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After posting a rant about taipei's nightclub a week before, I got in contact with Rock, who is in Taipei right now. Before going out again last friday, I had a long conversation with Rock on the phone about the overall dating quality in Taipei and our future plans. Rock strongly urged against picking up girls at the club. One, the club was too loud to talk, and second, most of the girls are there for attention. However, since my newly made international friends were going, I figured I was going to go just to hang out with them. Rock advised me to not expect too much from the club but also pointed out the vicissitudes of such situations: Anything can happen.
When I got there, I was not necessarily looking for girls. So I went to the dance floor and had a good time. However, after one hour, I was dead tired and decided to give club pick up one last time. My friend introduced me to two girls he just met last weds, both of them were good-looking.
The girl who was his target is in college in America while the other is from Kaohsiung. I was thinking "Yes. A local girl". As my friend invited them to the dance floor, I followed but was politely rejected by the local girl. I was thinking "Wow, Again. f**k Taiwan". So I left and decided to meet other girls. That was when I learned the art of persistence. Throughout the night, I would see both of the original girls looking at me, especially the San Diego one, even if she was with my friend. So I decided to approach again and utilize my God-given charm.
They bought it. Next thing I know I am sitting between both of them, arm around back, and whispering sweet-nothings. I can tell that both of the girls wanted me, but I did not want to steal my friends girl, so I decided to take the local girl upstairs to the smoking room. We were flirting heavily, and I was touching her all over. She did give me a kiss but told me she would think about makeout when we meet later on. I took the hint and got her number(and her friend's) and left the club. Keep in mind that she is 21 and knows I am 18, don't drink, and don't smoke.
Link to picture:
I am in the second picture in the white.
I am not going to go heavily after this girl, since I know under all that makeup is a different person( I actually busted her balls on that too). And also I am not looking for long-term commitment, though she told me she wanted me to take her out. I am just happy I successfully approached a local girl. And I also have to give alot of the credit to Rock, who told me to change my gameplan by not appearing too needy. So Thank You Rock.
OK, the kid is getting warmed up here lol. We may meet-up later this week to see what more can be done.
Met up with sinbadsailor (SBS) late this afternoon in Taipei to hang-out and approach girls in public areas (street, shops, MRT). We spent a few hours on the prowl.
1. Raw Stats
Cold Approaches: 11
Non-engagements / Rejections: 7
Number Closes: 4
Potential Pearls: 3
Qualified Introducers: 1
2. Qualitative Info
a. SBS: 5'10", newly minted 18 yr. old 1G Taiwanese, speaks native American English and decent conversational Mandarin, looks a bit like Jeremy Lin, lol. His parents didn't allow him to start dating until very recently. He came dressed in shorts and a tank top which I think may have hindered him a bit with some of the target gals.
b. Locations: Shida (1 approach), Dunnan Chenping (2 approaches), Sogo (2 approaches), Ximending (5 approaches), MRT (1 approach)
c. Methodology: I let him choose the targets in all but one case so they were girls he was attracted to at first sight. I usually initiated the approach by asking target some question to get her talking and feeling comfortable. If she engaged me, I would shift gears quickly and come clean with my real purpose- to introduce my friend who was new to Taiwan and looking to meet a nice and attractive local girl for language exchange, outings, etc. Then SBS would move in and join the convo. while I observed the body language, asked certain key questions, and made sure things headed in right direction.
d. SBS Taste: It's hard for me to find definite pattern. He's picky in his own way cus we would pass many hundreds of girls before he would find one who caught his eye. But IMO, some he liked were very cheap and trashy looking while others were genuinely pretty or at least decent. Some were older and one or two may have been over 30. Height doesn't seem to matter to him as long as they aren't too tall and he seems to like the slim or almost even skinny body types in contrast to my preference for tall girls with some curves.
e. Missed Opportunities: There were cases where we moved too slowly and target would get in cab or go into venue would could not enter. There were also several girls SBS liked but were with dates. And in one case, we had to choose between 2 targets going in different directions so missed one of them.
f. Photos: I took photos of Potential Pearls, some with SBS included. I will send them to him and if he likes, he can post links to them on this thread.
Shida: SBS told me he liked one of the girls walking behind us. I turned around, looked at them, and asked where some place was but they were just frigid and clearly did not want to talk => Non-engagement
Dunnan Chenping 1: SBS told me he liked girl at ATM. I waited for her to finish transaction, followed her a bit, asked her where some building was, and then started talking to her about my friend while walking beside her. She took a good look at him but when I got to asking her to be his new friend, she politely shook her head. She was a bit older and may not have felt comfortable. Or maybe she was just married or in serious relationship. => Rejection
Dunnan Chenping 2: SBS pointed out a girl sitting on the floor with her friend reading a book. Just then, the girl got up and comes to book shelf where I was I just say hello and asked her where she's from and what her job is. She was very friendly telling me she's an elementary school teacher from Keelung on summer break. Her (less attractive) friend came over to joing convo. too. I quickly told them my friend who's new to town and trying to learn Chinese was interested in knowing the first one. SBS takes it from there and after a bit more chatting, exchanges information and talks about meeting up with either in Taipei or Keelung. Body language is great and the girl seems excited and down to earth. I would guess her to be early to mid 20s. => Number Close / Potential Pearl
Sogo 1: SBS identified 2 targets he was interested in - one walking through entrance pulling a small suitcase with a friend and another standing outside by herself - dilemma! We decided to go for one outside. Just then, another (Taiwanese) guy approached her but we could tell they don't know each other. In less than a minute, she waved him off so we believed he was also trying to meet her cold. As soon as he was gone, I went up to her, and told her she made a good choice by getting rid of that guy cus my friend is much more interesting lol. She engaged us for a moment but also exhibited uninterested body language and said no to making friends. => Rejection
Sogo 2: As we were between escalators, I noticed a very cute girl working at a stand and smiled at her. She smiled back so I grabbed SBS to stop to talk with her. When I asked her whether or not she thpigjt SBS looks like Jeremy Lin, she says he's cuter! So I easily and confidently convinced her to be his friend. She's mid 20s but looks very youthful. However, she has a boyfriend of several years. With that info., I switched gears and asked her if she has any friends as cute and classy as her who are available. Right away she nodded and saod one of them even works there. She wanted him to meet several of her friends on FB but SBS only has a private account he doesn't share. She they just exchanged phone numbers. => Number Close / Qualified Introducer
Ximending 1: SBS identified a girl with an older woman (her mom) and told me he's interested. I hesitate cus it's a little tougher to initiate in these circumstances. But he seems to really like her so we followed them to a shop and paced around while girl started trying on clothes in dressing room. SBS asked some questions to shop attendant and I started talking to the mom (while daughter was still in dressing room). I got the green light to talk to daughter and also learned she's living in Canada so speaks good English. She came out and talked to us a bit but emphasized that she's going back to Canada in a couple weeks where she lives as a way to softly reject us. => Rejection
Ximending 2: SBS started chatting with a couple girls watching some street show but they didn't really seem interested so he bagged it => Non-engagement
Ximending 3: SBS indentified girl with her friend in booth near us in KFC. As girls were picking up things to go, I went over to talk with them and SBS followed. His target looked a bit curious but friend blocked our efforts and they proceeded to leave. => Rejection
Ximending 4: On way out, we passed 2 people on stairs and SBS told me he's interested in knowing one of them. I told him it looked like a couple (boy and girl) to me but I just saw them with corner of my eye. He told me he thought it was 2 girls. So I went back up the stairs and sure enough, he was right, just that one of them (not the target) was very butch with short boyish hair. So I started talking with target who smiled and exhibited open body language and her butch friend seemed cool too. SBS moved in right away to join and take over (he was starting to get some confidence by then lol). He smoothly number closed. However, one thing stuck out in my mind. When I asked her if it was ok for her to make friends with my friend, she said, "Friend is OK" with emphasis on word friend. I first took that to mean friends but nothing more. So I made sure she was straight (and that butch gal was not her gf lol) and also that she was single. She answered yes to both so perhaps she was just showing a bit of fake reserve not to seem too fast. That will be for SBS to figure out when he continues with text and phone game. => Number Close / Potential Pearl
Ximending 5: SBS pointed out girl he wanted to meet who was walking with her friend. I caught up with them and startrf chatting but they seemed preoccupied and uninterested. I bagged it => Non-engagement
MRT: Waiting for train on way back, SBS saw girl he likes so we stood near her. But she was talking on phone and afterwards listening to music or playing games on her gadget. Train came so I followed her in and grabbed the seat next to her while SBS stood near us. I talked to SBS for a couple minutes then said something to her but she didn't hear or pretended not to hear. Then, the seat on other side of me became vacant so I moved over and motioned for SBS to take my seat next to girl and give it a go. He noticed she was playing some game he's familiar with so he talked loudly enough to get her attention. She took out her left earphone, and he started chatting to her about games and other things they seem to have in common. He was doing fine and they were very engaged so I get up and movef away to take some photos of them. After 5 minutes and several stops, he got her digits and then we alighted. => Number Close / Potential Pearl
If I were in SBS's shoes and had his goals, I would:
- try to get telephone contact (not just texting) going with all 3 Potential Pearls, get to know their specifics better, warm them up accordingly, and when all seems right, go for the private date. With successful phone work, the dates can go very well and escalate quickly! But sometimes you find out in early phase that girl has a bf or is resistant for a myriad of other reasons. In those cases, you don't need to bother trying to meet her and have saved a lot of time. Point is, phone is fast, clear, and efficient. She can also feel you as a person and start to develop feelings if you are a good talker. OTOH, texting is much more impersonal and also can be very slow. Sometimes people take hours or days to reply.
- work that Qualified Introducer who had a very good initial impression by text. Better not to call in case bf is jealous type. Just ask about getting to know some of her friends and what way would be best. If she brings-up specific girls, perhaps get into her FB page anonymously (letting her know you will do this) and checking out the friends she mentioned. If any catch your eye, ask her for an introduction in way she deems best.
- get in habit of approaching solo (opportunistically with no wing man) whenever unaccompanied high quality (exceptionally attractive) prospect appears in everyday life.
4. Taipei as a place to meet attractive women? Handicap vs. USA? This bit of work we put in today may or may not yield some fruits for SBS. That remains to be seen. I do hope he will proactively follow through with these leads as far as they go and keep us in the loop on results. But 10 approaches is not much in the way of data points. We would need several dozen or even more than 100 to begin to get a picture of what achievable here for a guy like him Moreover, with time and experience, his Taiwan specific people reading ability and engagement skills should improve significantly. In any case, I would say today combined with his club experience the other day is a very encouraging start!
Interesting pickup report and so after 11 total approaches you got 4 numbers, 3 solid with real probability for followup? That's not bad actually. Especially when it comes to cold approaching in Taiwan which is outside the norm for most people. Shorts and tank top is terrible for daygame.
Don't forget to remind him that girls who say they have boyfriends can be added to a social circle so they can introduce him to their cute friends.
I do find it a bit odd that you did the initial approach though. I think he should have opened initially and you come in to wing only if there was more than one girl. I think having two unfamiliar foreign guys talking with her in the street decreases overall comfort. While that may not be a problem for just casual conversation in the back of her mind it may cause her to not want to follow up later. This is especially the case with Taiwanese people who are much more flighty about this type of interaction.
1. I think initial results are encouraging. We only spent 5 hours which included 2 meals, several legs of transport, plus a lot of our own time chatting. Contrast that to the amount of work recent 6'1" buff NE Asian American had to put in Stateside to get his 1 lay per month. With a bit more practice and polish, SBS can probably outperform those numbers easily with a lot less work and achieve similar or better quality as long as he properly discriminates his choice of targets.
2. Since he had the shorts and tank top on, best association I could come up with was Jeremy Lin. SBS told me that other friends have also told him he looks like the basketball star.
3. The one gal who has a bf and was very friendly is what I designated as a Qualified Introducer. She has friends to introduce him to and is qualified because she's attractive, young, and seems very willing. SBS really needs to create a new FB page specifically for this effort. He can use a nickname and refrain from posting clear photos if he's worried about being discovered by his family members.
4. SBS is very new to this and needed to have it demonstrated a few times. Remember, a lot of Taiwanese including Winston believe you are not supposed to approach strangers in public, that it's just not allowed. When SBS and I first met at Shida, we ran into a couple of his Taiwanese American classmates who invited us to go to Myst (a club) that night. Later SBS told me that while those guys were cool with trying to meet girls at clubs, they didn't dare try daygame in Taiwan.
I've always maintained that you have to break the rules and get out of your own and society's comfort zone within certain limits if you want to push for maximum results. Also, as a foreigner, I'm given certain license to break such norms. People don't expect the same from me as they would a local. Because many Taiwanese erroneously perceive USA and the west as an open environment where its common for men and women to approach each other as strangers in public.
Keep in mind, I met my last 3 LT Taiwanese gfs through cold-approach. And also consider Monkro's numbers - Under 100 cold approaches, over 12 pearls, a few hook-ups, and 1 full blown intimacy. And he's a shorter, dark skinned foreigner who speaks almost no Chinese and is already mid-30s. Yet I would say his targets were on average of better quality than many of the ones SBS picked-out yesterday. Oh, and don't forget my former French tenant. I never went out with him but the guy would bring home a different club girl every 2 weeks or so and also had certain local classmates at his uni here interested in him.
Just because a girl may not be totally comfortable at first does't mean follow-up won't happen. I would say it's more important to 'disturb' her emotions in a certain way, so that she thinks about you more after the interaction is over. I remember one girl I approached some years ago turned me down point blank and was even nervous to point of shaking a bit. But I had presence of mind to hand her my name card anyway. A whole month later, I got an email out of the blue from her, followed-up with a few exchanges, got her digits, worked her on phone, and started dating her within 2 more weeks. That very uncomfortable girl worked out because somehow, I manged to plant a seed in her head.
5. What we did yesterday is what I consider a sloppy and rushed 'push' method. We went out with explicit intent of meeting a bunch of girls in fairly short space of time. This is not my preferred method. Normally, when I'm at stage where I'm open to meeting Taiwan girls, I follow what I consider an opportunistic 'pull' method. I go about my business and daily activities. In the rare event I come across a girl who really catches my eye and who appears approachable (alone or just with maybe one same sex companion, not too much in a hurry, etc.), I watch her a bit, formulate an off-the-cuff strategy, and give it my best shot. I find the quality of my approaches under such scenarios are higher because I feel deep inside that I'm being genuine to one specific target, not just some 2-bit foreigner on the prowl shotgunning a bunch of random gals.
6. SBY is just getting started, will be leaving Taiwan by late August,and really just wants some intimacy or hook-ups. For me, Taiwan's real value is as a place to find quality LT prospects and eventually a partner. There are better places for ST release. But having said that, SBS has enough going for him here that his goals are probably doable. In his case, I think he could also trawl the mainstream clubs (esp. immediate outside areas to save time and money) and perhaps even hit-up niche places - foreigner focused like Brass Monkey, very young like Baby 18, or much older such as Carnegies or perhaps Ziga Zaga.
You should tell him to wear a Houston Rockets Jeremy Lin jersey with team shorts and walk up to girls using the opener "Do you think I look like Jeremy Lin? People look at me strange in this country." Then game them normally as if he wasn't dressed in full Rockets team regalia. If you blurred out faces and secretly filmed it like those Simple Pickup guys I guarantee you it'd be a big hit on youtube and hilarious. Call it "Jeremy Lin" Pickup.
That's true you are allowed leeway for faux paux. However as soon as he opens his mouth they should at least make the connection that he's an ABC and give him some leeway.
What ethnicity is Monkro? If he's doing it as indian or something then that's definitely hard mode gaming in Taiwan.
I do think girls can sense this sort of thing too. I guess when you're out solely on prowling missions they might notice you're a bit nervous or more eager than usual. Nervous energy just isn't good most of the time. When you're just doing your daily thing you already have a real purpose so maybe you're more relaxed.
I would definitely like to read more about his development. He's starting from 0 pick up experience too which should be interesting.
Rock basically hit on all the important points regarding our night out. I will add a few things though.
1. Keep in mind that Rock was a foreigner(meaning he looked like one) and definitely helped with the almost all the approaches. Taiwanese girls give a lot of leeway for foreigners with regards to their behavior. An great example that strengthens this claim is my approaches today. I decided to go to city hall to continue where Rock and I left off. I found two suitable groups, which unfortunately all failed. When I stepped out of eslite, I saw an 8, which to Rock's case would be an rarity, give me a glace that was more than the usual, so I decided to approach the group. I was so engrossed by the way this target looked that I forgot she was with 4 butch women. And by damn did I get blown out by those lesbians quick. When I was working them, my target was the only one interested, and the butch women quickly blew me off and told me to leave. Words can't describe how much I missed Rock at that moment. Damn!
2. Rock's suggestion to transform into an opportunist rather than a prowler will importune me. I have a very busy schedule, and I simply cannot waste, or rather invest my time to jumping at opportunities. Don't get me wrong, I would love to do that. But I find picking a specific time to go on the prowl, with its economy and convenience, will suit me the best, even if it does not yield as much results as the opportunist method. (keep in mind my thinking changes with respect to results, so if I really am having a hard time I might accommodate.
3. Right now I am focusing on my verbal reactionary skills. When Rock was opening sets, his verbal communication ability was so elite that he kept the girls engaged, which proves to be my biggest challenge. I find that I am much more talkative and witty in the club, simply because I have a reason to talk to strangers there. Clubs are designed for people to meet. Isn't it?
4. Hahahah the Tank top and shorts. Yes I will change to a more proper attire next time. LOL
5. Another one of my challenges is being a Lone Wolf. I need a wingman who can disarm some of my target's friends. However, I realize that the idea may be harder to actualize, so I will have to barrel through it. Anyhow, I would love to hit Taipei City hall with Rock, since I found most of the girls there good-looking. Ximen may be too young for me( I am drawn to older women).
6. I guess my type would be a girl with a beautiful face, which include big eyes, straight nose, nice teeth. I don't really care that much about how big the breasts or ass, as opposed to Rock. I prefer girls that are dolled-up and are wearing skimpy clothes( Im sorry if I sound superfical, but I am young). I love when a girl have skinny, smooth legs and feet.
7. Something about older women 30+ just turn me on sometimes. I swear.
It sounds to me that you're getting blown out due to your relative inexperience and not so much the fact that it's Rock being the foreigner. You should not rely on mental crutches that it's all due to Rock or have insecurities about your pick up. Especially if you want to succeed. I'm sure they are more inquisitive about having an obvious foreigner approach them initially but you can probably build the same curiosity when you express you're an ABC during your opener conversation with them. Just open it as "Excuse me, i'm new to Taiwan and i'm an Asian-american. What is there to do around here? Btw my name is __insert__ I admit I stopped you because I think you're pretty cute etc.. etc.." If your Mandarin is ok I think they can at least detect you're not lying about being an ABC from your general language ability.
By the way one hot girl amidst 4 cave trolls is a really hard one to do on your own. I think even most experienced guys would have a difficult time with that because one angry butch cockblock is bad enough but 4?? Forget it that's a waste of time. You need a really good wing to distract. You also made the biggest newbie mistake ever which is to ignore the friends and lock in on the girl you have tunnel vision for. That will fail almost every time. Even if she was pretty decent looking friends without ugly woman insecurity issues they would have still dragged her away.
As a newbie you should avoid approaching big groups because you will likely just keep getting blown out. I know some guys say approach everyone but IMO that's more about technique and confidence building. It's more practical to approach what you can realistically close with right now which is like a pair of girls or girls in static environments (sitting in a cafe, browsing bookstore, etc..)
Just invest in a nice pair of fitted jeans and a clean t-shirt without something silly on it like a cartoon character or whatever.
if you need to go shop for cloths, there's a large garment district near Rehe night market:
Buyer beware -- the quality of the clothing there can vary widely.
Yes, well dressed and stylish Indian American. He's a fan of many of your posts too. And he was curious what you meant by 'hard mode gaming in Taiwan'.
BTW, he's supposed to come back to Taipei around September and perhaps stay long term here.
1.Talking to strangers in Taiwan is a good exercise to help you lose the fear of harmlessly breaking one of the restrictive social norms here. But given the short duration of your visit, you should quickly decide what your key goal is and focus on it. Are you going for intimacy with a girl you find attractive or are you hoping to develop something with a girl who is exceptionally beautiful to you?
2. My impression from what I've read and what you've said so far is that you are gunning for the shorter term fast route to intimacy option If that's it, you really should be following up with the 3 pearls from our daygame session plus the gal(s) you met at Luxy. With Taiwanese/Chinese girls, mid-stage game can be key. Those numbers are qualified leads. But they usually cool quickly if you don't escalate (打鐵趁熱).
Best thing you can establish is voice channel as in call the girl and hope that she is willing to chat with you on the phone to get to know you better. You can augment this with FB/What's App/Line/Text chats but if you get her on phone when she's in a relaxed state (at home in evening before bed for example), and you are good at phone seduction, you can get her to start thinking about you involuntarily. A few short sessions of this done properly can often lead to her being ready to get intimate with you by the time you meet her again. Some Taiwan gals may need 2 or 3 dates to get there even if u r doing all the right things but that should be the maximum.
If you don't follow-up on leads and haven't been lucky enough to achieve an instant one-night stand at the clubs , then you will just end-up going home in August with a bag full of phone numbers. Is that what you want?
3. If u feel confident approaching and engaging girls at clubs, then go for it. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Use what works best for you. Just make sure you measure that with ultimate results, not comfort.
4. If I saw an exceptionally attractive girl that I really wanted to know (the way you saw that 8 ), I think I would do the following:
a. Watch her and her friends for awhile while trying to come-up with some excuse to talk to them (something they were wearing, talking about, etc.)
b. Prepare my business card or piece of paper with my telephone, email, etc. along with a friendly note telling her to call or email me.
c. When I was mentally prepared, I would go over, engage them, and if all went well, go for the establishing contact and number close within a few minutes.
d. If they made moves to block me or even start to leave, I would quickly move to Plan B - calmly put the piece of paper in her hands while smiling warmly, look her in the eye, and say something like I can see now is not a good time to talk but I would like to know you better when it's more convenient. Call or email me, ok? While I did all this, pay careful attention to her body language to get clues as to how well I was doing and whether or not I might have planted a seed in her mind. Ideally, you would get a reaction along the lines of what Jane Burham gives Ricky Fritts in "American Beauty" right after he introduces himself for first time to her and her cock-blocking friend Angela.
Hah that's cool. Hi Monkro.
Well, from what I know of my Taiwanese relatives and from casual conversations i've had in the past I believe many Taiwanese have prejudices when it comes to Indians, Africans, and SE Asians. When it comes to the prejudice hierarchy i'd say Indians>SE Asians>Africans.
However, the TW prejudice against Indians isn't nearly as strong as it is in Thailand. Most TW don't really have a frame of reference when it comes to Indians aside from the common stereotypes. I assumed it is a bit more difficult for him than other foreigners there which is what I meant by hard mode. I'd define any place which confers a racial disadvantage as being hard mode gaming. ie. Asian man in the U.S. Whereas an average white guy in the U.S. would be on normal mode and in the Philippines very easy mode. Kind of like a video game setting.
I like stories of people who do pickup as a fish out of the water though..ie. Kai in China. I think the real friendliness of the women can be ascertained more accurately when they're faced with a person or situation that's either negatively stereotyped or outside their frame of reference.
Thanks for the interesting report guys.
Rock seemed to have completely given up on me getting to know young Taiwanese women, after we finished that one approach at the Eslite bookstore. We also could have tried Ximending and Shilin, which are both popular hangout spots for Taiwanese youths.
I'm not that much older than SBS, only a few years more. Yet Rock's description of him seems to show that he's a completely different breed from me.
Is SBS still in Taiwan? I'm going to stop over in Taipei for a few more days, and would be happy to meet up with him if he'd like.
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