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Do Nonconformist Asians have it the hardest?

For Asian Americans to discuss Asian American issues and topics.

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Do Nonconformist Asians have it the hardest?

Postby Winston » September 30th, 2010, 7:29 am

Question for any nonconformist Asians here:

Do you also feel like it's more difficult for you to be a nonconformist, since other Asians can't even fathom the concept of not following the herd?

Especially Chinese, Japanese, Korean, which are extremely homogenous and conformist. In fact, the word "Chinese" is almost synonymous with the word "conformist" to the point where a "Chinese nonconformist" is an oxymoron, and doesn't really exist, since any one who is a nonconformist in a Chinese body (like me) is basically a non-Chinese in a Chinese body.

Know what I mean?

The weirdness comes when you meet other Asians, and when they see you and greet you, they automatically assume that you are a pure conformist and follower with no independent though, like they are. And you just don't know how to break it to them. It's like ruining their virginity or something. It's like trying to explain yourself to a dog or cat. You know it's futile, but you don't like pretending to be an automaton like them, when you're not.

Really weird. Any of you nonconformist Asians ever experience that?

East Asians are on a totally different frequency band it seems, and a narrow one at that. It's something that can't be explained in words. Sure language has something to do with it, since if you speak and think in a certain language, it changes your face, wavelength, vibe and mental frequency. But since different races are probably different species, genetics must have something to do with it too.

Also, being a non-Asian in an Asian body makes it hard for you to fit in anywhere. Mainstream white people are not truly going to see you as one of them, even if they pretend to accept you, and other Asians won't know what to do with you cause you are so "vibrationally incompatible" (as Icke would put it) that they'd rather not deal with you at all. In Asia, a white person in an Asian body is so freakish that the concept is beyond them. Even if you grew up in a Western country, you are still expected to act Asian and think Asian and have an Asian vibration (which I don't).

Hence no matter how open and friendly I am, people see you as an oddity. It's weird.

To make friends in oriental (chinese, japanese, korean) cultures or anglo (USA, Canada) cultures, you can't just be open and friendly. You've got to break into closed cliques of uptight people and also be vibrationally compatible with them too. If you are missing either one, you're out of luck.

Sucks huh?

Anyone experience the same?

Plus most cultures will not consider you attractive or treat you good, unless you are an Asian female, so you will be among the lowest in terms of desirability in looks. Being an Asian female vs. male makes all the difference in how you are treated.

Sucks huh?
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Postby thekingdom » October 4th, 2010, 11:07 am

I know what you are talking about.
Last edited by thekingdom on October 10th, 2010, 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Winston » October 4th, 2010, 12:57 pm

Really? Then they are more materialistic than the US even lol.

What ethnic Asian are you?

Do you ever get odd looks from conformist East Asians who have a herd mentality and only understand practical things and are very square?
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Postby thekingdom » October 4th, 2010, 1:02 pm

Chinese. I don't really spend time with older East Asians unless they are related to me. And even with them, I don't really have deep conversations about life and my values.
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Postby Winston » October 4th, 2010, 1:21 pm

I don't mean older Asians (actually older Asians are more friendly in that they will have less hang ups about talking to you than younger ones who are usually very stone quiet with strangers, since middle aged people are less hung up about who they talk to in anglo/oriental societies).

I mean do narrow minded Asians devoid of free thought ever come up to you and look at you as if they expect you to be as simple and narrow as them?

It happens to me a lot and it's annoying. Around them I sense that the "holographic matrix" around me has changed, and that my reality is being "contracted" by them.

Are you attuned to energy well?
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Re: Do Nonconformist Asians have it the hardest?

Postby momopi » October 4th, 2010, 4:01 pm

Winston wrote:Plus most cultures will not consider you attractive or treat you good, unless you are an Asian female, so you will be among the lowest in terms of desirability in looks. Being an Asian female vs. male makes all the difference in how you are treated.
Sucks huh?


Non-conformist Asian women can simply choose to marry non-Asian husbands. See Chinese author "San Mao" for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanmao_(author)
http://capiconf.uvic.ca/viewabstract.php?id=98&cf=3

"San Mao’s travel accounts of foreign cultures and life experiences gathered through her living and studying abroad provided post-Mao China with a taste of multiculturalism, and suggested the possibility of not only an expanded consciousness of the world, but a transformation of the way people think about the world and the possibility of being part of it." -- Hongwei Lu


US interracial marriage stats (newly married couples only), 2008:

Image
Image
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Postby Rock » October 4th, 2010, 5:14 pm

thekingdom wrote:I know what you are talking about but in reality, East Asians (Chinese, Koreans, especially) will be more than happy to accept you and even look up to you IF YOU ARE RICH.

In other words, you can be a total eccentric, live part time in Russia, have a Czech mistress, and spend your days painting...and yes, they'll think you're an odd ball. But if you're a multi-millionaire? Then they'll just assume you're a financial genius and entitled to your creative freedom.

Let's face it. In Asia, esp. East Asia, money is sexy.


Interesting point and I think you are right. I believe being wealthy in East Asia gets you genuine respect and admiration, especially if you are self made. Many girls will be very impressed with you just for being smart and capable enough to become wealthy and guys will generally respect you. This contrasts to many other parts of the world where the girls will just view a richer guy as some kind of target to milk and discard, unless he happens to be naturally attractive to boot.

Of course, local rich guys in many non-Asian countries often have commensurate social/political power and can do well without direct payment for that reason. But if some rich foreigner arrives there, locals generally view him as a target and the respect he is shown can be very fake.

Believe it or not, not all East Asian girls who are impressed by richer guys are gold diggers. I believe many are not. They just respect the guy for his business talent and can genuinely fall in love with him. Case in point. I used to date a girl who had an older sister who in a serious relationship with a Taiwan guy who was considered wealthy. The guy invested all his net worth into some China factories. Well, as you can probably guess, he went from riches to rags in just 2 or 3 years, thanks in large part to "Chinese Business Ethics" (ie he was screwed). But the girl didn't leave him, she married him. Not uncommon.
Last edited by Rock on October 4th, 2010, 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do Nonconformist Asians have it the hardest?

Postby Rock » October 4th, 2010, 5:16 pm

momopi wrote:
Winston wrote:Plus most cultures will not consider you attractive or treat you good, unless you are an Asian female, so you will be among the lowest in terms of desirability in looks. Being an Asian female vs. male makes all the difference in how you are treated.
Sucks huh?


Non-conformist Asian women can simply choose to marry non-Asian husbands. See Chinese author "San Mao" for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanmao_(author)
http://capiconf.uvic.ca/viewabstract.php?id=98&cf=3

"San Mao’s travel accounts of foreign cultures and life experiences gathered through her living and studying abroad provided post-Mao China with a taste of multiculturalism, and suggested the possibility of not only an expanded consciousness of the world, but a transformation of the way people think about the world and the possibility of being part of it." -- Hongwei Lu


US interracial marriage stats (newly married couples only), 2008:

Image
Image


The Asian guys need to start hooking-up with the black girls to help even these ratios out.
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Postby momopi » October 4th, 2010, 5:30 pm

Rock wrote:The Asian guys need to start hooking-up with the black girls to help even these ratios out.


IMO immigrant women marrying into the dominant ethnic group is just part of the natural assimilation process, unless if the locals are lower in socio-economic status. From an international competitive perspective, a nation and its ethnic people gain sexual market value when they're stronger and richer.

Here's an interesting article on what Europeans wrote about the Chinese, 100 years ago:

Image

http://www.chinahush.com/2010/10/02/chi ... #more-7346

China, almost without any external influence, has made many great discoveries creating a vast literature in various fields of knowledge. Success achieved by China in agriculture and crafts is truly amazing. Until the latest time the state institutions of China were the most advanced among Asian countries.

But its isolation and neighborhood of barbarians who acknowledged the undisputed superiority of China has produced in this nation self-adoration and contempt to anything foreign, destroyed self-criticism, stopped the progress and became lately the source of many disasters for the country and its people.


Judgment and preferences of Chinese are marked with strong realism. In philosophy he [Chinese] is interested in practical values, rules of behavior, and not in researching the meaning and nature of things. Poetry is also dominated by realism, his fantasy only creates exaggerated images of the real world. Art – being the real world’s reflection – reveals the developed skill of observation of [Chinese] artist and perfect technique; fantastic creations, however, are usually pretentious, lack sense of appropriateness, are weak in regards of general idea and together with that have a scrupulous depiction of little details.


Chinese is a good merchant, economical owner, exemplary farmer but also a strict adept of routine. He is mistrustful, reserved, although very sociable, likes shows and street processions. In spite of egotism, he has a developed sense of solidarity.

Most of trade companies are managed not by individuals but by groups of entrepreneurs.

Plots and secret societies flourish in China and are rarely discovered.


Chinese rarely forgive and forget offence. Like all nations afflicted with chauvinism, Chinese look upon foreigners thinking of them as lower than themselves.


In family father is head and god, the owner of life and death of his family members; but examples of cruelty or abuse of parental power are not that often. Chinese are very loving to their children; special tenderness is spared for sons.


The common traits for all Chinese are their sincere, instinctive attachment to motherland and respect for labor which almost transforms into the cult of labor. For Chinese there is no dirty work. Every craftsman aspires to be an artist in his profession. This respect to any worker results in disgust toward the military art. Chinese don’t distinguish between soldier and bandit. “X thousand of young villains have been recruited and sent to warâ€￾ – often write Chinese chroniclers describing some military campaign. As the Chinese proverb says – “Good iron is not used for nails, good people – for soldiersâ€￾.

Below are some additional excerpts.

On Imperial Examination and its influence on contemporary education:

[Exams] require the knowledge of not only the classic books but also all of commentaries. Student must know the source of some quotation and develop it according to the rules of rhetoric; compose a poem using a given metrical foot with obligatory usage of certain words in specific places.

Nuances are purely technical but dealing with them is so difficult that some apply for exams five and six times and until the old age can’t overcome all scholastic and rhetoric difficulties purposively created by examiners.


General scientific achievements of even brightest Chinese scientists are very scarce. In modern times [reminder – 100 years ago] under the pressure of circumstances curriculum begins to include studying of some applied disciplines and young people are sent abroad for enrichment of their education.


On Industry:

Spirit of innovation, once so notable in China, lately has weakened and in some fields Chinese have been surpassed by their students – Koreans and Japanese.


On Chinese literature:

Chinese are conservative; this is expressed in their literature as well. Classics are eagerly read, re-printed and commented; studying them is the purpose and method of higher education. All new and original is hardly accepted, met with mistrust or self-satisfied indifference. Overcoming it requires either outstanding achievements or luck.

<…>

China has never come through real spiritual revolutions; however, it has never experienced any kind of spiritual restraints, demolition of which would require reformatory efforts.

The press is free, religious tolerance is widespread.
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Postby Repatriate » October 4th, 2010, 6:00 pm

That's a fairly concise appraisal of your average Chinese person back in the 19th century. I'd say the dynamic repression of thought happened sometime after the Yuan dynasty when Chinese became very ethnocentric about the concept of "empire" and culture especially after having endured a rather humiliating period of what amounts to early colonial style rule under Kublai Khan.

There wasn't an outside exchange of empire or ideals so the whole concept of what it means to be Han became more closed and xenophobic. It was steeped in classic neo-confucianist thought and outdated concepts of social order.
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Postby ladislav » October 4th, 2010, 6:01 pm

It is what the Russians , China's neighbor wrote in their Encyclopedia. The Russians are "Europeans" to the Chinese. I wonder what the more Westward Europeans wrote about the Chinese.
I wonder what the Chinese write about the Russians.
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Postby Repatriate » October 4th, 2010, 6:28 pm

ladislav wrote:It is what the Russians , China's neighbor wrote in their Encyclopedia. The Russians are "Europeans" to the Chinese. I wonder what the more Westward Europeans wrote about the Chinese.
I wonder what the Chinese write about the Russians.

The French..Voltaire specifically had pretty good things to say about China back in the 18th century. The french did have a fascination with the art, philosophy, and culture. It pretty much became unfashionable once militarism and the concepts of ethnocentric colonialism came into practice. Once most of europe in the industrial age realized how far the lead was militarily and socially.. started to look down at the backwardness of others.

Just an excerpt of some of the western European musings on Asia and development back in the day...
http://chnm.gmu.edu/revolution/d/273/

I find some of the 18th century observations to be far more profound actually.
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Postby momopi » October 4th, 2010, 9:01 pm

ladislav wrote:It is what the Russians , China's neighbor wrote in their Encyclopedia. The Russians are "Europeans" to the Chinese. I wonder what the more Westward Europeans wrote about the Chinese.
I wonder what the Chinese write about the Russians.


According to the article, it was the Russian edition of a German encylopedia. More specifically, the 6th edition of Meyers Großes Konversations-Lexikon (1902-1908). The 4th edition (1885-1892) is avail online and has an extensive China section:

http://www.retrobibliothek.de/retrobib/ ... kid=100149
http://www.retrobibliothek.de/retrobib/ ... did=100157
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Postby Winston » October 5th, 2010, 10:22 am

Repatriate wrote:That's a fairly concise appraisal of your average Chinese person back in the 19th century. I'd say the dynamic repression of thought happened sometime after the Yuan dynasty when Chinese became very ethnocentric about the concept of "empire" and culture especially after having endured a rather humiliating period of what amounts to early colonial style rule under Kublai Khan.

There wasn't an outside exchange of empire or ideals so the whole concept of what it means to be Han became more closed and xenophobic. It was steeped in classic neo-confucianist thought and outdated concepts of social order.


So you admit then that Chinese are a basically closed people, in culture, personality, etc.? I thought you tried to argue that most Chinese youngsters were open, sociable and hip and easy to meet, like in Latin America/Russia?

Or were you playing devil's advocate when you insinuated that?
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Postby Repatriate » October 5th, 2010, 10:28 am

Winston wrote:
So you admit then that Chinese are a basically closed people, in culture, personality, etc.?

...but this isn't the 19th century Winston and i'm pointing out that their observations are accurate for that time period especially since Chinese in general were going through a serious cultural malaise.

I thought you tried to argue that most Chinese youngsters were open, sociable and hip and easy to meet, like in Latin America/Russia?

I never argued most Chinese youngsters were open or anything like Latin America/Russia as those are different regions of the world. I said that Chinese (esp. Taiwanese) don't fit into your narrow perceptions and are much more diversified in personality and activities than you seem to believe. Just because I argue against your absolute definition doesn't mean I believe in another absolute. I think people exist in gray areas culturally/socially and frequently change according to the ebb and flow of their own whims.
Or were you playing devil's advocate when you insinuated that?

I think you're putting up straw men.
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