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No planes on 9/11? Interesting theories and clues

Discuss conspiracies, mysteries and paranormal phenomena.

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No planes on 9/11? Interesting theories and clues

Postby Winston » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:10 pm

Check this out. It is a pretty interesting logical breakdown and deduction of the No Plane Theory of 9/11.

http://www.911closeup.com/index.shtml?ID=71

Why they didn't use planes

Sometimes people ask me "why would they use missiles or whatever and run the risk of being caught out ? If they're going to sell a story about planes, why not make it as convincing as possible and use real planes" ?

It's a silly question, because in the face of direct visual and forensic proof that they didn't use planes (mostly supported by what little witness evidence we have), speculations about their thinking and planning are meaningless.

Nevertheless, since we live in extremely silly times, I'm going to address this question on its own terms.

Put yourself in the position of the perps. You have to think through what could go wrong in each possible scenario and then decide which scenario poses the smallest risk.

You want to sell a story about hijacked planes.

At the first level of decision making, you have two choices.

1) Actually use planes.

2) Use missiles or whatever the blobs 11 thing is, and convince people that they were planes.

Lets first look at the second scenario. You have the media on your side to tell the story. What could go wrong?

1) Witnesses might see that they were not planes and report it.

Well this has actually happened, but it seems that nobody takes any notice. The myth of "thousands of witnesses" to a big plane strike keeps getting trotted out on the basis of a circular assumption. "Because big jets were there, then people must have seen them - because people saw them, that proves they were there."

Clearly the perps thought about how to minimize the problem of contrary witness reports, and came up with a simple but effective plan.

This problem is easy to minimize. The first strike happens, and because the object is small and fast and unexpected, no-one is too sure what it is, or whether they saw it correctly. A few witness reports go to air reporting missiles or small planes or no craft at all, but there is only an 18 minute window for this to occur before the whole world sees a big jet live on TV - using commercially available real time animation technology. This distracts the media from interviewing many witnesses to the second strike, because everyone is fixated on the video replay. Those few witnesses who might get a moment with the media, then lack confidence in what they saw, because once again, the object was small, fast and unexpected. Seeing the TV replay - which was instantly available - would make most people think that they just didn't see it properly. The few who remain unshakable in their belief that it was not a large plane are easily shouted down and drowned out by the endless replays. In addition the airlines release a statement saying that they've lost two big jets and any witness dissent is *instantly* - the moment the second strike happens - marginalized almost to the point of oblivion.

This is not speculation. Read through the transcripts of broadcasts as they unfolded between about 8.47 and 9.30 and you will see that this is *exactly* what happened. From the moment the second strike occurred, anyone who tried to say that it was not a large jet immediately had a TV replay shoved in their face.

What little witness evidence was gathered in the brief time available between the two strikes was not enough to do any real damage, and everything after that was corrupted by everybody having TV replays of the second jet shoved in their face as soon as they opened their mouths.

In that brief period between the two strikes, there was only one witness who said a large jet - and that just happened to be the vice prez of CNN, which of course is a major player in the scam - just as pivotal as the govt.

So we can see that the problem of contrary witnesses, while a minor inconvenience is easily overcome with some good planning.

Again, this is not speculation. The successful execution of this plan has been tested ion the real world - and it works. The scenario I have outlined exactly fits with the documented record of the events.

Once the sheeple factor sets in, everyone is chanting "what about the people who saw it ? " without ever bothering to check what those people actually did report. And if they do check, the numbers of reports are not high enough to inflict major damage on the official story. What little there is overwhelmingly supports something other than a big jet, but there wasn't enough time to gather enough numbers for this to be a significant evidence factor. And as for the ordinary person on the street - most of them would be easily convinced that they just didn't see it properly. Some might have lingering doubts or suspicions, but would be quickly silenced by ridicule and denial from the overwhelming pressure of the TV footage, and the whole world trying to convince them that they just didn't see it properly. Most would eventually come to believe that themselves.

So - that problem is easily dealt with. No cover story solves everything, and doubtless there are still some mutterings of doubt and suspicion amongst some people who were there, but it isn't enough to cause a serious problem.

Now to the other problem.

Someone might look at the videos and see what's really there. Which is exactly what Rosalee has done. And people just go into mind controlled denial. The alternative media is flooded with endless debunkers. The perps knew our collective psychology well. They certainly wouldn't be happy with the groundswell of awareness which Rosalee has kick-started, but it looks very manageable compared to the problems I'm about to outline with the strategy of using real jets.

Again, this is not speculation. The way that both of these problems have been handled has been tested in the real world, fits exactly with the documented record, and the fact that I am even needing to write this, 3 years after Rosalee first busted the video evidence, is testimony to how wisely the perps judged the choice of strategy.

Now lets look at the other choice - using real jets.

This immediately splits into two sub-choices 1) Pilot them with suicide pilots 2) Remote control them.

The problem with the first choice is obvious and I think most people on this list have already accepted the absurdity and the monstrous difficulties of such a scenario, so I won't go into them here.

Remote control.

Before addressing the problems with that, the scenario splits into more -sub-choices.

1) Hijack a real flight with real passengers aboard. 2) Launch a plane from somewhere else and pass it off as a real flight.

Basically, the choices here split into the option of crashing a plane with passengers aboard or with no passengers aboard. Both possibilities create potentially insurmountable problems in the cover up - and a reduced likelihood of the crash being successfully targeted to begin with.

Let's look at the latter problem. While it's certainly feasible to remote control a large jet into the towers, it's a high precision targeting job for an aircraft with very limited maneuverability. There's a significant risk that the plane won't hit its target properly. That it will hit some other building, just clip its wing on the tower and crash into the streets or cause a cascade of damage on other non targeted buildings, miss altogether and finish up in the Hudson, still reasonably intact - all kinds of risks.

Whatever the calculated likelyhood of a successfully targeted crash, it would have to be significantly lower than that of a missile or blobs- thing, which is specifically engineered for such precision strikes.

Even the smallest increase in risk of the target not being hit properly would be completely unacceptable, given the easily manageable nature of any problems associated with the alternative scenario.

And missing the target is only the beginning of the problem. What about the aftermath ? Once it misses the target, there's a significant risk that the aircraft may crash in such a manner that it's reasonably intact. Rescue workers and emergency services who are completely innocent of the scam, and ordinary people wanting to help out are going to reach the wreckage before any perpsters, given that where it crashed couldn't be foreseen.

And what are they going to find ? Two choices. A plane with no -one in it. How are the perps going to explain that, huh ? Or a plane with passengers. This raises even more problems. Using a plane with passengers creates two more sub-choices.

1) Hope that all the passengers get killed in the crash, so there's no survivors to talk or hope that the perps can get to them first and knock them off before they do talk.

2) Kill them before the crash with a timed release of gas into the aircon system. Which of course leaves more forensic evidence to cover up, when the bodies are examined. Imagine the massive operation needed to get enough perps swarming over the wreckage quickly enough to control what the media,innocent rescue workers or survivors would start blabbing before the spin sets in. Far worse than anything a few witnesses could say in the 18 minutes between the two tower strikes.

These problems are not limited to the scenario of the aircraft not crashing as they were meant to. If the planes were successfully crashed into the towers, its still possible - although not very likely - that there could be survivors. Nevertheless, even assuming that everyone was killed, real crashes with real people leave real bodies, they don't just vapourize like in the S11 cartoon. So you have hundreds of retrievable bodies to worry about. If they were killed with gas prior to the crash, then you have the same forensic cover up nightmare as in the scenario where the plane misses its target.

And if you avoid this problem by hoping that everyone is killed in the crash, you face the horrible risk that there will be dozens of survivors to try to shut up - unlikely if the plane hits the target properly - but you don't know that for sure.

In addition, real planes leave real wreckage - unlike the S11 cartoon - which means real flight recorder boxes to be found and more stuff to hush up, involving more innocent officials to pressure. Of course, enormous pressure can be brought to bear, but the problem is how much would spill out before the spin gets into action. All of this is far worse than what a few witnesses could say in the 18 minutes between the strikes, and what a marginalized researcher can post on her website, hoping that people take notice.

As you can see, the scenario of using real planes creates a logistical nightmare compared to the piddling problem of a few witnesses to the craft, and easily marginalized conspiracy nuts analyzing video - easily suppressed by a compliant media.

In committing a crime, the idea is to leave as little mess as possible, because every bit of mess is a potential clue. Even in the event of a successfully targeted crash, real aircraft, scattering wreckage and bodies everywhere creates an enormous amount of mess to cover up compared to the relatively neat problem of a few witnesses and a few conspiracy nuts trying to tell people what the video shows.

The problems of the real plane scenario are enormously compounded by the possibility of a botched crash, which itself is a significantly increased risk when using big lumbering jets not specifically designed for that task as opposed to precision weaponry which is far more reliable. In the unlikely event of a missile going off course, there would be far less mess to leave clues, and an easier co-opting into a plan B story - like terrorists stealing missiles and firing them at NY.

This explanation should hopefully put an end once and for all to the plane hugging fantasy - but then, these are very silly times in which we live.
Last edited by Winston on Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Enishi » Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:10 pm

Um....huh? O.o

I'm openminded to some conspiracy stuff, but seriously, if it wasn't planes that hit the towers there would have been thousands of eye witnesses!
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Postby Winston » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:01 pm

Check out what a Boeing rep said about the maximum speed of a plane at 700 ft. It starts at 8:00.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmGRTp1DDVE[/youtube]

Here Ace Baker shows you how easy it is to duplicate the CNN footage of the 2nd plane hitting the WTC, with Apple Motion. Watch him duplicate the footage step by step exactly.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNXmgF2yAEc[/youtube]

Chilling and disturbing isn't it? Too bad most people are afraid to consider the implications of this.

Here is what John Lear, one of the most experienced pilots in the world who holds every FAA certificate that exists, has to say about the planes on 9/11. It's very interesting.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N2RrQWsGes[/youtube]

Check out this FAQ about the No Plane Theory:

No-Plane Theory FAQ

Q. What about all the (hundreds, thousands, millions) of eyewitnesses?

A. If a real plane flew into the South Tower, there would indeed be thousands, if not 10's of thousands of eyewitnesses. But there are astonishingly few people who actually claimed to have seen and heard a plane. The extreme LACK of eyewitnesses speaks in favor of no planes.

There are a number of eyewitnesses, like David Handschuh, who were looking at the tower, and swear they didn't see a plane.

The few eyewitnesses that do exist are either (a) lying or (b) mistaken. The govern-media has trillions of dollars, and a hundred thousand secret agents. Manufacturing "eyewitnesses" is no problem. And let's not discount false memory. Many studies have conclusively shown that fake video alters eyewitness accounts.

Q. What happened to the passengers and airplanes?

A. The real planes took off as advertised, and were hijacked by special ops. The planes were landed at Stewart Air Force Base, and replaced on radar by false blips. The passengers and crew were executed, blood and body samples taken. These samples were then planted at the "crash" locations, "found", and then legitimate DNA testing was done.

Q. But I saw an airplane crashing into the tower on live TV!

A. No you didn't. On live TV, you were shown "Chopper 5" and "Chopper 7". Both of these video show a plane passing behind the edge of the tower, not hitting it. The video that show the plane penetrating the building came later, after there was plenty of time to edit them. They look fake, because they are fake.

Q. What about the airplane parts that were found on the street?

A. No parts were found BELOW the "impact" area, or in the gashes. The few parts that were found, were located BEYOND the tower, as if they made it all the way through and out the other side. I believe they shot an airplane part out of a cannon on the 80th floor of WTC2. That's what it looks like on the video. This would explain why the molten metal was seen pouring out of that location before the demolition. They had to melt down the cannon, lest it be blown clear during the demolition.

Q. What about the phone calls?

A. What phone calls? The only recording of any phone call is Betty Ong, early in AA11. That probably was a real phone call, after the real hijackers had taken over the plane, and before they landed it at Stewart AFB. As to the rest of the alleged phone calls, they don't exist. A "transcript" means nothing. What phone calls?
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Postby Winston » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:03 pm

Enishi wrote:Um....huh? O.o

I'm openminded to some conspiracy stuff, but seriously, if it wasn't planes that hit the towers there would have been thousands of eye witnesses!


Good point. See the FAQ above.
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Postby Winston » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:07 pm

Check out this video of the 2nd plane that hit the WTC. Just before impact, the left wing disappears! Could that be indication of a holographic plane? lol

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek-Q0T9wK2g[/youtube]

And here is live footage of the second explosion of the WTC that shows no plane approaching it?! Too bad no one has a better quality version of this footage.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXr_sGrUFO4[/youtube]

Did Flight 93 land in Cleveland?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOeYozeTAu8[/youtube]

Listen to this 9/11 phone call by Betty Ong, a flight attendant on Flight 11. I can't believe how unemotional she sounds, as though she were "ordering a pizza" as the comments say.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI6xbtVxL0A[/youtube]

Interesting video debunking the 9/11 hijacking myths.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYUnaefdO8M[/youtube]
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Postby globetrotter » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:06 am

Considering that hundred's of thousands saw this event in person, this theory is pointless.

Hologram technology is no where near this level.

In order to project one you need a stable, stationary screen.
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Postby Winston » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:54 pm

globetrotter wrote:Considering that hundred's of thousands saw this event in person, this theory is pointless.

Hologram technology is no where near this level.

In order to project one you need a stable, stationary screen.


Did you read the FAQ above?

Q. What about all the (hundreds, thousands, millions) of eyewitnesses?

A. If a real plane flew into the South Tower, there would indeed be thousands, if not 10's of thousands of eyewitnesses. But there are astonishingly few people who actually claimed to have seen and heard a plane. The extreme LACK of eyewitnesses speaks in favor of no planes.

There are a number of eyewitnesses, like David Handschuh, who were looking at the tower, and swear they didn't see a plane.

The few eyewitnesses that do exist are either (a) lying or (b) mistaken. The govern-media has trillions of dollars, and a hundred thousand secret agents. Manufacturing "eyewitnesses" is no problem. And let's not discount false memory. Many studies have conclusively shown that fake video alters eyewitness accounts.


How do you know the government black ops don't have holograph technology yet? What is your level of security clearance? lol. Did you know there are around 40 security levels ABOVE the President of the United States? Which level are you privy to? lol

John Lear, one of the most accomplished pilots in the word, has met people that are privy to holograph technology and have explained to him that it is possible to fake holographic planes. Listen to him here:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N2RrQWsGes[/youtube]

I'm not saying that's what happened, but you never know...

Besides, what are the odds that four airliners could crash and leave no significant debris? Zero? It's nonsense isn't it?
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Postby Winston » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:52 pm

Check this out. Here is the full version of Betty Ong's call from Flight 11 to some emergency number. It's very bizarre. She says that one person has been stabbed on the flight and that hijackers have gone into the cockpit and locked the door, yet she sounds bored and sleepy at the same time. Now I don't know about you, but if I was on a hijacked plane, and a guy was stabbed and hijackers were in the cockpit, I sure would not sound "bored and sleepy"! She sounds like she's ordering a pizza. WTF?!

Also, how come there are not excited passengers in the background during the call?

Furthermore, the emergency staff sounded retarded. They keep asking her to repeat her statements, like they got all the time in the world. Not even the 911 staff when you call them, act that nonchalant and robotic. They are usually engaging and quick to respond to emergencies. But this emergency staff that Betty Ong talked to sounded like a joke. They sounded like drones who are indecisive and don't care. WTF?! Very bizarre.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Tr0u35Tek[/youtube]

Also, here is video of the second plane that hit the WTC from another angle. Notice again how, just before the plane hits, one of the wings VANISHES! It's really bizarre. I'm not sure what to make of it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BztotD5hXw0[/youtube]

Also, check this out. A guy named David Handschuh, a professional photographer, said in this interview that he stood right under the WTC when the second plane hit and saw NO PLANE!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhsBqUtq4XI[/youtube]
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Re: No planes on 9/11? Interesting theories and clues

Postby Winston » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:28 pm

Last September, on the anniversary of 9/11, I talked about the "no plane theory" on the New American Dream Radio Show. Here is the link to listen to it.

http://theshow.newamericandream.info/shows/september-11-2014-guests-richard-flamer-winston-wu-jim-fetzer-phil-farruggio/
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Re: No planes on 9/11? Interesting theories and clues

Postby Moretorque » Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:45 pm

One thing is for sure Winston and that is you are very handsome as a king.
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Re: No planes on 9/11? Interesting theories and clues

Postby Winston » Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:25 pm

A great analysis of the no plane and faked victims scenario on 9/11 from my other forum:

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34653#p34653

"After a lot of examination of the evidence and matching them against various scenarios, I have also come to a 'mostly no plane' position, although I'm still not sure if a single plane was used to ferry people, possibly consolidated from a number of landed flights, whether the passengers were fictitious, etc. I don't believe any passenger planes hit the WTC towers, rather remote controlled military planes may have been used, and in the case of the first tower possibly just explosives along with some faked footage being released. Something resembling a jetliner (Boeing military jet with 'no windows'), probably flown by remote control and homing in on a GPS target, may have been used for the second impact as there would be eyewitnesses by then -- although the youtubes above suggest that may not have been the case either, just another outward explosion and faked videos. Further, it would be likely that the planes would have disintegrated on hitting the very solid buildings and actually mostly landed in the street. There is strong evidence of video faking of the planes in all the sources I've seen.

There seems to have been a flyover of the Pentagon by a jetliner in order to give an impression to witnesses on the ground, but it continued travelling away from the Pentagon, while either internal explosives or some sort of missile was used on the Pentagon wall -- planted explosives would be more reliable than firing a missile from somewhere, and could have been planted as part of the 'renovations' and reinforcement activity. An area of the Pentagon was hit which was conveniently full of auditors and CIA auditing records, all destroyed. There was no trace of wreckage of a 757 or pax or luggage etc. I'm still trying to figure out what really happened to Barbara Olson.

There seemed to be no jetliner downed at the site in Shanksville, PA, unless in fact there was a '4th' plane full of real passengers which was shot down in the air by the USAF, possibly not in line with the intended plan -- there may have been an intent to collide an actual plane with an actual target as the final part of the planned events -- but just not sure if the pax were invented identities or whether some sort of deception was involved on real pax -- e.g. some of the recorded 'phone calls' seem to be from real people -- unless the other parties we see interviewed as family and spouses are in on the act as 'company employees' and all parties are fictitious identities. Either is possible. The coroner who spoke about having to dig down to find anything and claimed he'd gotten DNA matches for everyone eventually was lying and paid off. Apparently the 'families' of the ppl supposedly in the planes have not been vociferous at all about enquiries etc unlike families of ppl in the towers, which makes them suspect. Also there were no families waiting for anyone at LA airport, the supposed destination of the flights, wondering what had happened to their loved ones.

The hijackers did not exist as such, i.e. they were all on faked passports, were not actually on any flights (as the flights did not exist), etc. The flights themselves had only come into existence as slots in the FAA system a couple of weeks earlier, a suspiciously short interval of time. One of the tailplane numbers has been noted later by a diligent steward as still being in service.

The no planer explanation fits all the data, and it was easier to pull the thing off with no planes and relatively little loss of life."

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34656#p34656

"Relatively little loss of life. Why? I'm glad you asked:

Scenario 1 - "compassionate "

- most or all pax on planes were fake identities, possibly adapted from spooks and their complicit spook families, a la Newtown; no hijackers and no planes as already noted
- many of the floors in the WTC had been rented within 1 year prior to 9/11, having been vacant for the entire previous 26 years of the buildings life, e.g. suddenly the BoA took out 5 whole floors. This was in a troubled, asbestos-ridden old building that needed over a billion dollars worth of asbestos removal work, floor by floor, to meet current standards. In actual fact, it seems certain businesses had been encouraged to rent and move their 'troublesome ' records into the WTC in order to have them conveniently destroyed, as per the Pentagon impact. And BoA has a lot to hide. Now it's possible there were virtually no staff in the buildings for these lettings, as they only needed to have the appearance of tenants, and the businesses were in on it to boot. So remove a few names from the 3,000 list as they may have furnished fake names of non-existent workers
- I believe quite a lot of ordinary uninvolved workers escaped after the first explosions via the usual means, and the planners expected that to happen, also reducing casualties.
- now this is the big one - I believe a lot of the 3,000 identities were simply fictitious and fabricated names. The scam here was that the US govt kindly paid $500,000 compensation to each family for each death, a tidy and generous sum. Let's say as many as 2,000 names were just generated as fictions. The govt would have then paid or allocated $1bn to these fictitious identities - money which would actually be used to pay off everyone involved in the plan handsomely, plus covering all operating costs in arrears. I believe this payout was planned as part of the exercise.
- a handful of auditors at the Pentagon were killed, but there were no pax as already discussed.

So the body count may have been well under 1,000 in actual fact.

Scenario 2 - maximal casualties

Numbers in accordance with the 'official' count as ninja published above - but then there's no payoff pot of money to loot and bribe money and operational cost money, although appropriating money is not hard for the Pentagon.

Remember a large amount of gold bullion was also looted from the basement with clear foreknowledge of the event.

A number of people probably died in the planted explosions in WTC6 and WTC7 in the basement level etc, as per Barry Jennings testimony, but these people were probably officially 'moved' to the 1 and 2 towers in explaining their deaths.

Finally, some first responders died, and the planners intended to blow tons of asbestos all over the city to get rid of their remediation problem, plus claim up to $7 bn insurance money from European reinsurers. (Finally adjusted to around $5bn), which would allow the buildings to be rebuilt out of cash - which of course hasn't happened, so some lucky soul has just kept the money from this convenient fire sale.

So any number of New Yorkers will suffer long term and eventually fatal problems from inhaling asbestos dust."
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Re: No planes on 9/11? Interesting theories and clues

Postby Winston » Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:37 pm

My response to the above:

Excellent analysis. Plus consider this. From the viewpoint of the perpetrators, it would be a lot easier to fake the event with actors and fake footage or holograms (if they have the technology) than it would be to do it with real victims and real planes.

As to the remote controlled jet theory, the problem with that is that even with a remote controlled jet, it would still be hard to hit the towers with complete accuracy. If they missed, the jets would have to circle around and try again, perhaps several times, which would look suspicious and risky because there's a chance they could miss and crash. If they crashed, the people around would see that it was an empty unmanned plane, and they could not control where it crashed too, so they could not set up the eyewitnesses. So you see, there are too many problems with that. Much easier to use a holographic plane or faked video CGI footage.

It's also much easier to use actors and fake victims than it is to deal with the consequences and cost of real victims, which are more unpredictable and uncontrollable. Real victims will take you to court and cause a lot more trouble than actors and fake victims would.

Some 9/11 researchers have also said that most of the 3,000 victims do NOT appear in the Social Security Death Index online, which is usually 100 percent accurate. That is a huge SMOKING GUN. Also, some of the alleged victims turned out to be people who died long before 9/11, which is another smoking gun proof of fraud. Further, many of the alleged victim's families only have one or two photos of their deceased loved ones who died on 9/11, which is odd and unusual.

Here is an interview with Markus Allen on HigherSideChat about how 9/11 could have been scripted and faked.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKn0rOZG17w[/youtube]
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
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Winston
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Re: No planes on 9/11? Interesting theories and clues

Postby Winston » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:02 pm

Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
 
Posts: 23574
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:16 pm


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