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Why Christianity is 100 Percent Anti-Freedom and Pro-Tyranny

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Postby Winston » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:40 pm

George Carlin on why religion is bullshit.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XekUEXULMXg[/youtube]

Here freethinker Darryl Sloan of Ireland explains why you'll never win a debate against religion.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3V6WbiXSBk[/youtube]
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Postby gsjackson » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:43 pm

MrPeabody wrote:What is this difference between the god of the New Testament and the god of the Old Testament? Last time I checked, every Christian Church has a bible that includes both the Old Testament and the New Testament. That is because Christians believe it is the same god who revealed his truth in both collections. Christians come up with some of the strangest arguments to justify their past. The people for whom Christianity work typically have a simple faith and don't think about it too much. The intellectuals torture themselves and live lives of confusion and doubt which they periodically prop up using tortured logic.


The difference between a wrathful, judgmental, bloodthirsty god and a loving, forgiving one, which is apparent to Christians who don't feel bound in their interpretation by church dogma.

I'm not sure where Christian apologists of an intellectual bent would fall on the contentment scale. Those calling themselves Catholics, such as GK Chesterton, Hilaire Belloc and John Henry Newman, were generally viewed as jolly (or at least peaceful) souls. Many envy Lewis's way of life. You can read a Time magazine cover story on him from 1949 that describes a typical day in which he convened a scintillating class at Cambridge and when it was done virtually all the students repaired with him to a nearby pub to continue delving into the mysteries of life -- a scene scarcely imaginable in the sterile PC academic environment today.

Religious belief is only one factor in cotentment, though. Certainly physical health -- which Chesterton clearly neglected and died young -- enters into it, along with many other things. Personally, I don't see why belief has to be so discriminatory and condemnatory -- as you and Winston are being here. Just pick and choose from what's out there, like you advocate doing with countries. I'm an alltheist and belive in all good things. Again, Huston Smith's book is great for getting at the heart of what is right about the great religious traditions -- all of them.
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Re: Why Christianity is 100 percent anti-freedom and pro-tyr

Postby The_Hero_of_Men » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:50 pm

Winston wrote:If you are a true loyal Christian, according to the Bible, then you are 100 percent pro-tyranny and anti-freedom. This is easily provable from the Bible itself. Face it. What you Christians are in denial about, is that clearly, the God depicted in your Bible is an evil tyrant who kills anyone who disobeys him, often for trivial reasons, and places ZERO value on freedom, freethought and rationality. His law demands 100 percent obedience and subservience, threatening death and damnation as a consequence for even one noncompliance, which is insane. That is crystal clear. NOTHING in the Bible supports human freedom, free choice, or independence at all! Period.

What this means is that you cannot be a devout Christian and believe in freedom or free choice at the same time. And if you do, then you are a hypocrite. Your religious doctrines and Bible clearly declare that anything less than complete obedience and subservience to God's will is sin and deserves nothing less than death and damnation, according to God's law. To do what you want rather than submit to God's will is seen as rebellion and sin against God. The Bible is clear on this. What this means that by being a Christian, you stand for ABSOLUTE TYRANNY, the murder of anyone who disobeys, and are totally AGAINST freedom, free choice, independence, freethinking and reason. You can deny that all you want, but the fact is the fact.

Throughout the Bible, one simple message is consistent: OBEY GOD OR DIE! And in the New Testament, this has been modified as: Believe or be eternally damned! There are plenty of examples in the Bible where God killed people for simple disobedience, often for trivial reasons. For example, when Lot's wife looked back at Sodom and Gomorrah burning, disobeying God, she instantly turned to salt (Genesis 19). Now really, is looking at something really worth the death penalty? Well not really, but brainwashed Christians believe that God is 100 percent just and perfect (simply because they were told so), and therefore anything he does must be completely right. It's obvious circular reasoning. And in 2 Kings 2:23-24, God sent out bears to kill 42 children after they made fun of one of his prophets.

Sometimes, God even kills innocent people to their leaders in the Bible. For example, in Exodus 12, he sent an angel to kill the firstborn children of Egypt, just to punish the Pharaoh. And in 1 Chronicles 21:14, God kills 70,000 people just to punish King David. Now, is killing innocent children and people for the disobedience of their leader a moral thing to do? I don't think so. But again, brainwashed Christians believe that God is 100 percent just and perfect (with no valid basis) and so will claim that whatever he does must be right. Again, complete circular reasoning. No one who does such things would be considered a decent person in the real world, but a monster. Yet a God who is claimed to be 100 percent perfect, good and just does such things?! WTF? Christians, seriously, how is your God any different than Hitler? Your God has killed far more people than Hitler has, according to your own Bible. He even wiped out a whole world full of people during the Flood of Noah (if you believe it that is). Have a look here at the tally sheet of the number of people God killed, according to the Bible: http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Debunk ... Page22.htm

Now, if your God is worse than Hitler, then how could you think he is 100 percent flawless, just, righteous, and good?! Are you out of your mind?! Are you completely insane?! This just goes to show how badly your mind has been hijacked to believe whatever you are told, and how your reason has been completely shut off. Basically, you believe this insanity because you were TOLD to, which makes you really gullible and naive. As Atheists say, you don't have to be intelligent to be a Christian. Obviously, that's true.

Anyway, the bottom line is that by worshipping a 100 percent tyrannical deity who kills and damns anyone who exercises freedom and disobeys him, it means that you yourself stand for absolute tyranny, the murder of those who do not follow your faith, and are totally anti-freedom, anti-free choice, anti-independence, and anti-freethinking. Furthermore, the fact that you deem such a deity to be 100 percent flawless and perfect, reveals your insanity and the degree to which you've been utterly brainwashed to the extreme.

Ask yourself this: If you went into a typical Christian Bible-believing church and told the minister, "I am a born again Christian who loves Jesus, but I don't agree with everything God says in the Bible, nor do I think his actions were always right." do you think he would say, "That's ok. You don't have to agree with God on everything. Just love him and love others. That's all he wants you to do." HELL NO! The minister would give you a lecture and tell you that YOU ARE WRONG, because God is the definition of morality and whatever he does must be right, just and perfect, and that you have no right to question him because you are just a mere creation while he is the creator, blah blah blah.

All copouts again, of course, but you get the idea. To truly follow Christian teaching, you are NOT allowed to think for yourself, disagree with anything in the Bible, or have any dissenting opinion. Your opinions are worthless, according to Christianity, and you are WRONG if you don't agree with everything in the Bible and with the tenets of Christian teaching. This just goes to show exactly what I've said, that Christianity is completely anti-freethought and all about obedience, fear, tyranny and punishment. It's not something I would want to be a part of, and fortunately, I don't have to be, because there is no logical reason to believe that its extreme teachings are true, nevermind infallible.

Remember that just because someone or some book tells you something, doesn't mean it's true. See my other essay here for an elaboration on this: http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Christian_Problems.htm

You Christian denialists ought to look up the teachings of forbidden religions such as Gnosticism, which place God and Satan in opposite but more sensible roles based on their actions. (See here for an overview: http://www.theforbiddenreligion.com/gnostic-book.htm) As an example, right from the start in Genesis, when Adam and Eve ate the fruit off the Tree of Life, they did not die, but their eyes were opened, knowing both good and evil, just as the Serpent said. What this means is that God's warning that they would "surely die" by eating the fruit off that tree was a lie, while Satan's prediction was true. So how could Satan, the epitome of evil, tell the truth, while God, the epitome of goodness, truth and perfection, tell a lie?! I know you have cop outs for this, but again, you are denying the obvious. The truth is often the opposite of what we are taught.

Also, remember that there are other versions of God (or Gods) too, that don't require him to be 100 percent flawless and perfect. The Greek Gods, for example, had all the positive qualities and negative vices that humans have. And the deities in Hinduism has a mixture of good and bad traits too. The concept that God is perfect is a Judeo-Christian and Muslim creation. No one has to be perfect, not even a God. Whatever the case, the evidence suggests that we make God in OUR own image, not the other way around. That's why we project our flawed traits and egos onto him, when a perfect being shouldn't be like that.

The lesson we can learn from that is that we need to look within ourselves, for that's where the answers lie. Religion is like fast food theology. But truth is not like fast food. You cannot get truth from a convenient package or book. It requires a lifelong process of searching, going through layers and layers - for once you discover a glimpse of a certain truth, there are more layers beyond it.

The choice is yours - You either think for yourself, or let someone else do the thinking for you.


I agree with you, Winston. A few weeks ago I went to this retreat that was being held where everyone just got together and talked about various things. I eventually said something about "god" being a petty tyrant. Soon after, this middle aged woman looked at me and borderline yelled, "Are you calling MY god a tyrant?!" and she got up and left... about a week after that, I went to sit somewhere and she was there. As soon as I sat down, she left.

Isn't that funny?
Wielding the blade of evil's bane, he sealed the dark one away and gave the land light. This man, who traveled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Men. The man's tale was passed down through generations until it became legend...
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Postby gsjackson » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:53 pm

Correction: The Time cover story on C.S. Lewis was Sept. 8, 1947, not 1949. And he was at Oxford at that time rather than Cambridge. Hey, it's been 35 years since I read it.
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Postby MrPeabody » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:16 pm

gsjackson wrote:
MrPeabody wrote:What is this difference between the god of the New Testament and the god of the Old Testament? Last time I checked, every Christian Church has a bible that includes both the Old Testament and the New Testament. That is because Christians believe it is the same god who revealed his truth in both collections. Christians come up with some of the strangest arguments to justify their past. The people for whom Christianity work typically have a simple faith and don't think about it too much. The intellectuals torture themselves and live lives of confusion and doubt which they periodically prop up using tortured logic.


The difference between a wrathful, judgmental, bloodthirsty god and a loving, forgiving one, which is apparent to Christians who don't feel bound in their interpretation by church dogma.

I'm not sure where Christian apologists of an intellectual bent would fall on the contentment scale. Those calling themselves Catholics, such as GK Chesterton, Hilaire Belloc and John Henry Newman, were generally viewed as jolly (or at least peaceful) souls. Many envy Lewis's way of life. You can read a Time magazine cover story on him from 1949 that describes a typical day in which he convened a scintillating class at Cambridge and when it was done virtually all the students repaired with him to a nearby pub to continue delving into the mysteries of life -- a scene scarcely imaginable in the sterile PC academic environment today.

Religious belief is only one factor in cotentment, though. Certainly physical health -- which Chesterton clearly neglected and died young -- enters into it, along with many other things. Personally, I don't see why belief has to be so discriminatory and condemnatory -- as you and Winston are being here. Just pick and choose from what's out there, like you advocate doing with countries. I'm an alltheist and belive in all good things. Again, Huston Smith's book is great for getting at the heart of what is right about the great religious traditions -- all of them.


If it's working for you then that's great. Unlike Christianity, Buddhist don't believe in conversion. Many people just don't fit into the one size fits all religion. In India they call the path of devotion to a deity "Bhakti yoga". It is just one of the yogas available and if you aren't suited to it then you just practice another yoga. Many of us are reacting to the pain of having an illogical system imposed on us that we didn't want by the intolerant followers of a one-way belief system. I just want men out there to know there is a logical alternative. There is no reason for them to struggle with the byzantine and convoluted ways of working out the great "mystery" when the Buddha was a scientist of the mind who went to great lengths to make the path of the Dharma explicit and clear. They will eventually discover that they are better off getting on some path to get them through the vicissitudes and challanges of life.
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Postby gsjackson » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:19 pm

And I'd just like them to know that if, by chance, the vicissitudes and challenges win, if, despite their best efforts to be (quoting one of Winston's aforementioned "free thinkers," Robert Ingersoll) the "master of my fate and captain of my soul," they become so overwhelmed by the perversity of their own nature, by a conviction of their own sinfulness, lack of self-discipline and inadequacy, so much that they feel life is an impossibility, there is a religion that offers a path out of that condition, and that religion is Christianity.

Approached from this direction, Christianity does involve a psychological self-surrender and effort to bind your will to that of the divine, and I suppose this can be construed as a loss of "freedom."

There are a lot of fruitful paths out there, and the world's major religious traditions are a good place to investigate some of them. Personally, I pursue Emersonian individualism with a Christian underlay, and my problem with Buddhism is that it requires the demolition of individualism. India may create a lot of internal contentment, but its outward accomplishments don't seem terribly impressive.
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Postby gsjackson » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:27 pm

Jeez, got to correct myself again. William Ernest Henley wrote "I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul." Ingersoll, a contemporary of Henley, would probably endorse the sentiment. The 19th century efforts to accommodate a fatuous Darwinism, and jettison Christianity while keeping its emotional intensity and principledness, were heroic, but ultimately pretty depressing.
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Postby MrPeabody » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:31 am

gsjackson wrote:And I'd just like them to know that if, by chance, the vicissitudes and challenges win, if, despite their best efforts to be (quoting one of Winston's aforementioned "free thinkers," Robert Ingersoll) the "master of my fate and captain of my soul," they become so overwhelmed by the perversity of their own nature, by a conviction of their own sinfulness, lack of self-discipline and inadequacy, so much that they feel life is an impossibility, there is a religion that offers a path out of that condition, and that religion is Christianity.

Approached from this direction, Christianity does involve a psychological self-surrender and effort to bind your will to that of the divine, and I suppose this can be construed as a loss of "freedom."

There are a lot of fruitful paths out there, and the world's major religious traditions are a good place to investigate some of them. Personally, I pursue Emersonian individualism with a Christian underlay, and my problem with Buddhism is that it requires the demolition of individualism. India may create a lot of internal contentment, but its outward accomplishments don't seem terribly impressive.


Sounds Good. Buddhism doesn't demolish individualism. The next time you use the number zero, remember that it was invented in India.
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Postby fschmidt » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:37 am

Winston wrote:What verses in the Bible place value on freedom, freethought or free choice?


Please read Struggle for Freedom which explains how the Torah supports freedom. It is true that the New Testament and Christianity oppose free thought but the Old Testament doesn't. The Old Testament never tells you what to believe. It is only a set of moral laws required to maintain a free society.

One can argue whether a law increases or decreases freedom. Does a law against murder decrease your freedom to kill or increase your freedom to live? I personally see the laws of the Torah as an excellent balance designed to produce a near optimal society. While Jesus actually advocated keeping Torah law, Paul hijacked Christianity, threw out the sensible Torah laws, and replaced it with intolerance of free thought. The result of this is modern Christianity.
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Postby Guyver » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:24 am

Winston wrote:What verses in the Bible place value on freedom, freethought or free choice? Show me some.


I can think of one, Galatians 5:1

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."

Sounds like good news to me. :)
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Postby Winston » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:20 am

Guyver wrote:
Winston wrote:What verses in the Bible place value on freedom, freethought or free choice? Show me some.


I can think of one, Galatians 5:1

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."

Sounds like good news to me. :)


That's just a play on words though. I could also say that you have to get a job in order to be "free to work", otherwise you are a slave to laziness, idleness and poverty. But that doesn't change the fact that a typical job enslaves you to a routine.

I could also say that by joining the military, you are "free to fight in the war", but that's not freedom at all.

Anyone can attach the "freedom label" to anything, even if it takes away your freedom, free will, and enslaves you.
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Postby Winston » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:23 am

I just added the second paragraph below to the essay. Anyone want to comment on it?

"There are plenty of examples in the Bible where God killed people, often innocent (including women and children), for trivial reasons. For example, when Lot's wife looked back at Sodom and Gomorrah burning, disobeying God, she instantly turned to salt (Genesis 19). Now really, is looking at something really worth the death penalty? Well not really, but brainwashed Christians believe that God is 100 percent just and perfect (simply because they were told so), and therefore anything he does must be completely right. It's obvious circular reasoning. And in 2 Kings 2:23-24, God sent out bears to kill 42 children after they made fun of one of his prophets. Sometimes, God even kills innocent people to their leaders in the Bible. For example, in Exodus 12, he sent an angel to kill the firstborn children of Egypt, just to punish the Pharaoh. And in 1 Chronicles 21:14, God kills 70,000 people just to punish King David.

The BIGGEST HYPOCRISY in all this is that the Christian God gave as one of his Ten Commandments the law that says, "Thou shalt not kill." How can you respect a God who is such a big hypocrite? You can't, unless you are totally brainwashed and your sense of reason is hijacked. But of course, brainwashed people do not know that they are brainwashed, otherwise they would try to deprogram themselves."
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Postby polya » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:08 am

The catholic church is especially bad. It pretended all its rules came from God, when they were made by man - especially indulgences and the idea of Purgatory (although it sounds like my old life in the USA - LOL)
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