Join John Adams, world renowned Intl Matchmaker, Monday nights 8:30 EST for Live Webcasts!
And check out Five Reasons why you should attend a FREE AFA Seminar! See locations and dates here.





View Active Topics       View Your Posts       Latest 100 Topics       FAQ Topics       Mobile Friendly Theme


23 minutes in hell testimony

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

Moderators: jamesbond, fschmidt

gsjackson
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2230
Joined: June 12th, 2010, 3:08 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Contact:

Re: 23 minutes in hell testimony

Post by gsjackson » October 18th, 2018, 4:00 am

@Aron
"With that out of the way..." Probably best to try to weed out these little self-congratulatory declarations of triumph on the polemical battlefield, unless you want to piss people off (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Pascal's Wager actually focuses on the carrot aspect of Christianity, and I just pulled the stick flip side into service of this discussion. Not being an American, you might be unfamiliar with our one great indigenous philosophical tradition of pragmatism. From a pluralistic universe you choose the beliefs that are most useful to you, or something like that. Christianity is the religion that most Americans encounter on a deep personal level (or it used to be), and that is the arena in which our choices must be made, not some hypothetical multiverse. Read Will to Believe by William James.

MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2675
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: 23 minutes in hell testimony

Post by MrMan » October 18th, 2018, 5:39 am

Aron wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 3:31 am
What makes you think that? What evidence convinced you?
I believed in God before I saw any specific answers to prayer that I recall. In fact, believing that you have received what you asked for is a condition for one of the promises about receiving what you ask for in the Bible. Most of life as a Christian is kind of 'mundane', and that's okay. A lot of answers to prayer are mundane things. But they aren't all like that. If you hear Christians say, "God answers prayer", it's not only stuff like when they were in 6th grade they prayed to do well on a history test and got an A. Thank God for answering prayers like that. But many prayers are a lot more specific.

I will share a few things. I may be a bit stingy with exact details partly becuase I like to keep my identity secret on some forums, and on other forums, it is not secret. I'm not a celebrity or anything, but traveling in some countries it is good to be secret.

Anyway, I've had some pretty specific answers to prayer. Once my wife was going through a really moody phase when she was pregnant, and was very hard to get along with. She told me about something the Lord had told her about someone, and the girl later told her that same thing. That's something else I'll talk about later-- God telling people things. Anyway, my wife wasn't being very nice to me. She went to a friend's house, an older lady from church who was a good influence. I remembered my wife commenting on the Lord telling her something about that woman, and I thought if she is hearing God like that (still), then I'll ask God to speak to her about some things about our marriage, some blind spots she seemed to have about her own attitude. I did. I prayed maybe 6 or 7 things. So a few nights later, she comes back from this church program she was going to, and sits on the coach. She asks me to sit next to her. She starts apologizing for how she'd talked to me. She said the Lord had spoken to her about....then she goes through this rather detailed and specific list of things I'd prayed about. Except I'd just prayed a little, and it's like for every paragraph I prayed, she got a lot of detail I hadn't prayed about. It was so specific it was really amazing. I know I'm being vague. Part of that is because I've posted that on the Internet elsewhere, and part of it was because that was years ago. Pregnancy can make women moody, but after this, her attitude toward me changed, and the experience was good for our marriage.

My family was moving from one place to another after I finished a grad school program and didn't have a regular job. We were so low on cash, it was amazing we could move. Fortunately, I had more frequent flier miles saved up, and we could fly to our new destination. During a prayer meeting, my wife whispered to me that so-and-so had just given her a certain amount of money, several hundred dollars. I prayed and told God I'd like it if someone gave me that same amount of money. Not long after that, maybe an hour or so later, someone did. A woman we knew from church said she and her husband had discussed it and wanted to give us some money. I knew they weren't that well off financially, and I was going to give it back, but when I saw it was the exact amount I prayed for, I did not dare give it back. I told them I'd pray for God to provide for them.

Throughout the years, I have usually gone to churches that believe in spiritual gifts like prophecy and healing. When I was young, at one church, we'd pray for each other a lot after services. I'd start praying about people's personal experiences, private stuff, whatever. I did not always realize what the words I was praying meant to them, though. I was praying words or ideas I was getting to pray. I consider this to be in the category of 'word of knowledge' though some may consider it to be prophesying. A couple of young men I knew used to go out on the streets of this college town we lived near to share their faith. They'd been drug users before repenting of all that stuff. I was out with them. It was about 1:50 in the morning. I sensed that we should not go home yet. They hadn't prayed with anyone or really ministered much to anyone that night. The one guy wanted to go home, so I prayed that if the Lord wanted us to stay, that he'd send someone around the corner with a certain outfit, a certain color hat, certain color shirt, and certain color shoes. The guy next to me said that we'd be there all night. I continued praying, 'In the next two minutes' and set my stop watch. In about a minute and 50 seconds, a guy walked around the corner wearing that same outfit. I'd never seen him before as far as I know. We asked him what color shoes he was wearing, and he confirmed it was the color I said. It was hard to tell under the yellow lights. We told him what happened and talked with him. He'd thought about becoming a Christian.

I don't really prophesy, not the long messages. I have gotten what I consider words of knowledge from time to time. It happened a lot for a certain period of time when I was younger, probably because I was praying with people a lot. A few weeks, ago, I was at a church conference. The conference was about prophecy and we were asked to break up into small groups and prophesy over each other. That's not something I'd say to do or recommend. I did not prophesy, but I got a couple of words for people. One was about this young guy in the group of three we were in playing the guitar. I don't really think in pictures, but I could sort of see him playing the guitar. It's not as impressive as some of the other prophecies that people get, but Christians have different gifts, like the Bible teaches.

I've also witnessed a few healings. One was when I was in middle school where a girl at school was healed of severly crossed eyes and other vision problems. It was really obvious that she had been healed. I've heard people say in meetings their hearing was healed and things like that. I interviewed a old woman after she'd been prayed for once at a meeting who said she had not been able to walk without an oxygen tank before being prayed for. I have also had a few people tell me they were healed after I'd prayed for them, mostly leg and foot problems. Many years ago, I'd heard a preacher talk about hearing a knee pop when he prayed for it, and I prayed for that to happen. I was praying for this homeless guy who was staying with a relative whose leg was messed up. He'd gone to the emergency room and couldn't afford the specialist they said he needed. So I prayed for it, and it popped. He said it was better. The relative who'd introduced us said his leg was doing better afterward, but he went back to the town he came from and so I never saw him after I prayed for him.

My wife prophesies sometimes, and at times she has prophesied quite a bit. She's gotten lengthy prophecies for people who've talked to her about it later. She got all kinds of details about the problems one woman had in her marriage. Sometimes, she prophesies stuff and doesn't really know the significance of it like the individual receiving it does. That's how it works sometimes. I've gotten words of knowledge about people and she'd prophesy the same thing before I told the individual. I've had that happen before at another meeting, where my attention would be drawn to someone, I'd pray for the individual, get a word of knowledge for him, then someone prophesies for the person, including what I'd gotten for the individual. Some people who prophesy or interpret tongues I've talked to tell me there are times they get a prophecy or interpretation of tongues and someone else gives the same message before they do. I've experienced this myself and seen it with others, where I go one place and someone prophesies something about me or someone else, and I go somewhere else and someone else prophesies the same thing. This sort of thing happens when the person prophesying doesn't know who he's prophesying over, as has happened to me.

Some individuals get extremely detailed prophecies or words of knowledge that deal with personal details about the individuals life or situation that they could no naturally know. One man I saw could go on for hours and hours with complete strangers. That was back when I was young and still lived with my parents when I was in college. They'd been talking about building a house. He prophesied about that, describing some details of the property they would later have, talked a bit about my father's occupation. I worked with the assistant pastor's wife, and I was sitting behind her. She'd whisper some details to me on occasion. When he prophesied about the cruise one person was going on or the camp someone else would be working at, she said "He's working at a summer camp" or "He's going on a cruise" or stuff like that. I know the guy had never met my parents and I hadn't told those details to anyone there.

I've posted another thread about a guy prophesying specific details on this forum. I haven't met the guy in the video, but I have seen that sort of thing elsewhere. Most people I've seen prophesy don't go on with a lot of details like he does, except for the guy who prophesied over my parents, who seemed to get even more detailed and go on and on and on for hours like that.

I know I am just some guy posting on an Internet forum and you don't know anything about me. But you should consider that some of us Christians do experience God working in our lives and in our churches in ways where it really would not make any sense at all for us to suddenly become atheists. It would certainly go against good sense and reason for me to do that with what I've experienced.

If you had experienced the things I've described, what would you believe?

I've got some training in applying the scientific method. I have an earned doctorate with some social science training, including a bit of psychology at the PhD level. So I have some training examining evidence. From my perspective, a lot of what I have witnessed could not be explained with a materialistic Scooby Doo show view of the world.

Not all Christians have the same set of experiences I have with spiritual gifts. Not all churches are really into these things. But I think you'd find if you ask them that there are many Christians who have experienced God answering quite specific prayers if they've prayed with faith, if you asked around.

It's not just a case of people believing what they want to believe, based on whatever culture they are in and whatever books they were exposed to as a child, with no evidence to back up any beliefs. There is historical evidence, the writings of witnesses of Jesus Christ's life who witnessed that He rose from the dead after He died on a cross. And there is also contemporary evidence of the working of God in the lives of people today.

Aron
Freshman Poster
Posts: 138
Joined: July 4th, 2018, 9:54 am

Re: 23 minutes in hell testimony

Post by Aron » October 18th, 2018, 8:49 am

@gsjackson

That part about moving on to the next topic wasn't really supposed to sound that annoying, but alright.
gsjackson wrote: Not being an American, you might be unfamiliar with our one great indigenous philosophical tradition of pragmatism. From a pluralistic universe you choose the beliefs that are most useful to you, or something like that. Christianity is the religion that most Americans encounter on a deep personal level (or it used to be), and that is the arena in which our choices must be made, not some hypothetical multiverse. Read Will to Believe by William James.
I skimmed a little bit of the wikipedia description of Will to Believe, but from that it seems he doesn't agree with Pascal's Wager. He doesn't think people have control over their beliefs, and thinks if they could force themselves to believe something at will, they still shouldn't.

I agree with some of the general gist of his idea, that people have valid reasons to consider an idea even if they can't fully show how that idea is true or cannot be fully sure it is. But I don't think that natural desire for meaning or purpose really leads towards Christianity. It just is funneled towards Christianity or other religions because people think there's nothing else and are only presented one thing, then threatened to conform. That's what leads them to just ignore all the problems in the religion. For example many Christians ignore the immorality of this idea of an eternal hell because they are afraid of death and don't want to question their belief system which tells them they'll burn if they question it. But ultimately, it really is an immoral idea, the moment you accept that torture for even a brief time is quite questionable then the idea of eternal torture just becomes indefensible. The Christian idea of an Omnipotent God also makes illogical everything that happens, requiring a double standard for God where he for some reason does not do anything to help people, while humans do quite a lot with their limited abilities.

I personally do not believe the materialist canard that consciousness doesn't exist. Their main evidence for this is that sometimes you can detect a neural impulse associated with a thought before a person consciously has it, but nobody ever said people are in total control of the origin of their every thought. The key fallacy these people make is to assume that there is no free will control over thoughts after they come to mind. Someone might get a random idea, or they might passively feel pain, but their choice of how to act on things that come into their awareness is up to them. These materialist types are just ignoring their own direct experiences of freewill to fit the materialist paradigm.

I would also agree that there is probably some form of life after death, but I don't think the Christian idea of this is true at all. It just is contradicted by quite a bit of the NDE evidence, what they've found is that many people across different belief systems, including atheists, often see similar results in their NDE, very often contradicting their Religious expectations, and this is all logical enough if they are real experiences that aren't simply imagined by a dying brain.

Here's a good database on this:
https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence.html
And also, disproof of the skeptic model of the dying brain.
https://www.near-death.com/science/arti ... heory.html

However I disagree with this one line:
Greg Stone wrote:
Susan Blackmore wrote:The problem with evolution is, and has always been, that it leaves little room either for a grand purpose to life or for an individual soul.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Though the body is an evolving bio-organism, the spirit is not; when it comes to questions of spirit or soul, evolution is irrelevant. She uses a biological argument to dismiss a non-biological premise, revealing her intention to dismiss evidence a priori and substitute biases that arise from the field of evolutionary psychology - the "man-is-an-animal" school of thought.
This is actually a good point for her to bring up, if evolution is entirely directed by unconscious random processes it would seem suggestive towards the conclusion that consciousness doesn't exist, although it wouldn't prove that on its own. But there is good evidence that Lamarck was right about evolution being a consciously directed process. The main supposed disproof of lamarck's hypothesis was that if you mutilate an animal its offspring will not be born also having a severed tail. But that doesn't properly test the hypothesis, the hypothesis is that organisms will actively acquire traits in response to environmental change and those changes can become passed on regardless of if the environmental stimulus remains for future generations. You can read about that here, CTRL-F to 'Waddington' if you don't want to read the whole thing.
https://thebestschools.org/dialogues/ev ... statement/

As the article brings up there are many specific mechanisms like Transposition and Horizontal Gene Transfer through which all this active change actually occurs, the data shows that mutation rates do increase massively in response to environmental stimuli, and they do not just occur regardless of how beneficial they are to the organism. The few random ones tend to be screened out and removed, as statistically they would do far more harm than good, regardless of what the Neo-Darwinists assume. Essentially, evolution overall is an active process which disproves one of the main materialist arguments that consciousness doesn't exist.

Hopefully that's not too much of an information overload, but with any luck that'll all be helpful information.

MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2675
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: 23 minutes in hell testimony

Post by MrMan » October 18th, 2018, 8:01 pm

Aron wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 8:49 am
For example many Christians ignore the immorality of this idea of an eternal hell because they are afraid of death and don't want to question their belief system which tells them they'll burn if they question it. But ultimately, it really is an immoral idea, the moment you accept that torture for even a brief time is quite questionable then the idea of eternal torture just becomes indefensible.
Why would God causing or allowing the torturing the wicked who defy and oppose the very God that made them be immoral? By what standard do you appeal to anything as immoral or moral? That appeal in itself assumes a higher authority.
The Christian idea of an Omnipotent God also makes illogical everything that happens, requiring a double standard for God where he for some reason does not do anything to help people, while humans do quite a lot with their limited abilities.
There are some Christian philosophers who seem to think of God as a set of 'omni's. In some ways this wooden type of thinking, IMO, can depart from the Biblical presentation of God. It is not irreconcilable that an omnipotent and good God would allow evil, as long as He has a good reason to allow it. God does an awful lot to help people. Your being able to breathe is pretty nice for you. Setting up all the millions of variables necessarily for the proper range of temperature, the proper amount of sunlight, etc. to exist to allow us and all other life on earth to exist is an awful lot.

And it makes absolutely perfect logical sense to allow a 'double standard' for God in some areas. It is immoral for you or me to go out and murder someone. But it is not immoral for the Creator of life to allow it to die or to actively slay.
I would also agree that there is probably some form of life after death, but I don't think the Christian idea of this is true at all. It just is contradicted by quite a bit of the NDE evidence, what they've found is that many people across different belief systems, including atheists, often see similar results in their NDE, very often contradicting their Religious expectations, and this is all logical enough if they are real experiences that aren't simply imagined by a dying brain.
I know at least one book has been published on multiple people's experiences of Hell. It was years ago since I heard the interview, but some people who have NDEs report seeing Hell at first, but later if you ask them, they report a much more benign experience. Honesty could be an issue. If you'd just come out of Hell, you might talk about it for emotional reasons, but after the initial shock wore off, you might start caring that people realized you were sinful and therefore went to Hell.

MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2675
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: 23 minutes in hell testimony

Post by MrMan » October 18th, 2018, 8:01 pm

Aron wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 8:49 am
For example many Christians ignore the immorality of this idea of an eternal hell because they are afraid of death and don't want to question their belief system which tells them they'll burn if they question it. But ultimately, it really is an immoral idea, the moment you accept that torture for even a brief time is quite questionable then the idea of eternal torture just becomes indefensible.
Why would God causing or allowing the torturing the wicked who defy and oppose the very God that made them be immoral? By what standard do you appeal to anything as immoral or moral? That appeal in itself assumes a higher authority.
The Christian idea of an Omnipotent God also makes illogical everything that happens, requiring a double standard for God where he for some reason does not do anything to help people, while humans do quite a lot with their limited abilities.
There are some Christian philosophers who seem to think of God as a set of 'omni's. In some ways this wooden type of thinking, IMO, can depart from the Biblical presentation of God. It is not irreconcilable that an omnipotent and good God would allow evil, as long as He has a good reason to allow it. God does an awful lot to help people. Your being able to breathe is pretty nice for you. Setting up all the millions of variables necessarily for the proper range of temperature, the proper amount of sunlight, etc. to exist to allow us and all other life on earth to exist is an awful lot.

And it makes absolutely perfect logical sense to allow a 'double standard' for God in some areas. It is immoral for you or me to go out and murder someone. But it is not immoral for the Creator of life to allow it to die or to actively slay.
I would also agree that there is probably some form of life after death, but I don't think the Christian idea of this is true at all. It just is contradicted by quite a bit of the NDE evidence, what they've found is that many people across different belief systems, including atheists, often see similar results in their NDE, very often contradicting their Religious expectations, and this is all logical enough if they are real experiences that aren't simply imagined by a dying brain.
I know at least one book has been published on multiple people's experiences of Hell. It was years ago since I heard the interview, but some people who have NDEs report seeing Hell at first, but later if you ask them, they report a much more benign experience. Honesty could be an issue. If you'd just come out of Hell, you might talk about it for emotional reasons, but after the initial shock wore off, you might start caring that people realized you were sinful and therefore went to Hell.

Aron
Freshman Poster
Posts: 138
Joined: July 4th, 2018, 9:54 am

Re: 23 minutes in hell testimony

Post by Aron » October 18th, 2018, 8:40 pm

@MrMan
MrMan wrote: Why would God causing or allowing the torturing the wicked who defy and oppose the very God that made them be immoral? By what standard do you appeal to anything as immoral or moral? That appeal in itself assumes a higher authority.
If morality is based on authority that means it's based on a Subjective judgement. Aka, if God controls what is right and wrong, then there is nno objective right and wrong he can observe that is independent of his decisiosn. If god cannot control what is right and wrong, then right and wrong are objective. Either way, it's conceptually impossible for God to make something objectively right or wrong since that necessarily means it wasn't already so before he made it objective, and that he didn't do this for an objectively right reason.
MrMan wrote:There are some Christian philosophers who seem to think of God as a set of 'omni's. In some ways this wooden type of thinking, IMO, can depart from the Biblical presentation of God. It is not irreconcilable that an omnipotent and good God would allow evil, as long as He has a good reason to allow it. God does an awful lot to help people. Your being able to breathe is pretty nice for you. Setting up all the millions of variables necessarily for the proper range of temperature, the proper amount of sunlight, etc. to exist to allow us and all other life on earth to exist is an awful lot.

And it makes absolutely perfect logical sense to allow a 'double standard' for God in some areas. It is immoral for you or me to go out and murder someone. But it is not immoral for the Creator of life to allow it to die or to actively slay.
Have any actual evidence that God is responsible for breathing being possible? That seems to be due to the bacteria that initially mass-oxygenated the planet, not God. The rest of your argument is mostly the same. You overall do not have a specific reason of just why God shouldn't intervene more with omnipotent power if others are somewhat obligated to improve the world even with far less power. For example if someone discovered a cure for cancer, I would say they are pretty obligated to share that with the world and try to get rid of the disease, it would do a lot of good for the world. Meanwhile, God would have the power to eradicate cancer with the snap of his fingers but this does not happen.
MrMan wrote:I know at least one book has been published on multiple people's experiences of Hell. It was years ago since I heard the interview, but some people who have NDEs report seeing Hell at first, but later if you ask them, they report a much more benign experience. Honesty could be an issue. If you'd just come out of Hell, you might talk about it for emotional reasons, but after the initial shock wore off, you might start caring that people realized you were sinful and therefore went to Hell.
You're not convincing me that Hell exists and Christianity is true. If you would look at the evidence i posted you would realize that statistically most of the NDEs have common traits and do not match up with Christian religious doctrine. That doesn't make sense for your worldview that Christianity is true and people should only be seeing the Christian heaven or hell.

MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2675
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: 23 minutes in hell testimony

Post by MrMan » October 18th, 2018, 10:07 pm

Aron wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 8:40 pm
@MrMan
MrMan wrote: Why would God causing or allowing the torturing the wicked who defy and oppose the very God that made them be immoral? By what standard do you appeal to anything as immoral or moral? That appeal in itself assumes a higher authority.
If morality is based on authority that means it's based on a Subjective judgement. Aka, if God controls what is right and wrong, then there is nno objective right and wrong he can observe that is independent of his decisiosn. If god cannot control what is right and wrong, then right and wrong are objective. Either way, it's conceptually impossible for God to make something objectively right or wrong since that necessarily means it wasn't already so before he made it objective, and that he didn't do this for an objectively right reason.
What is moral is consistent with God's character.
MrMan wrote:There are some Christian philosophers who seem to think of God as a set of 'omni's. In some ways this wooden type of thinking, IMO, can depart from the Biblical presentation of God. It is not irreconcilable that an omnipotent and good God would allow evil, as long as He has a good reason to allow it. God does an awful lot to help people. Your being able to breathe is pretty nice for you. Setting up all the millions of variables necessarily for the proper range of temperature, the proper amount of sunlight, etc. to exist to allow us and all other life on earth to exist is an awful lot.

And it makes absolutely perfect logical sense to allow a 'double standard' for God in some areas. It is immoral for you or me to go out and murder someone. But it is not immoral for the Creator of life to allow it to die or to actively slay.
Have any actual evidence that God is responsible for breathing being possible? That seems to be due to the bacteria that initially mass-oxygenated the planet, not God.
God is the Creator, and He also created a very complicated system. The chances of our planet being able to exist and have life is so incredibly infinitisimally slow that even respected scientists have restorted to postulating the possibility of a multiverse--like in the comib books-- to deal with the incredible improbability. I don't see how that helps. If coin flips are supposed to be statistically independent, why wouldn't the existence of one universe be statistically independent of another.
The rest of your argument is mostly the same. You overall do not have a specific reason of just why God shouldn't intervene more with omnipotent power if others are somewhat obligated to improve the world even with far less power. For example if someone discovered a cure for cancer, I would say they are pretty obligated to share that with the world and try to get rid of the disease, it would do a lot of good for the world. Meanwhile, God would have the power to eradicate cancer with the snap of his fingers but this does not happen.
Based on what do you say a human who discovers the cure for cancer is morally obligated to share it? Would you also say that working for a drug company, which withholds cures from those who cannot pay for them, is immoral?

God can allow evil and illness in the world if He has a good reason for doing so. You could follow the same line of reasoning you are using to argue that God would be obligated to turn everyone into kind and nice automitons who commit not crimes, complement each other, and make each other lemonade all the time, kind of like in this episode of Itchy and Scratchy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4YyRbjrri4

MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2675
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: 23 minutes in hell testimony

Post by MrMan » October 18th, 2018, 10:30 pm

Aron,

People having experiences of looking down at their bodies or even going through a tunnel toward a light does not say much one way or another about whether individuals will end up in traditional notions of heaven and Hell. There is also the issue that some of the traditional ideas about heaven and Hell may not really have that much support in the writings of the prophets and apostles in the Bible. The Bible does not directly address individuals going to heaven when they die. Paul says he would be willing to be absent with the body and present with the Lord.

I am curious about what you mean by 'statistically.' My understanding is that NDE research is case study research. Who has done statistical research? I've had a look at your NDE links. Did they do some kind of metanalysis and run statistics on it? If so, what did they test?

There are people who report going to Hell in NDEs, also. https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2016/05/ ... periences/
http://ndestories.org/category/hell-hellish-realms/

Aron
Freshman Poster
Posts: 138
Joined: July 4th, 2018, 9:54 am

Re: 23 minutes in hell testimony

Post by Aron » October 18th, 2018, 10:40 pm

@MrMan
MrMan wrote:What is moral is consistent with God's character.
Why is God's character itself moral, then?
MrMan wrote:God is the Creator, and He also created a very complicated system. The chances of our planet being able to exist and have life is so incredibly infinitisimally slow that even respected scientists have restorted to postulating the possibility of a multiverse--like in the comib books-- to deal with the incredible improbability. I don't see how that helps. If coin flips are supposed to be statistically independent, why wouldn't the existence of one universe be statistically independent of another.
Life existing does not mean it was by design. You are also conflating the conclusion that life statistically couldn't have come about as a result of unconscious molecules randomly bumping into each other with the conclusion that suddenly some Omnipotent God did it.
MrMan wrote:Based on what do you say a human who discovers the cure for cancer is morally obligated to share it? Would you also say that working for a drug company, which withholds cures from those who cannot pay for them, is immoral?
I don't think it's wrong for scientists to work for drug companies, they need to make money somehow. But I do think our current Capitalist system causes quite a lot of structural violence as you just pointed out. Yes I think it is quite wrong that the system is oriented around corporate profit and not overall societal health. Which is why the medical industry always researches mainly treatments not cures, effective cures would remove the market share gained from continual treatment.

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Religion and Spirituality”