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JT Tran, Asian PUA Guru: What a Scam and Ripoff!

For Asian Americans to discuss Asian American issues and topics.

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PU can be a great thing for some

Postby Rock » Sun May 23, 2010 11:35 am

These days, there is a lot of free (or very cheap) info from over a dozen PU artists and the seduction community in the States - Youtubes, free newsletters, books, etc. Some names which come to mind are David DeAngelo, Style, Mystery, Mehow, Ross Jeffries, Dr. Paul, Matador, and Don Steel.

Some are good while others mostly copy or tout BS. A few of them focus on particular niches - inner game, body language and sexual tension, NLP, picking-up in bars and clubs, day game, overseas game, structured and practiced if-then techniques, older men picking-up younger women, Internet pick-ups, etc. etc.

I DO NOT believe that a 3 day boot camp or seminar is going to transform you from a dud to stud. This stuff is more like a martial art. You need to commit yourself to it and put in the work over a long period to get serious improvement.

Also, some guys have a lot more potential than others. If you are a normal looking 20 something with zero confidence or experience, I believe learning and applying some of this stuff could make a big impact. When I was in high school, I thought I was extremely ugly and repulsive to girls. I would get red faced and shaky just looking at them. Of course, that made me look like a huge loser to everyone and I never got dates or popularity. This poor self image extended into my college years. Now when I look back, I realize all this shit was just in my head. If PU theory and materials had been available to me then, I believe it could have helped me eliminate limiting beliefs and kick-start my dating life. If nothing else, it would push me to approach a lot of girls.

If you don't approach any girls, how are you going to get any dates? Well, perhaps you are so interesting and attractive that girls you like approach you. But if you're not so lucky, you need to put-in the work and live with at least some rejection. Kind of like selling insurance.
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Postby FuzzX » Sun May 23, 2010 12:24 pm

PUArtistry is good... it is. The fact of the matter is that a large majority of men around the world were not born into families who taught us anything about girls. I grew up around a Commodore 64 and for the life of me couldn't figure out how to speak to a girl, I don't care where she was from, I just couldn't do it. I didn't have sex until I was 25... So if you have no skills and you're starting from zero then boot camps and pick up techniques are great ways of developing a friendly and social personality. They work all around the world... the might not be AS necessary, but they are still necessary to some degree. Nerds are nerds no matter where you are in the world and women look at them as such. Understanding how to keep yourself out of that 'friend zone' is essential. Also identifying RED FLAGS, as a nice guy I just assumed that all women were wonderful and had the best intentions at heart.

I think you certainly need a good education in PUA to understand even half the concepts we throw around on the forum. I think that's why most of us are labelled 'radical'. After having been in the pickup scene for 6 or 7 years I can understand where the MGTOW movement is coming from and why guys prefer going overseas to meet girls... the average person thinks I'm nuts when I talk about either.

The getting rejected part is akin to developing sales skills... at first cold calling is torture and you hate it... people yell at you, call you a loser, hang up and you feel like crap. The more you do it the bigger resistance to rejection you build up until rejection is just the water rolling off the duck's back. It helped me learn to talk and approach anyone anywhere and do basically anything without fear of what others will think. I know I can pickup women in my underwear, driving a beat up car with bad breath if I needed to. Then we can go for a first class dinner at McDonalds and I know almost 90% of the time she'll be coming home with me at the end of the night.

I don't really understand the forum's all out rejection of PUA related material. Its just a way of developing social and networking skills and it goes hand in hand with being an ESL teacher. Then again I never paid for anything to do with PUA I just used the free stuff on the net. http://www.jbspencer.com/djb/
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Postby Rock » Sun May 23, 2010 1:11 pm

FuzzX wrote:PUArtistry is good... it is. The fact of the matter is that a large majority of men around the world were not born into families who taught us anything about girls. I grew up around a Commodore 64 and for the life of me couldn't figure out how to speak to a girl, I don't care where she was from, I just couldn't do it. I didn't have sex until I was 25... So if you have no skills and you're starting from zero then boot camps and pick up techniques are great ways of developing a friendly and social personality. They work all around the world... the might not be AS necessary, but they are still necessary to some degree. Nerds are nerds no matter where you are in the world and women look at them as such. Understanding how to keep yourself out of that 'friend zone' is essential. Also identifying RED FLAGS, as a nice guy I just assumed that all women were wonderful and had the best intentions at heart.

I think you certainly need a good education in PUA to understand even half the concepts we throw around on the forum. I think that's why most of us are labelled 'radical'. After having been in the pickup scene for 6 or 7 years I can understand where the MGTOW movement is coming from and why guys prefer going overseas to meet girls... the average person thinks I'm nuts when I talk about either.

The getting rejected part is akin to developing sales skills... at first cold calling is torture and you hate it... people yell at you, call you a loser, hang up and you feel like crap. The more you do it the bigger resistance to rejection you build up until rejection is just the water rolling off the duck's back. It helped me learn to talk and approach anyone anywhere and do basically anything without fear of what others will think. I know I can pickup women in my underwear, driving a beat up car with bad breath if I needed to. Then we can go for a first class dinner at McDonalds and I know almost 90% of the time she'll be coming home with me at the end of the night.

I don't really understand the forum's all out rejection of PUA related material. Its just a way of developing social and networking skills and it goes hand in hand with being an ESL teacher. Then again I never paid for anything to do with PUA I just used the free stuff on the net. http://www.jbspencer.com/djb/


Amen bro. This stuff can do wonders in many countries.

I learned by trial and error in Taiwan and eventually improved my ability to understand and relate to the local women. In the early days, I did a lot of stupid crap - being weak, too nice, too needy, clingy, telling them I wanted to be in a relationship with them after a date or two, not appearing to have a life, acting hurt when they shit-tested me, not escalating things to the physical level at the right time, etc. - and it usually led to a predictable FAILURE outcome. Once in awhile, a girl would like me so much from the outset that I could get away with these mistakes, but not usually.

By the time I discovered the community and read through some of their basic materials, I found they largely supported my own findings while providing some additional ideas and concepts. Of course, most of it is US centric and needs to be adjusted somewhat for girls in different countries depending on that country's specific culture and situation. But at the end of the day, women are women inside. In many ways, they're very similar to each other.
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Postby Winston » Sun May 23, 2010 1:31 pm

FuzzX wrote:I don't really understand the forum's all out rejection of PUA related material. Its just a way of developing social and networking skills and it goes hand in hand with being an ESL teacher. Then again I never paid for anything to do with PUA I just used the free stuff on the net. http://www.jbspencer.com/djb/


I've explained it before. Because I've never seen it work in anyone's life or changed it. Taste is a subjective thing. You either are her type or you aren't. You can't control attraction with a formula or technique. That's unnatural and not the way people work. That's how computer programs work, not people.

You can use all the PUA technique you want, but if she doesn't like you, then it's not gonna matter. That's the reality. The PUA virtual world seems to be fictitious.

Plus the whole thing is unnatural and feels unnatural. Sure you can make airheads laugh by being cocky and funny. But that's not going to create attraction.
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Postby globetrotter » Sun May 23, 2010 2:46 pm

chanta76 wrote:globetrotter,

I never been to China . If I may ask are you white? The reason why I ask is that I notice that for white guys they tend to have more of a privilege status in hooking up with foreign girls in foreign country more so than let say a guy like me who looks Asians. I know Wu will say other wise.


I don't discuss race on forums.
You might want to consider the FSU. Ladislav says that they like Asians there. Winston has good results, too.
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Postby FuzzX » Sun May 23, 2010 2:58 pm

You can't control attraction with a formula or technique

Disagree. If this were the case then none of the men on tv would have the following they do. None of the guys on MTV would get girls if they couldn't sing, none of the men on 'the real housewives of whatever country' would get girls without money. None of the bikers or ex cons would ever be able to hook up with girls. You absolutely can control attraction with formula and technique..

Take two guys, Guy 1 who is extremely good looking and Guy 2 who is a bit ugly and a little fat.

Guy 1
-------
Closed off
Introvert
Speaks quietly
Virgin, never touched or kissed a girl
Spends his 9 to 5 in an office
Talks only about a girl and whatever she wants
Has lots of girl 'friends' but no girlfriends
Backs off when intimidated by other guys
Supplicates to both women and strong men
Is needy and clingy
Centers his world around her
Buys her stuff whenever she asks
Brings her flowers everyday
Is there for her whenever she calls, always a shoulder to cry on
Plays magic cards all day (I play magic cards btw)
Puts himself down or talks about himself all the time
Extremely self conscious, needs the best of everything, is always concerned what someone may think.
Dresses very plain or business casual
Rarely speaks when not spoken to
Doesn't have much to say, never has anything new going on.
Adheres to the same routine every day.
Spends all day at the gym trying to build a body because 'that's what chicks like'
Has no idea how to talk to a woman, has never tried unless over the internet
Feminist or agrees with feminism or just never disagrees with a woman

Guy 2
-------
Extremely outgoing, you know you two will be hooking up later from the first meeting
Always has friends dropping around to his house or calling
Has tons of hobbies and networks
Very experienced, been with lots of women
Always has a story to tell or something interesting to say
Not impressed by a perfect 10's looks, blows them out of the water, tells them to f**k off at the drop of a hat
Does not put up with bad behavior or people being passive aggressive
Hardly ever talks about women
Rarely buys a girl anything
Centers his world around himself, his family and friends
Enjoys just hanging out and is always up for doing something fun
Worldy, can live in a box under a bridge or in a million dollar palace, does not discriminate based on money
Is a bit dangerous but you always feel safe when you're with him, you know he's got your back
Has a bit of style, is a bit of a rebel (think James Dean)
A bit sarcastic, always fun to talk to...
is never bored or boring, does not think twice about telling you he's bored or you are boring.
Always talks about you and introduces you to all his friends
Genuinely wants to help you become a better person
Doesn't care what anyone thinks about his clothes, his friends or his way of life

Which are you more attracted to?

Women are no different... that's why I can go on a date with a millionairess, bring her to McDonalds and play UNO the whole night and bang her like crazy at the end in my ghetto apartment. While a millionaire takes her out to a fancy restaurant in his BMW, takes her shopping and then tastes fine wine and at the end of the night she gives him a kiss on the cheek and comes over to my house for a b***y call. This is why my ex-girlfriends still email me and want to get back together even though tons of rich guys are offering to take them out.

I learned a lot of my PUA technique from a guy who had never heard of PUA.. he was basically a natural with women.. we'll call him X. When I met X he was fat, balding and worked as a bartender. X had a new girl every single night and a couple threesomes... one while I was in the next room trying to sleep on his couch. Both girls he kicked out in the morning and then afterward X went into the kitchen and made me breakfast. (We were coming back from a night out at the bars) I had managed to pickup 0 women that night. We were going to police college together and he had already nailed almost EVERY girl in our classes and everyone loved being around him. I was really shy and he just happened to take me under his wing when I helped him with a school assignment. X was one of the coolest guys I ever met and I was always happy hanging out at his apartment even though it was dirty as shit and he only had a couch and a tv. It was a bit like the playboy mansion...there were always hot girls coming around to his house.

I got into a bit of an altercation with a really muscular guy in a bar that I bumped into... this guy grabbed me and was about to lay into me and before I could yell he was lying on the floor with both hands over his crotch.. X had come up right beside him and hoofed him right in the balls. He then had bar security and a few of his friends take the guy out into the alley.

That is a bit like what being a PUA is about and people are naturally attracted to those types of guys. Girls are so attracted that they will happily spread just to hang out with a guy like that.

Typically these are the types of ESL teachers I like to hang around... The 3rd world breeds this type of character.

If you don't have these qualities and aren't willing to develop them then you NEED a LOT of money to attract women. That's why foreign women are so easy for foreign men to pick up. If you don't have game you are just a walking wallet and when the money runs out so does she.
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Postby Rock » Sun May 23, 2010 3:14 pm

Winston wrote:I've explained it before. Because I've never seen it work in anyone's life or changed it. Taste is a subjective thing. You either are her type or you aren't. You can't control attraction with a formula or technique. That's unnatural and not the way people work. That's how computer programs work, not people.

You can use all the PUA technique you want, but if she doesn't like you, then it's not gonna matter. That's the reality. The PUA virtual world seems to be fictitious.

Plus the whole thing is unnatural and feels unnatural. Sure you can make airheads laugh by being cocky and funny. But that's not going to create attraction.


With all due respect Winston

1. You are right, attraction is not a choice but it can be influenced by everything you do and say:

a. If you are not a girl's type or within her consideration range to begin with, it is much tougher but not always impossible. I know women here who married guys they couldn't stand in the beginning because the guy was able to prove himself over time or touch her heart.

b. If you are a girl's type to begin with but make critical mistakes like the ones I mentioned in my last post, she can quickly lose interest in you. I've seen this happen many times including to myself. Also, girls will usually test you at some point and you need to pass. PU theory can help you avoid making these mistakes with girls who give you a chance, pass her shit tests, and better understand where she is coming from.

2. The full body of PU theory is much broader than a few formulas or techniques. A lot of it involves self-development and improvement, better understanding all types of women, and all important action. If I get a yellow belt in Taekwondo and try to fight with it, it probably won't have a material impact on who I can beat. But 2-3 years of regular training + fighting practice and a much higher belt could definitely improve my odds.

3. Some people do not reveal their thoughts about you until you engage them. I've approached cold-as-ice looking girls who turned-out to be friendly and friendly looking girls who shot me down. Action is an important element of success.

4. In the pay-for-play world, I believe the rules change and PU theory is no longer very applicable. For example, at Florida club in Nairobi, some in-demand girls would prefer to go with someone like me over a local punter because a white guy is supposed to be richer and will pay more. In Pattaya, some girls will charge a premium to old or unattractive guys or give a discount to the young and handsome. But real girls in the real world are not so 1 dimensional.
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Postby Winston » Sun May 23, 2010 5:55 pm

FuzzX, that story sounds a bit pretentious and black and white. No guy is liked by everyone. Not even Tom Cruise is.

If there were a formula or technique for creating attraction, everyone would use it. There may be a formula that helps yeah. But it's not easy and doesn't work for everyone.

Every attempt to put humans into formulas fail. History has taught us that. And so has experience.

Like Rock said, it's like a martial art you learn little by little. But even then, it's not going to make a mega difference, though it may help a little. Even if formulas and techniques do exist that create attraction, they are not all powerful and have their limits.

When someone is selling something, they always overexaggerate the claims.

Now love, that's another matter. Surely you agree that "true love" is not controllable by formulas or techniques, don't you? Lots of women love men who do all the wrong things.

You guys are forgetting something. Not all girls like bad boys. It's young ones and airheads that do. I know plenty of girls who do not like bad boys.

Also, just cause a guy is needy doesn't mean he's unattractive. If a girl really loves him, she will not mind his neediness and will also show her neediness to him too. It's only when she isn't into him and is looking for excuses to blow him off does she use his "neediness" as an excuse to reject him further.
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Postby Winston » Sun May 23, 2010 6:15 pm

Additionally,
You guys forget that chemistry, vibes and other intangible unknowns also play a big role. Sometimes you like someone or feel strongly about them for reasons you can't define.

A lot of guys don't like to hear that because their left brain believes in formulas and techniques and things that they can control. But it's true.

In fact, I'd say chemistry is the biggest factor. And that is a very personal thing, because every interaction and mix has its own unique chemistry.

Even if you could control chemistry, it would not be like pushing buttons. It doesn't work that way.

In the end though, isn't it better to be able to be yourself and get girls?

You can't be something that you're not or act in unnatural ways right?

A lot of the rules and formulas that you guys mention might work in theory, but in reality and practice is another matter.

I'd say for the most part, chemistry and looks are what determines attraction. Formulas and PUA techniques might be able to influence it. But they are not the biggest factor.

Make sense?
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

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Postby The_Adventurer » Sun May 23, 2010 10:14 pm

chanta76 wrote:globetrotter,

I never been to China . If I may ask are you white? The reason why I ask is that I notice that for white guys they tend to have more of a privilege status in hooking up with foreign girls in foreign country more so than let say a guy like me who looks Asians. I know Wu will say other wise.


Have you been to the Philippines? Koreans seem to do far better than any other race here from what I have seen. It is true that most of the white guys are older, and many Koreans are students, thus being young and usually in pretty good shape, or excellent shape, but they seem to have it made in Cebu, where I was. Granted, I would see groups of them hitting the gym daily, so they do care about how they look, and they dress nice, as opposed to some of the other foreigners who are fat, hairy, old and dressed like bums, but their success seems pretty much guaranteed.
“b***y is so strong that there are dudes willing to blow themselves up for the highly unlikely possibility of b***y in another dimension." -- Joe Rogan
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Postby The_Adventurer » Sun May 23, 2010 10:29 pm

As for all the PUA stuff, I will say this. I somewhat agree with Winston that you can't create attraction by some formula or "method". I think it is better stated like this: You won't win girls by doing something. You will win girls by being something! I think this is what explains the story of X that is told earlier.

If you win girls by being something, this explains the Asian playboy that is the subject of this thread. If you train in anything for 4-7 days a week, you will likely become very good at it. As mentioned by another poster, if picking up girls is your full time job, you are ALSO likely to become very good at it. Herein lies the secret to the success of the PUA classes. There will always be a few students who adopt what is taught internally. This means, those who learn some approach tricks and pick up lines, but do not actually change who they are will likely fail or give up. But there will always be those who literally change because of what they've learned.

Think about it. Someone mentioned earlier that it is like martial arts. Have you never known someone to totally change internally from practicing martial arts? Have you never seen the difference between students who learn some interesting moves or forms and those who make the entire practice a part of them? Those who make it a lifestyle are the ones who usually end up teaching later.
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Postby chanta76 » Mon May 24, 2010 1:49 am

PUA as other mentioned you have to put ALLOT of work into it to get good at it. Depending upon talent some guys will get better at it than others.

In retrospect allot stuff I learned in PUA is common sense.
Be confident . Don't have limited belief. Doesn't matter if your good looking but if you dress with style that helps. Have passion in life. Be fun and in the moment. Approach woman and have fun ...etc..

By approaching you learn to become more comfortable approach random woman.

In the matter of attraction ..can't be controlled but it can be influence and I have to agree with this.
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Postby chanta76 » Mon May 24, 2010 1:57 am

Terrance,

Part of the reason why Korean is doing well in the Philippines is because of the social economic condition along with the Korean media wave.

I grew up in America all my life and honestly HATED EVERY MOMENT OF IT. I'm not going to go too much into details about why I hated living here but what made it even HARDER FOR ME..was because of being Asian.

As an Asian man in USA we have practical no representation of romantic image . NO sexual image. It gets real old seeing Asian girls with white guys in the states..I mean real old and hearing the penis stereotype gets old too.

I almost killed myself because of this....anyway..white entitlement also extends to Asia to a degree...but that's the way it is with history and who won the war.

I don't see myself going to the Philippines because honestly I don't find the Malay Asian look attractive. I am of Korean back ground...and prefer the eastern looking type but because of work I am here in the states.

From my own experience the PUA did improve my life..so I'm not going to knock it..I did get more dates and had relationship so yeah PUA did help me..

Trust me if PUA failed me ..I be like Wu right now in the some other countries..
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Postby Rock » Mon May 24, 2010 5:47 am

chanta76 wrote:Terrance,

Part of the reason why Korean is doing well in the Philippines is because of the social economic condition along with the Korean media wave.

I grew up in America all my life and honestly HATED EVERY MOMENT OF IT. I'm not going to go too much into details about why I hated living here but what made it even HARDER FOR ME..was because of being Asian.

As an Asian man in USA we have practical no representation of romantic image . NO sexual image. It gets real old seeing Asian girls with white guys in the states..I mean real old and hearing the penis stereotype gets old too.

I almost killed myself because of this....anyway..white entitlement also extends to Asia to a degree...but that's the way it is with history and who won the war.

I don't see myself going to the Philippines because honestly I don't find the Malay Asian look attractive. I am of Korean back ground...and prefer the eastern looking type but because of work I am here in the states.

From my own experience the PUA did improve my life..so I'm not going to knock it..I did get more dates and had relationship so yeah PUA did help me..

Trust me if PUA failed me ..I be like Wu right now in the some other countries..


Great testimony to the value of PU chanta. I wish I had it when I was in school. I know it would have made a huge difference. I really needed help then.

I can imagine it must suck being an Asian male in the States. As far as dating goes, the stereotypes really put you guys down and make black guys look like super studs.

But let me tell you, Korean guys generally have a positive image with women in several Asian countries. Here in Taiwan, modern style Korean soap operas dubbed in Mandarin are really big now and they love the Korean pop stars. Some Japanese companies specialize in helping their local women meet and date South Korean men. In Seoul, you see more well dressed, taller, masculine types of local guys with classical handsome features than in any of the other Asian capitals. South Korea is part of the 'rich Asia club' which contributes to the good image and desirability of its men. And for me, Korean girls are on average, the hottest of all Asians. I turn my head more in Seoul than any other Asian city.

But, it sounds like you already have a decent dating life in the States now. Great for you.
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Postby Rock » Mon May 24, 2010 7:15 am

Winston wrote:Additionally,
You guys forget that chemistry, vibes and other intangible unknowns also play a big role. Sometimes you like someone or feel strongly about them for reasons you can't define.

A lot of guys don't like to hear that because their left brain believes in formulas and techniques and things that they can control. But it's true.

In fact, I'd say chemistry is the biggest factor. And that is a very personal thing, because every interaction and mix has its own unique chemistry.

Even if you could control chemistry, it would not be like pushing buttons. It doesn't work that way.

In the end though, isn't it better to be able to be yourself and get girls?

You can't be something that you're not or act in unnatural ways right?

A lot of the rules and formulas that you guys mention might work in theory, but in reality and practice is another matter.

I'd say for the most part, chemistry and looks are what determines attraction. Formulas and PUA techniques might be able to influence it. But they are not the biggest factor.

Make sense?


No I didn't forget at all about chemistry. But guess what. A girl who has a good impression about you may never let you know. My one and only high school relationship was a result of my sister finding out that a girl in her class thought I was cute and then telling me. In reality, there were probably several girls who liked me enough to go out with me. But I never approached them. PU would have changed this.

Secondly, as you become a better and more confident man and your life habits change, you will probably find more girls being naturally attracted to you. I remember number closing and going out with a somewhat westernized local girl here in my early days. During that date, I tried to get close to her but she was cold and ended the date early. I didn't call her again after that. But about 2 years later, I ran into her by chance and decided to try again. So I got her new number, called her, went out, and intimacy happened later that night. After a few more dates, I asked her point blank why she reacted so differently to me this time. She told me that it was hard to explain but I seemed very strange and unattractive 2 years earlier. Now she really liked me because I was a different person. When I think back to that first date, I remember I made some of the classic PU theory mistakes. My trial and error experience over those 2 years changed me a lot. I was only being myself, my new self.

Quality PU is much more than lines and techniques. It is about becoming a new and better man through lots of conscious effort and work over an extended period of time. So in the end, you are being yourself, your new self. If you think its all left brain formulaic, then you really don't get it. Young average looking guys with zero confidence and no experience may get the most leverage out of this stuff. But it can improve almost anyone's success with women.

You said that chemistry and looks are what determine attraction but PU techniques may be able to influence it. Now for the sake of argument, lets say this statement is true. Moreover, lets assume looks and chemistry cannot be changed. Wouldn't that mean then that the only chance a guy would have to improve his results is to use PU since the other factors are out of his control?

Now forget for a moment about techniques and instead focus on plain action - to act or not. When you don't approach a girl, nothing will happen. You have no chance of getting to know her, date her, or be intimate with her. When you do approach a girl, there is a chance (how low or high is determined by many things) that she will get to know you, and perhaps even date and mate with you. What does it cost you to approach a girl? - The risk of being rejected, of hearing words like 'no thanks', 'sorry its not convenient for me now', 'I have a boyfriend', 'no thanks', 'leave me alone', or something else along these lines. This is not theory, this is reality. Do you think she's going to hit you or call the cops on you? Not likely. You just have to be willing to suffer rejections. Once you realize its not that big a deal, you figure out the upside of the approach might be well worth it, especially if you do what's required to get a decent success rate.
Rock
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