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How do agnostics/atheists form their philosophical beliefs?

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Winston
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Post by Winston » June 22nd, 2012, 9:10 pm

zacb wrote:I guess what makes killing a defacto standard , and not just a relative whim someone believes is wrong?
That's a bizarre question. Would you want someone to kill you?

Don't harm others or hurt others - just follow that and you'll be fine. I like the libertarian philosophy.
zacb, first you have to distinguish between atheists and non-theists. Atheists are religion-hating intolerant jerks, while non-theists simply don't believe in God. I discuss this in detail in Atheism. Atheists are immoral but non-theists may be moral. Buddhists and Confucianists are examples of moral non-theists. There are a few non-theistic sources of morality. One is to simply have faith in the way/morality of some moral system. Another is to develop one's own internal moral sense. Morality is an emotion which can be developed.
True to some extent. There are militant hateful Atheists, such as Richard Dawkins, who ridicules everyone who believes in God or the supernatural. And there are quiet Atheists like Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith", who doesn't believe that Atheists should have labels, because, as he says, people who don't believe in astrology are not called "non-astrologers", so Atheists don't need a word to label them. They simply don't believe in God, but that in itself is not a belief. That's his argument.

But even people like him are trying to argue that one should only listen to science and not spirituality. They may not be as militant about it, but they use the same fundamentalist materialist arguments of scientism just the same.
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Post by fschmidt » June 23rd, 2012, 12:46 am

Winston wrote:And there are quiet Atheists like Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith"
I never heard of Sam Harris, but I looked up the "The End of Faith" on Amazon and it says:

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"The End of Faith articulates the dangers and absurdities of organized religion so fiercely and so fearlessly that I felt relieved as I read it, vindicated....Harris writes what a sizable number of us think, but few are willing to say."
----------------

Yup, sounds like a typical religion-hating intolerant jerk to me.
But even people like him are trying to argue that one should only listen to science and not spirituality. They may not be as militant about it, but they use the same fundamentalist materialist arguments of scientism just the same.
I just call bullshit on this. A real understanding of science supports religious morality and shows liberal/atheist morality to be absurd.

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Post by noog » July 28th, 2012, 2:48 pm

I encourage you to read the works of Robert Green Ingersoll (there is a lot free online and also audio podcasts) if you are wondering how a healthy agnostic views the world.

link: http://www.infidels.org/library/histori ... ingersoll/
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Post by fschmidt » July 28th, 2012, 7:53 pm

noog wrote:I encourage you to read the works of Robert Green Ingersoll (there is a lot free online and also audio podcasts) if you are wondering how a healthy agnostic views the world.

link: http://www.infidels.org/library/histori ... ingersoll/
Another religion hating jerk. About the Bible, he writes:

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They forget its ignorance and savagery, its hatred of liberty, its religious persecution; they remember heaven, but they forget the dungeon of eternal pain. They forget that it imprisons the brain and corrupts the heart. They forget that it is the enemy of intellectual freedom. Liberty is my religion. Liberty of hand and brain -- of thought and labor, liberty is a word hated by kings -- loathed by popes. It is a word that shatters thrones and altars -- that leaves the crowned without subjects, and the outstretched hand of superstition without alms. Liberty is the blossom and fruit of justice -- the perfume of mercy. Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy.
--------------------------------------
http://www.infidels.org/library/histori ... bible.html

What he fails to mention is that every democracy in history came from a strongly religious culture with a dominant patriarchal god. No other type of culture ever produced democracy or liberty.

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Re: How do agnostics/atheists form their philosophical beliefs?

Post by Winston » January 14th, 2018, 8:48 pm

Here's another thing I don't get about atheists.

They claim they don't believe in God because they can't see or touch God. Yet they are eager to believe in the multiple universe theory to try to explain away the fine tuning of the universe argument, even though they cannot see or touch other universes, and there's no evidence for them at all. Go figure. Same with evolution, the big bang theory and dark matter. They cannot see or touch any of those too, nor prove them. Yet they claim to be scientific and rational?! Geez. Why are they such hypocrites and liars who pretend to have no biases? Lol

They claim evolution is a proven fact even though they cannot prove it and cannot find any fossil evidence or bones for any transitional species or intermediary species, for example between fish and reptiles, or fish and mammals, or reptiles and birds, or ape-like ancestors and humans, etc, which must exist for Evolution to be true, which Darwin himself admitted in his book "Origin of the Species". Yet they've found NONE at all, not even one! Nor can they find evidence or examples for any beneficial mutations that add information to the genome, which must exist for Darwinian evolution to work. In fact, they cannot even show that any form of bacteria can transform or "evolve" into another species of bacteria, which has never been observed. Thus their evidence is technically a big fat ZERO! So if evolution has zero evidence to support it, how is it a fact?! Makes no sense. And how can they believe in something that they cannot see or touch, as with God? They contradict themselves greatly. Yet they lie and claim to be unbiased, logical and rational. Go figure.

Furthermore they claim that God is not necessary. But how can God be unnecessary since there's no evidence at all for macro-evolution, not even a little? And no way to create life from non life. No way to create the first living cell from non living matter with lightning striking a pool of mud, via abiogenesis, as Stanley Miller tried to do in the 1950's but failed, and which Louis Pasteur proved to be impossible, etc. Basic logic says that life cannot be created by non life. Just as consciousness cannot be created by non consciousness. Atheists have never been able to change or disprove that. Also, philosophically speaking it makes more sense that everything came from something rather than nothing, since things come from other things, but not from nothing. So theism makes more sense than atheism from a philosophical standpoint. Yet atheists can't get around this.

So how can God be unnecessary? It makes no sense and is untrue. Yet they claim they are all about logic, science and rationality? Wtf? How do they sleep at night believing and touting so many lies? Shouldn't they know better? Aren't they educated adults?

Atheists have never been able to change the basic facts and principles that don't fit their theories on evolution, cosmology or the origin of life. All their attempts to take God out of the equation have FAILED and none of their theories work. So they ought to change their theories and ideas, like any logical scientific person is supposed to, by updating their beliefs to fit the data. Yet atheists stubbornly refuse to out of their misguided ideology and hatred for God. Instead, they do the opposite, by trying to alter the data to fit their beliefs, often using denial and deception, which is very unscientific, irrational, illogical and dishonest as well. Shame on them!

Furthermore, they claim that stuff like dark matter must exist in order to fill in the gaps of their cosmological theories on gravity and mass, hence it is an ad hoc invention of theirs. Yet they cannot ever accept that God is an explanation that can fill in the gaps too? As if that were a taboo and big no no. Why the big double standard and bias? Obviously it's due to their psychology and ideology of needing to believe in a godless creatorless universe, and has nothing to do with rationality or science, especially since God and science are not mutually exclusive as they falsely claim, but can easily co-exist, philosophically speaking.

They also claim that atheism is not a religion, however many dictionaries define religion as "any belief system that is rigid and adhered to dogmatically" even if there's no worship of a deity. Moreover, atheists believe in a lot of things without evidence and take on faith and ideology alone, such as evolution, the big bang and multiple universe theory. So their beliefs and paradigm do constitute a religion, or at least a dogmatic belief that ignores evidence and reason in favor of their ideology. This is pretty much a form of fundamentalism, but at the opposite extreme from Christianity.

Furthermore, evolution is not science. Neither is the big bang or multiple universes. Science has to do with repeatable experiments that you can do to test a hypothesis and either validate it or falsify it. None of the aforementioned can be tested or validated. Hence atheists lie again when they claim that evolution is science. Science is a tool and methodology, not an ideology. Don't these atheists have a conscience? Why don't they feel guilty for their dishonesty and delusions?

Either way, atheists are certainly not objective or unbiased. Most of the atheists I've seen on YouTube - especially big names like Richard Dawkins, Bill Nye and Lawrence Krauss - when they speak about God and religion they do so in a very hateful, spiteful, condescending tone and emotion. That's definitely not unbiased. Moreover, what's ironic is that you gotta wonder, how can they hate something that they believe doesn't even exist? This speaks volumes and indicates they are in denial and that their paradigm is unnatural. Thus their opinions are much less credible than they will admit, since hateful people often cannot reason soundly or think clearly, and are prone to making gross exaggerations, selective cherry picking and distortions.

The bottom line is that atheism is an incomplete and inadequate view of reality, because it cannot account for or explain many important things, such as: consciousness, origin of life from non-life, miracles and answered prayers that defy coincidence, supernatural and paranormal phenomena, compelling reincarnation cases that have no materialist explanations, near death experiences that cannot be explained by materialist explanations, etc. Instead, it denies all these things and turns a blind eye to them. However, denial does not constitute a valid argument and does not erase the reality or evidence of all these phenomena. Thus the atheistic paradigm is woefully flawed, faulty and inadequate to explain reality, life or the universe. It is nothing more than dogmatic opinion, hate and bias at the core.

Now I'm not saying religion or new age movements have all the answers either. They have their flaws, problems and inadequacies too. Every paradigm and belief system does. But the atheistic paradigm is the lamest of them all. It does not explain anything at all and only denies, hates and ridicules.

Notice also that the greatest minds and geniuses in history were not atheists. For example, Albert Einstein, Nikola Tesla, and Thomas Edison, the greatest geniuses of the 20th Century, were not atheists. Nor were geniuses in the past such as Leonardo da Vinci. Not even great historical authors who were critics of organized religion and Christianity, such as Mark Twain, Robert Ingersoll, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, etc were atheists. Nor were the great science pioneers that atheists admire, such as Isaac Newton or Galileo, atheists either. Not even Charles Darwin, their biggest idol, was an atheist.

All this speaks volumes. And indicates that atheism is unnatural, abnormal and messed up, like a freak of nature. Nor does atheism have any answers to any of life's mysteries nor any mysteries of cosmology. It has nothing, and is useless and has no value. Atheism is merely a position of hate for God and religion. That's all it is. Thus it's the most illogical and unwise position that one can take, as well as amoral and degenerate too, since it retards your brain and consciousness, and closes your mind into a small artificial box as well. And it's soulless and spiritless too, since what kind of soul would deny that they have a soul, and what kind of spirit would deny that it has a spirit? What could be weirder than that?! Or dumber? Such a being that would deny its own soul and spirit must have the most miserable existence. You gotta pity such a person. Enough said.
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Re: How do agnostics/atheists form their philosophical beliefs?

Post by Winston » January 14th, 2018, 11:39 pm

As far as I know, the reasons why Atheists come to their beliefs about the non-existence of God has nothing to do with logic or science. It's usually one or more of the following:

1) They don't like the idea of any divine being watching over them 24/7. They want to do whatever they want without any accountability. Doesn't mean they want to do bad things or are immoral. Just that they don't like being accountable to any authority above them or be watched all the time by a deity or anybody. If you probe atheists about this, they will admit to this.

2) They blame God for all the evil, suffering and injustice in the world and cannot reconcile a good God with it. They struggle with it for a while and then give up and turn to atheism or agnosticism as their solution to end the inner struggle. Many atheists and agnostics will gladly admit to this. Author and historian Bart Ehrman admits to this in his books.

3) They had a personal tragedy or misfortune in their life that they blame God for and hold him responsible. Thus their hatred and disdain for God and religion. This one is more personal and private, but atheists don't usually like to admit it or talk about it. See the movie "Red Lights" with Sigourney Weaver in which this is revealed about the main dogmatic atheist character. Or the Christian movie "God is Not Dead" in which this is revealed about the main atheist antagonist too.

Btw, to clarify some earlier post here: Buddhists and New Agers have morals too. They believe in karma as a consequence of their actions. So yes one can have a moral system without a theistic religion. Also, Buddhists are not purely atheistic. They do believe in deities, but the deities they believe in are not all powerful, just higher beings on higher planes of existence who are subject to suffering and the laws of karma too, just as we are, and have not reached nirvana either.
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Re: How do agnostics/atheists form their philosophical beliefs?

Post by Winston » January 15th, 2018, 11:47 am

@Adama and @MrMan what do you think of my long rants above about atheists?
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Re: How do agnostics/atheists form their philosophical beliefs?

Post by Winston » January 16th, 2018, 12:10 am

Here is my Venetian friend Alex's take on why Atheists want to believe what they do:

[1/13, 8:20 PM] Winston: Because they are fundamentalists and hate god and their beliefs have hijacked their mind?
[1/13, 8:31 PM] Alex From Venice: exactly
[1/13, 8:31 PM] Alex From Venice: because they deeply want to believe that God doesn't exit
[1/13, 8:33 PM] Alex From Venice: so they can live without the horrible feeling that there's someone that knows every single detail and see everything they do and don't do and they will be judge for that
[1/13, 8:34 PM] Alex From Venice: would you feel fine to live in a "big brother" like lifetime?
[1/13, 8:35 PM] Alex From Venice: like having a spy camera always looking at you day and night everywhere with no place where to hide and have some privacy?
[1/13, 8:38 PM] Alex From Venice: if there's an evidence that God is good, maybe they wouldn't feel so unbearable the idea of having God looking at them all the time with no place to hide never
[1/13, 8:39 PM] Alex From Venice: but there's no evident evidence that God is good, its more evident the opposite
[1/13, 8:39 PM] Alex From Venice: so isn't it scary the idea that a God may really exist?
[1/13, 8:40 PM] Alex From Venice: better to believe he doesn't exist
[1/13, 8:40 PM] Alex From Venice: and deny evidence and logic to be able to believe what they like to believe
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Re: How do agnostics/atheists form their philosophical beliefs?

Post by gsjackson » January 16th, 2018, 12:26 am

They want to brand themselves as highly intelligent and brave enough to stare unflinchingly into the abyss. I.e., superior to you and the rest of the lumpen masses. Substantial revenge of the nerds factor at play -- social maladroits who need to find a way to look down on their oppressors.

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