelation.

Same girl, say blonde-chick, would largely ignore an Asian man in the USA.
Not take same girl bring them to Asia and they will become more receptive to the same Asian man.


What is the reason for this??

I believe it has to do with skewed dating valuation of the Anglosphere taking into account race and its corresponding implication on social-capital. The explanation of why Asian men will never reflect their true dating value gets technical but I am certain that masculinity is expressed through culture through the lens of the local society.
"So never refuse an invitation, never resist the unfamiliar, never fail to be polite and never outstay the welcome. Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it."

Like to read?Third World Hero
Like to see?3WorldHero -- Did he really just do that?

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Postby Kuli » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:47 pm

I don't know if this is much of a contribution, but I've been to Thailand two times to train Muay Thai and many fighter's that are complete killer's in the ring are just the most humble and generous guys outside of it. They dispited street fighting (although they would probably win against any d-bag that would challenge them), unresponsible drinking, usage of drugs and general undiciplined and disrespectful behavoire where seen as bad.
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Postby mguy » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:29 am

I think Asian males have a smaller egos that western males.

I think bulking up is a result of an American insecurity (I am bulking up so there)
"So never refuse an invitation, never resist the unfamiliar, never fail to be polite and never outstay the welcome. Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience. And if it hurts, you know what? It's probably worth it."

Like to read?Third World Hero
Like to see?3WorldHero -- Did he really just do that?

mguy
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