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Jon Ronson on conspiracies

Discuss conspiracies, mysteries and paranormal phenomena.

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Jon Ronson on conspiracies

Postby fschmidt » Wed May 21, 2014 6:40 am

Normally I wouldn't post about conspiracies, but obviously this is a topic I discussed with Winston when we met. I very much like the stuff Jon Ronson has written on this topic. I think he investigated these things with an open mind. The basic take-away for me is that humanity is crazy, and the elite are just as crazy, if not more so. Anyway, read his book Them: Adventures with Extremists and here is one video he did:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDVbyRJmvds[/youtube]
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Postby Winston » Wed May 21, 2014 7:16 am

Yeah, fschmidt has a different take on conspiracies that is worth considering. He shared it with me. I'll try to summarize what he said.

The conspiracy movement makes you think that a big conspiracy being responsible for everything is the only explanation that makes sense. But fschmidt has a more down to earth explanation for the craziness in America and the world. And that is - corruption. Corruption at all levels, in the mainstream and within the elite. When you understand this, there is no need for a conspiracy, because America at all levels is corrupt and sold to the highest bidder. So according to him, corruption is a far more sensible and down-to-earth explanation than some big Illuminati conspiracy.

He also said that he has met people in the elite before and that they are so ruthless that they will not even trust each other, let alone conspire with other elites. They may work together sometimes on mutual aims and agendas. But they do not actively cooperate together on every issue and plan like David Icke and Alex Jones claim. It's too implausible.

But fschmidt, what about all the quotes about the NWO that the elites talk about? Do you think they are really planning a one world government? Why do they talk about it? Isn't that evidence for a conspiracy?

See this documentary which contains many clips from world leaders, politicians and media people that talk about the NWO. Isn't this an admission of their plans?

Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO24XmP1c5E[/youtube]
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Postby fschmidt » Wed May 21, 2014 7:21 am

Winston, your video is pretty long so maybe I will watch it on shabbat. The thing I like about Jon Ronson's video, above, is that Alex Jones is also in it and both of them saw exactly the same thing but each had a radically different interpretation of what they saw. It shows how people can interpret the same information in very different ways.
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Postby MrPeabody » Wed May 21, 2014 1:21 pm

I have mentioned several times that the illuminati idea is just entertainment and Alex Jones is an entertainer. Do you seriously think there is any truth on the Internet? You need facts and not youtube videos. The elites obviously coordinate. Look at immigration where every developed country is being forced to accept massive and dangerous third world immigration. That just doesn't happen. It is planned and agreed on by non elected entities. And it happens even though it is unpopular. The people have no say in it. You can see that democracy is a joke because people aren't allowed to make the important decisions that affect their lives.
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Postby fschmidt » Wed May 21, 2014 7:40 pm

Winston wrote:He also said that he has met people in the elite before and that they are so ruthless that they will not even trust each other, let alone conspire with other elites. They may work together sometimes on mutual aims and agendas. But they do not actively cooperate together on every issue and plan like David Icke and Alex Jones claim. It's too implausible.

I just happened to watch something that illustrates this very well.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ti ... 06611.html
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Postby gsjackson » Thu May 22, 2014 9:37 am

There is much merit to fschmidt's theory. It's often helpful to think of the United States -- all its institutions and most of its people -- as a continuing criminal enterprise.
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Postby Winston » Fri May 23, 2014 6:52 am

I just watched the Jon Ronson documentary. It was interesting but I think I've seen it before.

I agree with fschmidt that conspiracies are greatly exaggerated. While conspiracies do exist and elites do commit crimes in secret, the picture portrayed by Alex Jones and David Icke is greatly exaggerated. But pretty much all belief systems, even mainstream ones, are exaggerated. It seems to be human nature to exaggerate and oversimplify things.

fschmidt does not claim that conspiracies don't exist, just that some conspiracies are plausible while others are too fantastic.

This is true of New Age beliefs as well. For example, read the popular New Age book "The Celestine Prophecy" and you will see that while it does contain a lot of great truths, lessons and wisdom, it also exaggerates with fantastic claims and tales as well. The insights in the book do make sense and are mostly true. However, the part at the end where they use the lessons to dematerialize their bodies into another dimension so that their pursuers in the jungle cannot see them, is wacky, far-fetched and not plausible.

Religion is the same. While the Bible contains great truths and wisdom, it also contains wacky claims and unbelievable stories, as well as dangerous ideas.

To Fschmidt:

Nevertheless, I would advise that you at least hear people like David Icke out. He is easy to understand and one of the most talented speakers in the conspiracy movement. I would suggest that you listen to one of his mega 8 hour lectures to get the full gamut of his message, which covers many areas. You gotta at least listen to his full message first before you are qualified to judge him.

You gotta understand that David Icke's 8 hour presentations are not filled with all bullshit and zero evidence. He does present a lot of good evidence in his long presentations that are interesting and make sense and are worth considering. So you should at least hear him out before judging him. Anyone who listens to him usually agrees that he is right about a lot of things.

My favorite of his mega lectures is the one called "Human Race Get Off Your Knees: The Lion Sleeps No More". It's usually on YouTube, but sometimes it gets taken down and re-uploaded again. So do a search for it. If you don't have time to watch his 8 hour presentations, then at least watch his 90 minute presentation at Oxford Union. It's on YouTube under "David Icke Oxford Union". It gives a good overall summary of his message and may inspire you to watch his longer presentations.
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Postby fschmidt » Fri May 23, 2014 9:46 am

I remember that Jon Ronson covered David Icke in his book "Them", so I looked for a video about this. And I found this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2ypYcZ7qfw[/youtube]

This video is really great, even better than the one I posted above. David Icke comes off as slightly crazy, but quite likable and very presentable. He is clearly harmless and should have right to give his views regardless of how inaccurate they may be. But what is much more interesting in the video is how liberal groups like the Jewish Anti-Defamation League and the Green Party try to censor David Icke. Members of these groups are pure scum. They all deserve to be murdered for being such intolerant sleazy creatures. Seeing how these groups interact with David Icke shows how someone like him could come to believe in lizard people, because it is hard for a normal person to accept that regular human beings can naturally be such scum. But when you see members of these liberal groups in this video, it's clear that there is no elite guiding them. They are just scum, plain and simple.
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Postby Winston » Fri May 23, 2014 12:00 pm

I saw that a long time ago. It's called "David Icke: The Lizards and the Jews". Yeah the people there trying to egg him for anti-semitism were scum, especially that young group from Canada. WTF are they thinking? They seem wacked.

There's another documentary you should see called "David Icke: Was he right?" It shows a lot of David Icke's predictions that came true.

Anyhow, I still think you should watch one of David Icke's full presentations to really give him a fair shake. Either one of the 8 hour ones or the 90 min one at Oxford that I mentioned above.

It's not fair to judge a man without hearing what he has to say first. After hearing his full presentations, people usually have a lot higher opinion of him.
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Postby fschmidt » Sat May 24, 2014 2:31 am

Winston, please post a link to ONE video that you want me to watch, and I will watch it and comment.
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Postby Jonny Law » Sat May 24, 2014 3:20 am

All human beings on this planet earth are not perfect. History is filled with both Truth and Lies. If anyone has ever had a news article about them they would know that there are Truths and Lies in the article. David Icke is no different.

Some things he says I do not agree with because I do not believe that the Elites need Blood Drinking Lizard-Men to help them. And I do not believe that all the Elites are secret Shape-shifting alien lizards who live in underground caves and are from outer-space. That is just my opinion.

Cornfed did say that Blacks were created to be the employees of Space Aliens to work their gold mines. Maybe Cornfed and David Icke are right I doubt it but who really knows.

If Cornfed is right I do think it is wrong to hate all blacks because the are secret employees (slaves) of Space Aliens to mine earth gold for their home planet. And I think if you do hate black people you should be have no problem finding better reasons.
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Postby Winston » Sat May 24, 2014 7:21 am

fschmidt wrote:Winston, please post a link to ONE video that you want me to watch, and I will watch it and comment.


Ok then here is David Icke's lecture at the Oxford Union Debating Society that I told you about. It is almost 2 hours long and is a great introductory overview of his research and message. I know you don't have time for one of his mega 8 hour lectures. So start with this one. And if you like it, then maybe you can see some of his more extensive presentations. This one is perfect for newbies to conspiracy research. Watch all of it and pay attention to all his points. Then tell me whether you think he's crazy or brilliant. You will definitely lean toward the latter after you see this.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d88yEAZ_zKM[/youtube]
Last edited by Winston on Tue May 27, 2014 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jonny Law » Sat May 24, 2014 8:50 am

Awesome video Winston.

I also found a site that should help explain where you can find Atlantis. The Azore Islands off the coast of Africa and Europe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ5wWyC04h4
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Postby jamesbond » Sat May 24, 2014 4:29 pm

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Postby fschmidt » Sat May 31, 2014 3:57 am

Winston wrote:Ok then here is David Icke's lecture at the Oxford Union Debating Society that I told you about. It is almost 2 hours long and is a great introductory overview of his research and message. I know you don't have time for one of his mega 8 hour lectures. So start with this one. And if you like it, then maybe you can see some of his more extensive presentations. This one is perfect for newbies to conspiracy research. Watch all of it and pay attention to all his points. Then tell me whether you think he's crazy or brilliant. You will definitely lean toward the latter after you see this.

I watched one hour of this, and that is enough. I didn't hear one new fact that I didn't know or one practical suggestion. What I heard was his interpretation of facts, which I disagree with. It all seems like a kind of religion, this belief in some mysterious conspiracy. But unlike successful religions, I don't see how this one does any good. It's easy to just blame some elusive elite and do nothing, and that's where this religion leads, and probably why it is popular with modern people whose main goal in life seems to be to seek excuses to do nothing.
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