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Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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MrPeabody
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » November 1st, 2017, 5:58 am

“I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God. So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake ... Religion is all bunk.”

-Thomas Edison

MrPeabody
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » November 4th, 2017, 6:24 am

It's interesting that the scholarly consensus now says that Moses did not exist. Also, the archaeologists, even in Israel, admit that the Exodus never happened. If there was an Exodus, there would be all kinds of evidence. But none exists. The entire Bible is a mixture of a little fact and a lot of fiction.

"The scholarly consensus is that the figure of Moses is legendary, and not historical,[8] although a "Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in the southern Transjordan in the mid-late 13th century B.C."[31] Certainly no Egyptian sources mention Moses or the events of Exodus-Deuteronomy, nor has any archaeological evidence been discovered in Egypt or the Sinai wilderness to support the story in which he is the central figure.[32]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

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Adama
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Adama » November 4th, 2017, 6:41 pm

Who says they have found all the records there ever were made? And who says that all the records ever made are in a preserved state? And who says that Moses was significant to them enough for them to go on writing about him? Lots of people conceal their failures and even try to make them look like victories.

If Moses isn't written for them means nothing.

These guys want to try real hard to reinforce that Christ isn't real, so that they can serve their own will. They will not humble themselves to submit to God.

Any way, Moses brought us the commandments, and for that reason, he is one of the most hated men to have ever lived in the world. But if someone hates you for the sake of God, it is really great glory. At first you might feel bad for Moses, but imagine all the glory God has repaid to Moses for what he had to endure in people hating him.

By the way, it isn't the writings of the ancient sorcerers of Egypt which you should look to for verification to the way of life. If you are looking for the truth, it is the Word of God, not the wisdom of ancient Egypt. They were worshipers of the stars, and magicians, and they thought their kings were gods. These were not wise people.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Adama » November 4th, 2017, 6:47 pm

MrPeabody wrote:“I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God. So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake ... Religion is all bunk.”

-Thomas Edison
Of course. The men who are wise according to the world are fools. The great men of this earth are lighter than vanity. They are so busy chasing after their own glory rather than seeking the glory of God. Whoops! Thomas Edison should rather have given thanks to the Lord for life.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Winston » November 9th, 2017, 12:23 pm

MrPeabody wrote:“I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God. So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake ... Religion is all bunk.”

-Thomas Edison
Why would thomas edison say that? He believed in the spirit world and ESP. When he invented the television he was trying to communicate with the spirit world. And he used EVP (electronic voice phenomenon) on tape recorders to try to talk to spirits. So why would he sound like an atheist if he believes in the afterlife and spirits? He may have been against organized religion but believed in the spirit world.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Winston » November 9th, 2017, 12:25 pm

Adama wrote:
MrPeabody wrote:“I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God. So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake ... Religion is all bunk.”

-Thomas Edison
Of course. The men who are wise according to the world are fools. The great men of this earth are lighter than vanity. They are so busy chasing after their own glory rather than seeking the glory of God. Whoops! Thomas Edison should rather have given thanks to the Lord for life.
But adama, your God didnt invent the light bulb. Edison did. Lol. So Edison could do things that God couldn't. Lol. :-D

Edison was a genius and one of the greatest inventors. You certainly cant call him a fool just because he doesnt take the bible literally like you do.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Winston » November 9th, 2017, 1:54 pm

MrPeabody wrote:It's interesting that the scholarly consensus now says that Moses did not exist. Also, the archaeologists, even in Israel, admit that the Exodus never happened. If there was an Exodus, there would be all kinds of evidence. But none exists. The entire Bible is a mixture of a little fact and a lot of fiction.

"The scholarly consensus is that the figure of Moses is legendary, and not historical,[8] although a "Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in the southern Transjordan in the mid-late 13th century B.C."[31] Certainly no Egyptian sources mention Moses or the events of Exodus-Deuteronomy, nor has any archaeological evidence been discovered in Egypt or the Sinai wilderness to support the story in which he is the central figure.[32]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses
This is true. I read about this as well. Theres no historical or archaeological evidence for the Moses story or mass Exodus of many Israelites. If it happened there would have to be traces. Plus the story is improbable for many practical reasons. Also the name if the Pharaoh at the time is not named, which suggests the author was trying to be obscure so he couldnt be discredited. All the Pharaohs of the time are named and none of them fit the one in the book of Exodus.

This just goes to show that the Bible makes no sense when taken literally or factually. When you try to take it literally you run into hundreds of problems that can never be resolved. Fundamentalists like Adama, who take a literal interpretation of the Bible, are not yet evolved consciously enough to understand this. If someday Adama evolves and gains more wisdom, he might understand finally.

In fact, no major event in the Bible has ever been proven historically. If I'm wrong please name one. Sure some places in the Bible do exist, but that doesnt mean the story about them is true. That would be like saying that since the Wizard of Oz starts out in Kansas, which is a real place, then the whole story must be true. That doesnt follow.

The Bible is not pure fiction though. Nor is it entertainment. It has a lot of esoteric messages and symbolism in it that only those initiated into the mystery schools (which have also been subverted) can understand. Such as astrotheology, the meaning of the serpent and garden of eden, etc. It has truth and wisdom in it too. But its coded metaphorically and symbolically in parables, none of which make sense if taken literally.

Take the book of Revelation for example. None of it makes sense literally and if you try to interpret it literally you will tear your hair out. Same with Genesis story.

The Bible has layers of meaning. The outer layer consisting of stories and parables is for the common masses and average people to understand, such as Adama. Fundies like Adama think they are on the highest level of understanding the Bible but they are not. They are on the outer layer designed for the masses. This is what I've learned.

The masses cannot understand higher truth and our human minds cannot understand metaphysical concepts because our minds were designed for the physical plane only. And words have limitations as well. So stories and parables have to be told to simplify things, so that the common man can understand them. Thats why Jesus spoke in parables, otherwise his teachings could not be understood by the masses. Its a way of simplifying higher truth so the masses can grasp it.

Truth seekers eventually understand this. All the greatest scholars of comparative religion understand it too, such as Joseph Campbell and Huston Smith. But people like Adama are stuck at the literal level and cannot break free of it. Yet he mistakenly thinks hes on the highest level of truth. Hes mistaken.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Adama » November 9th, 2017, 2:53 pm

Winston wrote:
MrPeabody wrote:It's interesting that the scholarly consensus now says that Moses did not exist. Also, the archaeologists, even in Israel, admit that the Exodus never happened. If there was an Exodus, there would be all kinds of evidence. But none exists. The entire Bible is a mixture of a little fact and a lot of fiction.

"The scholarly consensus is that the figure of Moses is legendary, and not historical,[8] although a "Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in the southern Transjordan in the mid-late 13th century B.C."[31] Certainly no Egyptian sources mention Moses or the events of Exodus-Deuteronomy, nor has any archaeological evidence been discovered in Egypt or the Sinai wilderness to support the story in which he is the central figure.[32]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses
This is true. I read about this as well. Theres no historical or archaeological evidence for the Moses story or mass Exodus of many Israelites. If it happened there would have to be traces. Plus the story is improbable for many practical reasons. Also the name if the Pharaoh at the time is not named, which suggests the author was trying to be obscure so he couldnt be discredited. All the Pharaohs of the time are named and none of them fit the one in the book of Exodus.

This just goes to show that the Bible makes no sense when taken literally or factually. When you try to take it literally you run into hundreds of problems that can never be resolved. Fundamentalists like Adama, who take a literal interpretation of the Bible, are not yet evolved consciously enough to understand this. If someday Adama evolves and gains more wisdom, he might understand finally.

In fact, no major event in the Bible has ever been proven historically. If I'm wrong please name one. Sure some places in the Bible do exist, but that doesnt mean the story about them is true. That would be like saying that since the Wizard of Oz starts out in Kansas, which is a real place, then the whole story must be true. That doesnt follow.

The Bible is not pure fiction though. Nor is it entertainment. It has a lot of esoteric messages and symbolism in it that only those initiated into the mystery schools (which have also been subverted) can understand. Such as astrotheology, the meaning of the serpent and garden of eden, etc. It has truth and wisdom in it too. But its coded metaphorically and symbolically in parables, none of which make sense if taken literally.

Take the book of Revelation for example. None of it makes sense literally and if you try to interpret it literally you will tear your hair out. Same with Genesis story.

The Bible has layers of meaning. The outer layer consisting of stories and parables is for the common masses and average people to understand, such as Adama. Fundies like Adama think they are on the highest level of understanding the Bible but they are not. They are on the outer layer designed for the masses. This is what I've learned.

The masses cannot understand higher truth and our human minds cannot understand metaphysical concepts because our minds were designed for the physical plane only. And words have limitations as well. So stories and parables have to be told to simplify things, so that the common man can understand them. Thats why Jesus spoke in parables, otherwise his teachings could not be understood by the masses. Its a way of simplifying higher truth so the masses can grasp it.

Truth seekers eventually understand this. All the greatest scholars of comparative religion understand it too, such as Joseph Campbell and Huston Smith. But people like Adama are stuck at the literal level and cannot break free of it. Yet he mistakenly thinks hes on the highest level of truth. Hes mistaken.
Winston, you had me laughing out loud on this one. You have some comical wit.

Since your stance is so clear in your mind, I won't try to reprove you.

I will say this though, reading the Proverbs has brought me enlightenment. In that book God pours out great wisdom and knowledge for mankind, and every man truly needs to know these things for the preservation of his soul. In the proverbs, God tells us who the evil people are, what methods they use and how to interact with them. The law of God is a lamp, which illuminates the path of life. Those who have not found God are in deep darkness. Everything is upside down in their world, and they are so far in darkness that they don't even know they are in darkness.

I don't feel sorry for those who shun God and His wisdom. Every person gets a choice: life or death; righteousness or sin; wisdom or foolishness. Some people think the wisdom of the world is greater than God's wisdom, and they also believe that God wants to keep all knowledge hidden from them. Too bad for them.

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Adama
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Adama » November 9th, 2017, 3:01 pm

Have you heard of Sodom and Gomorrah? It is real. Look it up on Youtube. The place is filled with sulfur and salt. And that is one sign which actually exists in this world.

Another one which people know exists but for some reason they cannot comprehend, is that the foundations of the mountains are on fire, and out of them comes what? Liquid fire and brimstone. Brimstone is just the old word for sulfur. Magma is liquid fire and brimstone, from the depths of the earth. Yet people do not consider that this is proof of hell's existence beneath our feet. They are that far in darkness and blindness.

And liquid fire and brimstone is only one thing that unbelievers will contend with. Also darkness, deprivation of breathable air (clean and unpolluted ; soot for air), deprivation of water, deprivation of light (the dark mountains), deprivation of food, and torn to pieces by ravening tormentors continually for eternity. Unbelievers will find out how real all these things are, after it is too late.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by MrMan » November 12th, 2017, 5:22 pm

The New Testament contains historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. There are books written by eye witnesses of Jesus' resurrection, Matthew, John, Peter. Mark may have been an eye witness. That's a theory, though. He spent a great deal of time with Peter and worked with him and heard his preaching.

Btw, I've read that fragments believed to be from the gospel of Mark were discovered that were dated to the first century.

There was also Paul, who was a witness of the resurrection, in a supernatural experience after the ascension.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » November 12th, 2017, 5:44 pm

There are also the Gnostic gospels discovered at Nag Hammadi, some of them written before the gospels in the Bible (which contradict each other). Several of them speak of the resurrection as being purely spiritual and symbolic. But they were suppressed by the the corrupt Orthodox gang which was supported by the Roman Empire. The New Testament is unreliable. That is something the Muslims got right. The violence unleashed by Orthodox Christianity speaks for itself - by their fruits you shall know them.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by MrMan » November 12th, 2017, 6:18 pm

Repeatedly when I read about the date a gnostic gospel was written, it was in the 200's, at least according to scholars.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Adama » November 12th, 2017, 10:37 pm

Gnosticism is just another form of Satanism posing as Christianity. It is in no way Christian. It is just posing as Christian but it is immediately spotted as Satanic, if you know what Christianity, God and Satan truly are.
There is actually no such thing as Christian Gnosticism, because true Christianity and Gnosticism are mutually exclusive systems of belief. The principles of Gnosticism contradict what it means to be a Christian. Therefore, while some forms of Gnosticism may claim to be Christian, they are in fact decidedly non-Christian.
Thankfully, the early church fathers were nearly unanimous in recognizing these Gnostic scrolls as fraudulent forgeries that espouse false doctrines about Jesus Christ, salvation, God, and every other crucial Christian truth. There are countless contradictions between the Gnostic “gospels” and the Bible. Even when the so-called Christian Gnostics quote from the Bible, they rewrite verses and parts of verses to harmonize with their philosophy
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-gnosticism.html

And anyone with the Holy Ghost who knows the feeling of God's Word can read a little of them and spot immediately, that it is not God's Word.
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » November 12th, 2017, 11:12 pm

The primary argument for "Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John" being authentic was that they were written by the apostles. This was called apostolic succession. However, all modern scholars now agree that they were not written by the original apostles. So the whole argument for authority falls apart. They are no more authentic than the gnostic gospels.

"What proves the validity of the four gospels, Irenaeus says, is that they actually were written by Jesus’ own disciples and their followers, who personally witnessed the events they described. Some contemporary Biblical scholars have challenged this view: few today believe that contemporaries of Jesus actually wrote the New Testament gospels. Although Irenaeus, defending their exclusive legitimacy, insisted that they were written by Jesus’ own followers, we know virtually nothing about the persons who wrote the gospels we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We only know that these writings are attributed to apostles (Matthew and John) or followers of the apostles (Mark and Luke)."

Pagels, Elaine. The Gnostic Gospels

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Winston » November 14th, 2017, 11:09 am

Adama,
Did you consider that those teachings about fire and brimstone are just fear mongering and brainwashing used to control the masses? A thinker and truth seeker should consider that possibility.

Did you ever consider that the Bible is metaphorical and not literal? Like the parables of Jesus?

Esoteric schools teach that Jesus taught two gospels. A simple one for the masses using parables. And a higher level of teachings to his inner circle of disciples, which was closer to gnosticism. So he had an inner and outer teaching and doctrine. The outer teaching was the exoteric and the inner teaching was the esoteric.

When St. Paul popularized Christianity, he preached the exoteric version, the one for the masses. And then the roman government nationalized it as the new state religion 300 years later. Thats what we have today.

There are Bible verses that indicates this, that Jesus had a different teaching for his inner circle of initiates.

Matthew 13:10-13

"10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 [d]Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

So you see, Jesus is telling his disciples that he had to use parables to teach the masses since they cannot understand his higher esoteric teachings, which he called "mysteries". Obviously he must be talking about more than a simple gospel message about "believe and be saved" since a simple message is not a mystery.

And this outer teaching, the exoteric one, is the one that adama has adopted but taken too literally to the extreme, hence become a fundamentalist.
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