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Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Winston
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Re:

Post by Winston » September 4th, 2018, 3:39 am

momopi wrote:
April 21st, 2011, 9:49 am
Good vs. Evil is based on religious moral values created by man, and varies from religion to religion. Think outside of christian-centric view on god and morality. i.e. If you belonged to a head-hunting tribe in the past, you might think that hunting heads is a good thing.

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Question for you @momopi.

Suppose I broke into your house and stole all your valuables. Would you consider that to be morally wrong? Objectively morally wrong? Why or why not?

What if I not only stole your stuff, but I raped your wife too, and killed your kids? Would you exclaim that that was morally wrong, or that there's no such thing as objective morality? Would such an act be relative or subjective only, or would it be objectively wrong?

What do you think? And why?

You should read the famous book "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis, Christian author and philosopher, who also wrote the Narnia Chronicles. It is hailed and recommended by Christians as being a great philosophical masterpiece that is easy to understand for the average layman. It makes many good points like the above, and also explains why we all have an innate sense of morality and conscience that we are born with. Hence morality is natural and objective, and given to us by our creator. I don't agree with everything he says, but he has some good valid points. Atheists should read it and consider it. There are many free copies of it online.
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Re:

Post by Winston » September 4th, 2018, 5:38 am

keius wrote:
April 21st, 2011, 11:05 am
Why can't we accept that the concept of God is a human fabrication?

As such, God is just a reflection of us. We were not made in his image. He was made in ours. That makes God, an imperfect human with all the same shortcomings...which is why he seems like such a dick in the Bible. It's just so friggin obvious. There's simply nothing to debunk. BS is BS.
Even if God was made in our image or imagination, the problem with that is obvious:

1. Atheism provides NO ANSWERS to any big questions about the mysteries of the universe or the creation of it, or our place in it. All it offers is DENIAL. Hence it has no value and is the WEAKEST of all the paradigms.

2. Atheists tend to be DISHONEST. If you ask an atheist why he believes there's no God, he will say "Because there's no proof." But then when you show him proof from the intelligent design argument, complex organized structure of life and cells and DNA, the anthropic principle and fine tuning of the universe argument, the watchmaker argument, etc. he will deny them using whatever excuse he can find. Then when you dig deeper and push them to find out their true motivations, you find that the Atheist will ADMIT that he: a) hates and despises God and finds the concept of one to be repugnant, 2) does not want to be accountable to any higher power or have any deity watching him all the time, 3) blames God for something bad that happened in his life and holds a grudge against him for it, etc.

So when you put their back against the wall and confront them with the question "Do you want there to be a God?" they will admit that they do not and find the concept repugnant. They will admit their BIASES and HATRED for God and religion as their real motivation. Thus they have strong EMOTIONAL reasons and biases for being an Atheist, that are not grounded in some form of neutral objective Spockian logic after all. In short, they are heavily biased and emotional, not neutral or objective at all, and will admit it if you dig deeper into their motives. However, they will not admit that at first, and instead pretend that it's all about the evidence and proof and logic, which is a LIE and DECEPTION, because those aren't the real reasons. Hence in that sense, they are DECEPTIVE about their motives and try to hide them.

3. The Atheist paradigm does NOT ACCOUNT for many things in reality and a wide variety of evidence and phenomena. Their model of reality - of a Godless universe with no spiritual or metaphysical dimension - does not take into account a wide plethora of data and phenomena that do not fit into it. Some examples:

- It cannot explain how consciousness came about or evolved, nor how the sudden onset of human intelligence is possible, without some type of creator or intervention in our evolution. That is a big mystery that has always baffled science and neurologists. They want to find an atheistic naturalistic explanation that doesn't involve God or a Creator of course, but they can never find one.

- It cannot explain the complex, organized, elaborate and highly structured DESIGN inherent in all biological life - organisms, cells, bacteria, DNA, etc. The level of sophistication of which is far beyond anything that humans can create or design. In fact, Bill Gates said that the code in human DNA is far beyond anything that Microsoft can produce. And Francis Cricke, one of the discoverers of DNA, said that there's no way DNA could have evolved naturally on Earth, so it must have come from elsewhere, beyond our world. Also, our DNA and cells, contain ERROR CORRECTING CODES, which only exist in computer programs written by programmers, as we all know. Thus they can only be explained by intelligent design. Not by evolution or Darwinian mechanisms. Atheism also cannot explain where the first living cell capable of reproducing came from, aka abiogenesis.

- It cannot explain a whole host of paranormal phenomena, such as ghosts, hauntings, poltergeists, ESP, telepathy, psychics, etc, all of which are well documented and proven by science in controlled double blind studies and experiments, as well as firsthand accounts from countless people and testimonies from credible sources.

- It cannot explain how psychics, mediums and astrologers can score hits that are way above chance, or get specific hits that cannot be obtained from cold reading or guessing. Hits that are highly specific and personal, not general or that can apply to anyone (as pseudoskeptics James Randi and Michael Shermer FALSELY and WRONGLY claimed). Nor can they explain other phenomena that chance and probability statistics cannot account for.

- It cannot explain the many compelling cases of reincarnation and past lives - which both Christians and Atheists cannot explain away and are a thorn in their side. Such as the documented cases studied and published by Dr. Ian Stevenson and others, of past lives which cannot be explained by any other hypothesis other than reincarnation. There are many documented cases, including recent ones that went viral, such as the case of James Linberg and Jenny Cockell, which were featured on the mainstream news as well and astounded the public. No skeptic, Atheist or dogmatic Christian, has ever been able to explain such cases away. So they have been a thorn in their side since they do not fit into their narrow paradigm.

- It cannot explain why those who have a Near Death Experience (NDE) are able to have full blown experiences during an EEG flatline of their brain, such as in the case of Pam Reynolds, which should be neurologically impossible. Or how NDErs are able to view things while out of body that they could not possibly see, and later verify to be accurate. In fact, many elements of the NDE cannot be explained by the Atheistic model of a brain being deprived by oxygen.

- It cannot explain the countless cases of miracles and answered prayers, which there are so many authentic stories of and cannot be explained by coincidence or luck. Sure atheists can deny them, but that doesn't make them untrue. The stories are very uplifting, inspiring and yes true and well documented. Just because they don't fit into your model of reality, or you cannot explain them, doesn't mean they are untrue. Even I have examples of miracles and answered prayers in my life that are meaningful and significant and cannot be attributed to chance or coincidence.

4. The Atheist paradigm is self-defeating and contradictory. Atheists claim for example that the God of the Old Testament committed a lot of atrocities and killed a lot of people, which is immoral and evil. But in order to claim some sort of objective morality they need to have a God or all powerful authority to create such standards. Otherwise there is no true evil or immorality and everything is relative and a matter of one opinion vs another. There would be no good or bad. Hitler and Mother Theresa would be on the same moral footing. So would a saint and a mass murderer. Etc. The Christian Evangelist author Dr. Frank Turek makes this point and others in his book "Stealing From God: Why Atheists Need God to Make Their Case".

Also its presumptuous for Atheists to admit that they dont know how the universe and life began, but somehow they just KNOW that it cant be God, they just know that God is never an option because they've already decided that God is unnecessary and doesn't exist. So they've already ruled him out a priori. This reflects their bias and prejudice of course. Not objectivity. They've already made up their mind and are not open to information that contradicts it, no matter how valid. That's not the hallmark of an honest truth seeker.

So you see, the Atheist paradigm and model of reality has too many problems, flaws and shortcomings for us to adopt. The Atheistic paradigm provides NO answers to any big questions, is DISHONEST about its motives, and does NOT take into account a whole plethora of evidence and data that do NOT fit into its model of reality. In addition, it provides no hope, no meaning of life, no purpose to life, no positive message, no consolation or emotional solace, no inspiration, no answers to life's mysteries, no guidance, does not uplift or help people in any way, does not save lives or prevent suicide, etc. Nothing.

Hence it has NO VALUE and is the WEAKEST of all paradigms you can choose from. Even the Christian paradigm is better, despite its narrow mindedness. At least the Christian faith and gospel has helped people, given people hope and meaning, changed people for the better, uplifted people, and prevented a fair number of suicides (testimonials of which are abundant), an even reformed convicts in prison and ex-mafia members (e.g. Michael Franzese, ex mob boss turned Christian). Atheism has done NONE of that, and is hence the weakest, the most dismal and most valueless paradigm that offers nothing and has no value. All it offers is hatred and denial.
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Re: Re:

Post by momopi » September 4th, 2018, 9:23 am

Winston wrote:
September 4th, 2018, 3:39 am
Question for you @momopi.

Suppose I broke into your house and stole all your valuables. Would you consider that to be morally wrong? Objectively morally wrong? Why or why not?

What if I not only stole your stuff, but I raped your wife too, and killed your kids? Would you exclaim that that was morally wrong, or that there's no such thing as objective morality? Would such an act be relative or subjective only, or would it be objectively wrong?

What do you think? And why?

You should read the famous book "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis, Christian author and philosopher, who also wrote the Narnia Chronicles. It is hailed and recommended by Christians as being a great philosophical masterpiece that is easy to understand for the average layman. It makes many good points like the above, and also explains why we all have an innate sense of morality and conscience that we are born with. Hence morality is natural and objective, and given to us by our creator. I don't agree with everything he says, but he has some good valid points. Atheists should read it and consider it. There are many free copies of it online.
I will consider writing a reply after you reach Europe.

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Re: Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Post by TheLight954 » September 5th, 2018, 5:00 am

The explanation by NDE people is that life is a test of our free will.

You see, you would be infinitely benevolent if you had everything. Just think about it. There would be no temptations whatsoever. As such, it's so easy to possess infinite and unconditional love. What you do has zero reflection on the love of your soul.

However, with physical limits and problems, the soul is tested, for obvious reasons, and is allowed to evolve.

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Re: Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Post by Neo » April 8th, 2019, 6:39 am

TheLight954 wrote:
September 5th, 2018, 5:00 am
The explanation by NDE people is that life is a test of our free will.

You see, you would be infinitely benevolent if you had everything. Just think about it. There would be no temptations whatsoever. As such, it's so easy to possess infinite and unconditional love. What you do has zero reflection on the love of your soul.

However, with physical limits and problems, the soul is tested, for obvious reasons, and is allowed to evolve.
This life is certainly a test of our free will: to see if we prefer to do good or evil. It's a very simple test, but many people prefer evil.

God delights in being merciful. He loves His creation and people. People who are going to perish aren't going to the place of torment by accident.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Post by Winston » June 12th, 2019, 6:55 pm

Three new books that deal with the question of how a good loving God could allow suffering and tragedy to happen to good innocent people, and help bring hope and comfort to the bereaved.

https://www.amazon.com/God-Cant-Believe ... 07MP93F1W/

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God Can't: How to Believe in God and Love after Tragedy, Abuse, and Other Evils

Hurting people ask heart-felt questions about God and suffering. Some "answers" they receive appeal to mystery: “God’s ways are not our ways”. Some answers say God allows evil for a greater purpose. Some say evil is God's punishment.

Not only do the usual answers fail, they don't support the truth God loves everyone all the time. God Can't gives a believable answer to why a good and powerful God doesn't prevent evil.

Author Thomas Jay Oord says God’s love is inherently uncontrolling. God loves everyone and everything, so God can't control anyone or anything. This means God cannot prevent evil singlehandedly. God can’t stop evildoers, whether human, animal, organism, or inanimate objects and forces.

In God Can't, Oord gives a plausible reason why some are healed but many others are not. God always works to heal everyone, but sometimes our bodies, organisms, or other creatures do not cooperate with God's healing work. Or the conditions of creation are not right for the healing God wants to do.

Some people think God causes or allows suffering to teach us lessons or build our character. God Can't disagrees. Oord says God squeezes good from the evil God didn’t want in the first place. God uses pain and suffering without willing or even allowing it.

Most people think God can overcome evil singlehandedly. In God Can't, Oord says God needs cooperation for love to reign now and later. This leads to a better view of the afterlife called, “relentless love.” It rejects traditional ideas of heaven, hell, and annihilation. Relentless love holds to the possibility all creatures and all creation will respond to God’s love.

God Can't is written in understandable language. Thomas Jay Oord's status as a world-renown theologian brings credibility to the book’s radical ideas. He explains these ideas through true stories, illustrations, and scripture.

God Can't is for those who want answers to tragedy, abuse, and other evils that make sense!

What They're Saying...

“If conventional notions of God make less and less sense to you, you’ll find Thomas Jay Oord’s new book a breath of fresh air. Simply put, “God Can’t” presents an understanding of God that thoughtful, ethical people can believe in.”
-- Brian D. McLaren, author of The Great Spiritual Migration

"I did not want this book to end. I wish Dr. Oord had written it 100 years ago, or 1000 years ago... To find your understanding of life and your love for God renewed, read this book."
-- Dr. Karen Strand Winslow, Ph.D., Biblical and Jewish Studies Professor of Bible, Azusa Pacific University

“As a clinical psychologist working with people in trauma, I owe Thomas Jay Oord an enormous debt of gratitude for recasting the so-called problem of evil in terms that are conceptually satisfying, theologically consistent, and pastorally liberating.”
-- Dr Roger Bretherton- Principal Lecturer at the University of Lincoln (UK), Chair of the British Association of Christians in Psychology

“Victims of trauma sometimes hear theological responses that imply their suffering is somehow “God’s will." A more careful theological reflection on the nature of the power of a God who is love can help. Oord gives us a clear and compelling alternative in this profoundly insightful and admirably concrete and accessible book.”
-- Dr. Anna Case-Winters, Professor of Theology at McCormick Theological Seminary

“I know of no book that speaks to suffering with the depth of theological sophistication and psychological sensitivity as God Can’t. This book is a rare combination of depth and accessibility, truly written for the wounded. I recommend it to my students, parishioners, and therapy clients.”
-- Dr. Brad D. Strawn, Professor of the Integration of Psychology and Theology, Fuller Theological Seminary

To see more endorsements and reviews, go to GodCant.com
https://www.amazon.com/If-God-Good-Fait ... 002OK2OPS/

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If God Is Good: Faith in the Midst of Suffering and Evil

Every one of us will experience suffering. Many of us are experiencing it now. As we have seen in recent years, evil is real in our world, present and close to each one of us.

In such difficult times, suffering and evil beg questions about God--Why would an all-good and all-powerful God create a world full of evil and suffering? And then, how can there be a God if suffering and evil exist?

These are ancient questions, but also modern ones as well. Atheists such as Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and even former believers like Bart Ehrman answer the question simply: The existence of suffering and evil proves there is no God.

In this captivating new book, best-selling author Randy Alcorn challenges the logic of disbelief, and brings a fresh, realistic, and thoroughly biblical insight to the issues these important questions raise.

Alcorn offers insights from his conversations with men and women whose lives have been torn apart by suffering, and yet whose faith in God burns brighter than ever. He reveals the big picture of who God is and what God is doing in the world–now and forever. And he equips you to share your faith more clearly and genuinely in this world of pain and fear.

"As he did in his best-selling book, Heaven, Randy Alcorn delves deep into a profound subject, and through compelling stories, provocative questions and answers, and keen biblical understanding, he brings assurance and hope to all."
-Publishers Weekly
https://www.amazon.com/How-Could-Loving ... 001VN2N0U/

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How Could A Loving God

The heartache of grief and loss can crash against our Christian faith like tidal waves. Well-meaning people who toss out a religious nugget of wisdom hoping to bring quick relief often worsen the emotional pain of trauma and tragedy.

In How Could a Loving God, Christian apologist Ken Ham offers sound biblical counsel and answers to some of life's greatest questions:

* Why does God allow my suffering?
* How do I move beyond this anger at God?
* Why didn't God prevent this from happening?

This is a comprehensive, personal, and biblically sound account of one family's struggle with suffering in a fallen world. With sensitivity to the person whose perception of God has been calloused by tragedy, Ken Ham makes clear the hope-giving answers found in the pages of Scripture.

How Could a Loving God is an excellent resource for Biblical counselors, pastors, teachers and laymen. Use it in Bible classes and have it on hand as a reference when you or someone you love is faced with shocking news and great grief.
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Re: Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Post by flowerthief00 » June 17th, 2019, 7:21 am

It has been said that one look at what is allowed to happen in this world suggests that IF there is a god one of the following must be true:

1. He is weak/powerless
2. He is evil

As neither of these two possibilities are desirable we should all be hoping like mad that there is not a god.

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Re: Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Post by Cornfed » June 17th, 2019, 7:46 am

flowerthief00 wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 7:21 am
It has been said that one look at what is allowed to happen in this world suggests that IF there is a god one of the following must be true:

1. He is weak/powerless
2. He is evil

As neither of these two possibilities are desirable we should all be hoping like mad that there is not a god.
Or it could be a form of training for the hereafter.

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Re: Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Post by flowerthief00 » June 23rd, 2019, 6:51 am

Dubious. If you are a parent who has to watch your child die from a respiratory infection at the age of 6 months...well that could be a form of training for you. But what the hell kind of training was that for your child?

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Re: Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Post by flowerthief00 » June 23rd, 2019, 8:06 am

If there is a soul-recycling plant up there in the sky it may be time to upgrade the machinery, because imho the vast majority of lives led on earth do not turn out great.

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Re: Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Post by flowerthief00 » June 23rd, 2019, 8:48 am

Thus the chap running this boot camp would be either weak/incompetent or he would be evil (or at least not good).

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Re: Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Post by Neo » June 23rd, 2019, 2:51 pm

It's probably better if a person refrains from ascribing evil characteristics to his Maker. You never know. It may mean the difference between receiving mercy or not receiving mercy, on the Day of Judgment. People shouldn't forsake their eternal inheritance. There is a New Earth in the future for all who believe in Christ. There will be no death, no sin, no toil, no weariness, no starvation; only abundance, joy, rejoicing, and peace.

This life is just a test to see where and how much reward each person will receive. It's an evaluation period.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Post by flowerthief00 » June 23rd, 2019, 8:29 pm

My problem with Pascal's Wager is that it makes big fat assumptions about the nature of this Maker. If the deity is evil then a person who believes and worships him won't necessarily wind up better than a person who doesn't, because who knows what twisted reward an evil deity will bestow. The person who doesn't believe might receive more mercy in the end for all we know. Unless we have more evidence to tell us what kind of deity we're dealing with, we're just as well not to apply Pascal's Wager. And if we did have that evidence then Pascal's Wager would likely be obsolete.

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Re: Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Post by Shemp » June 24th, 2019, 4:25 am

flowerthief00 wrote:
June 23rd, 2019, 8:29 pm
...The person who doesn't believe might receive more mercy in the end for all we know. ...
Exactly. I know if I was in charge of handing out rewards and punishments, I would condemn Neo to at least billion years of roasting in hellfire for having misused his brains and for trying to mislead other people, whereas the nonbelievers would get to sit in the clouds with 72 virgins each while laughing at Neo suffering down below.

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Re: Why does God allow evil, suffering, injustice to exist, and bad things to happen to good people?

Post by Neo » June 24th, 2019, 5:47 am

Shemp wrote:
June 24th, 2019, 4:25 am
flowerthief00 wrote:
June 23rd, 2019, 8:29 pm
...The person who doesn't believe might receive more mercy in the end for all we know. ...
Exactly. I know if I was in charge of handing out rewards and punishments, I would condemn Neo to at least billion years of roasting in hellfire for having misused his brains and for trying to mislead other people, whereas the nonbelievers would get to sit in the clouds with 72 virgins each while laughing at Neo suffering down below.
I have condemned no one. Nor have I wished eternal damnation upon anyone's soul. There is One Lawgiver and One Judge.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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