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Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Winston
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Winston » December 22nd, 2017, 12:57 am

MrPeabody wrote:
December 21st, 2017, 9:24 pm
It would be interested to find out what the current Muslim scholars believe. Mohammad believed that Jesus was a prophet but that he was never crucified. Where did Mohammad learn about Jesus? He traveled all over the Middle East as a trader, so he must have met some wise men in the know who told him about Jesus but couldn't say the truth to anyone because it was dangerous at that time.
That's a good question. You should search Muslim websites for explanations. Or google the question. The Muslims need to honor the Old Testament too because their Koran is based on it as well.

The Freemasons also believe that Jesus was not crucified I heard, or that he survived the crucifixion and then went to Britain to continue his revolt. That's what is taught to British Freemasons, according to some insiders.

Also some of the Christian Gnostics also believe that Jesus survived the crucifixion and then fled to India or the far east to live the rest of his days in peace and continue his spiritual teachings.

This may be plausible, because Jesus was only crucified for a few hours, but usually people are crucified for two days before they die, not a few hours. Many people throughout history and today, have suffered a lot more than a few hours of crucifixion. People have suffered years of torture. So I don't get why this crucifixion story, even if true, is so special and unique. It only lasted a few hours. Yet there are many others who suffer torture for years, not just a few hours. Even the rebel leader Spartacus was crucified for a few days before he died. So why isn't his crucifixion special and holy too?

You should research what Ralph Ellis has to say about this. It's interesting. You can find his interviews on YouTube or his books on Amazon.com.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Winston » December 22nd, 2017, 1:00 am

Adama wrote:
December 20th, 2017, 10:03 pm
It's going to be a very sad surprise in the end for some.
I'm sorry but that doesn't prove anything. I could say it's going to be a surprise for you when you die, when you find out that everything I said is true too. Or that it will be a sad end for you when you die and find out that the true God was Allah and you denied him. Etc. These are just words and don't prove anything. They are purely emotional and ad hominem and a form of fear tactic, the kind Americans love to use to make others agree with their beliefs.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Adama » December 22nd, 2017, 3:04 am

Winston wrote:
December 22nd, 2017, 1:00 am
Adama wrote:
December 20th, 2017, 10:03 pm
It's going to be a very sad surprise in the end for some.
I'm sorry but that doesn't prove anything. I could say it's going to be a surprise for you when you die, when you find out that everything I said is true too. Or that it will be a sad end for you when you die and find out that the true God was Allah and you denied him. Etc. These are just words and don't prove anything. They are purely emotional and ad hominem and a form of fear tactic, the kind Americans love to use to make others agree with their beliefs.
It's not a fear tactic. After you believe and follow HIm, Christ will reveal Himself to you. Once the Holy Ghost is with you eventually you will know.

For example, after you believe, eventually He will make you stop some of the sins of the world. He has a rod and a staff. The rod is there to punish you when you stray from the narrow way, and you will know it is for your sin. The staff is there to prevent you from straying too far off the narrow path, and you will find that many of the things you wanted to do you're now powerless to do or they have no effect, or they don't work for you anymore. Or you're actually in fear to do them, knowing that there is punishment He can bring against you in various ways, from sorrows to illness in THIS LIFE.

Unbelievers are not shown this power. They abide in unbelief. It is not until they believe that they can see these things happening. Before then many people will just think certain things are happenstance and coincidence. That's because they are ignorant of His power and of His commandments.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Adama » December 22nd, 2017, 3:13 am

Winston wrote:
December 22nd, 2017, 12:57 am
MrPeabody wrote:
December 21st, 2017, 9:24 pm
It would be interested to find out what the current Muslim scholars believe. Mohammad believed that Jesus was a prophet but that he was never crucified. Where did Mohammad learn about Jesus? He traveled all over the Middle East as a trader, so he must have met some wise men in the know who told him about Jesus but couldn't say the truth to anyone because it was dangerous at that time.
That's a good question. You should search Muslim websites for explanations. Or google the question. The Muslims need to honor the Old Testament too because their Koran is based on it as well.

The Freemasons also believe that Jesus was not crucified I heard, or that he survived the crucifixion and then went to Britain to continue his revolt. That's what is taught to British Freemasons, according to some insiders.

Also some of the Christian Gnostics also believe that Jesus survived the crucifixion and then fled to India or the far east to live the rest of his days in peace and continue his spiritual teachings.

This may be plausible, because Jesus was only crucified for a few hours, but usually people are crucified for two days before they die, not a few hours. Many people throughout history and today, have suffered a lot more than a few hours of crucifixion. People have suffered years of torture. So I don't get why this crucifixion story, even if true, is so special and unique. It only lasted a few hours. Yet there are many others who suffer torture for years, not just a few hours. Even the rebel leader Spartacus was crucified for a few days before he died. So why isn't his crucifixion special and holy too?

You should research what Ralph Ellis has to say about this. It's interesting. You can find his interviews on YouTube or his books on Amazon.com.
1. Islam is a fraud which borrows from Christianity but then denies Christ divinity. Who would listen to any of them?

2. Freemasons are satanists. Why would anyone listen to them?

3. Gnosticism is satanism. Why would anyone listen to them?

4. You forget that Christ is the Messiah, the Son of God. His purpose is to die for all our sins, taking on our punishment which is death (wages of sin is death, and death eternal is hell), but also, He completed the commandments for us and overcame the law, making salvation by faith alone in Him. He is the law, He is the life. Only He can die for the sin of the world, because the penalty for sin is death eternal and that is hell. Believing in Him rescues the person from hell, because He completed the whole law (commandments) for all those who believe in Him. Therefore salvation is outside the commandments. It is a free gift to all and any who believe in Him alone for their salvation.

And because they have believed, they will live again: this time forever and without sin. Because by choosing to believe in Him in this life, the person has therefore chosen to live eternally within righteousness. There will not be any sin there, because it will be similar to before Adam brought death into the world. The next time death will not enter the world, because we chose eternal life in this life. It's similar to a remake, a second chance at perfect life, because Adam lost it for all of us, who are all Adam's children. And because no death and therefore no sin will be in the world, God the Father Himself and Christ both will be physically present with us on earth forever. We will be holy enough to abide in His presence then, because we will be without sin.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Adama » December 22nd, 2017, 3:30 am

The poor unbelievers don't realize. This earth only contains a small portion of God's glory, although it is full of it. That's because God is not with us physically. This is no longer a pure or clean place. Therefore God is not here in His fullness.

When He burns up this earth, He will make another one. This will be the new earth. It is the second chance, but this time it will not fall. No one will be overcome by a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Because everyone needs a free will choice to live or die. To do God's will or their own will. To follow God or be their own god. Those who chose to live within righteousness BY BELIEVING IN CHRIST (not through their own works because man is a fallen being incapable of pure good works before the eyes of God) will live again.

The believers are the ones who will live similar to how it was supposed to be, before Adam chose sin, which brought death into the world, They will live again on the New Earth. They chose eternal life and righteousness (no sin) in the first earth by believing in Christ. That was their free will choice they made by believing in Christ. Therefore their sins were covered, granting them eternal righteousness, meaning they are worthy to enter into the purity and perfection of life in God's fullness of glory.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Adama » December 22nd, 2017, 4:03 am

The half has not yet been told.
Last edited by Adama on January 25th, 2018, 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrMan » December 22nd, 2017, 4:15 am

Adama wrote:
December 22nd, 2017, 4:03 am
Could you imagine swimming in a lake of honey? Or diving into a river of milk? And it belongs to you personally. Look at Job. It tells you. There are going to rivers of milk, honey, and butter, just like there are rivers of water today. Sounds pretty exciting.
The Bible called the land of Canaan, later renamed Israel, a 'land flowing with milk and honey.' Apparently back then, the middle east was a much greener place than it is today, btw.

Is there no allowance for poetic language?


Zophar the Naamathite
Job 20
20 Then answered Zophar the Naamathite, and said,

...

4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,
5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?

...
16 He shall suck the poison of asps: the viper's tongue shall slay him.
17 He shall not see the rivers, the floods, the brooks of honey and butter.

Job's three miserable comforters who came to comfort him while he was sick after he has lost his children and his possessions, tried to convince him that bad things were happening to him because he was unrighteous. Zophar was not right about everything. The Lord made that clear at the end of the book.

Job 42
7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the Lord commanded them: the Lord also accepted Job.

I never heard of any other Christians who believe in rivers of butter floating around in the eschatological future based on this. Maybe, that would be convenient if there are potatoes in the millennial age. But Job doesn't really present a clear-cut case for it.

Most scholars who interpret the Bible, even conservative ones, make some allowance for poetic language when interpreting the Bible. In other books there are also visions, which aren't always completely literal.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Adama » December 22nd, 2017, 4:29 am

They read it, but to them it is fiction. Believe what you want. I don't care.
Last edited by Adama on January 25th, 2018, 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrMan » December 22nd, 2017, 4:36 am

Winston wrote:
December 22nd, 2017, 12:57 am
MrPeabody wrote:
December 21st, 2017, 9:24 pm
It would be interested to find out what the current Muslim scholars believe. Mohammad believed that Jesus was a prophet but that he was never crucified. Where did Mohammad learn about Jesus? He traveled all over the Middle East as a trader, so he must have met some wise men in the know who told him about Jesus but couldn't say the truth to anyone because it was dangerous at that time.
That's a good question. You should search Muslim websites for explanations. Or google the question. The Muslims need to honor the Old Testament too because their Koran is based on it as well.
I took a class on Islam and studied a bit of Arabic as an undergrad and I've learned a bit about Islam sense. I do not believe that Muhammad gave a clear comment on whether Jesus was crucified. There is an Arabic word (bi'atha as I recall) that can mean 'resurrected' but also has another meaning. I looked it up, other meaning is 'send forth.' So one surah in the Al Qur'an could be interpreted to say Jesus resurrected. But Muslims interpret it differently. Early Muslims had different views, but the mainstream view now is that Jesus did not die on the cross and also to deny His resurrection.

As for the Old Testament, there are verses in the Al Qur'an and/or hadith that back up the idea that the Torah, Psalms, and Gospel are from God. But Muhammad may not have actually read these books. The Al Qur'an or hadith say that he is illiterate (or not every literate, depending on how they interpret it.) His prophecies endorsed the Bible, basically. But later Muslims who read the Bible saw it wasn't the same. Muslims now say that the Bible is corrupted. But there is enough evidence of what the Old Testament was like in the time of Christ to see that it is the same book we have today. (Of course, we use translations, and there are some different textual variations, the normal stuff.)

Muslims had varying Al-Qur'ans, but one of the Califs burnt all but the official government-approved version early on.
The Freemasons also believe that Jesus was not crucified I heard, or that he survived the crucifixion and then went to Britain to continue his revolt. That's what is taught to British Freemasons, according to some insiders.
A late theory in the middle ages, no doubt influenced by nationalism.
Also some of the Christian Gnostics also believe that Jesus survived the crucifixion and then fled to India or the far east to live the rest of his days in peace and continue his spiritual teachings.
A late 20th century theory.
This may be plausible, because Jesus was only crucified for a few hours, but usually people are crucified for two days before they die, not a few hours.
They probably weren't beaten on and off for 12 hours by different groups of people until they were on the verge of death first, either.
Even the rebel leader Spartacus was crucified for a few days before he died. So why isn't his crucifixion special and holy too?
Sparticus didn't rise from the dead and do miracles.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrMan » December 22nd, 2017, 4:41 am

I'm looking at one of the Richard Carrier videos, and he doesn't have his facts straight regarding the epistles. Paul said that Jesus was the 'seed of David according to the flesh.' Peter wrote of having seen the sufferings of 'our Lord', referring to Christ.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Winston » December 22nd, 2017, 12:09 pm

MrMan wrote:
December 22nd, 2017, 4:41 am
I'm looking at one of the Richard Carrier videos, and he doesn't have his facts straight regarding the epistles. Paul said that Jesus was the 'seed of David according to the flesh.' Peter wrote of having seen the sufferings of 'our Lord', referring to Christ.
That's because Carrier is highly biased against Christianity, and when you have biases, you see what you want to see, not what's there. In that sense, it's dishonest for him to claim to be an unbiased scholar when it's obvious he has a bias. He should at least be honest and admit that he's biased and has an agenda.

William Lane Craig said during their debate that Carrier ought to "learn to read the lines first before trying to read between the lines". lol

But it goes both ways. Craig is biased toward Christianity whereas Carrier is biased against. Both sides are biased with an agenda. Neither are neutral objective truth seekers.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » December 23rd, 2017, 6:06 pm

Winston wrote:
December 22nd, 2017, 12:09 pm
MrMan wrote:
December 22nd, 2017, 4:41 am
I'm looking at one of the Richard Carrier videos, and he doesn't have his facts straight regarding the epistles. Paul said that Jesus was the 'seed of David according to the flesh.' Peter wrote of having seen the sufferings of 'our Lord', referring to Christ.
That's because Carrier is highly biased against Christianity, and when you have biases, you see what you want to see, not what's there. In that sense, it's dishonest for him to claim to be an unbiased scholar when it's obvious he has a bias. He should at least be honest and admit that he's biased and has an agenda.

William Lane Craig said during their debate that Carrier ought to "learn to read the lines first before trying to read between the lines". lol

But it goes both ways. Craig is biased toward Christianity whereas Carrier is biased against. Both sides are biased with an agenda. Neither are neutral objective truth seekers.
If you want someone more neutral, look at the videos of Bishop John Spong. I mentioned him before. He is an ordained minister and scholar who is committed to Christianity but his research found that it is all metaphor and can't be taken literally. He believes Jesus existed but that he only said about 18 percent of what is attributed to him in the Bible.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Adama » December 23rd, 2017, 7:04 pm

MrPeabody wrote:
December 23rd, 2017, 6:06 pm
Winston wrote:
December 22nd, 2017, 12:09 pm
MrMan wrote:
December 22nd, 2017, 4:41 am
I'm looking at one of the Richard Carrier videos, and he doesn't have his facts straight regarding the epistles. Paul said that Jesus was the 'seed of David according to the flesh.' Peter wrote of having seen the sufferings of 'our Lord', referring to Christ.
That's because Carrier is highly biased against Christianity, and when you have biases, you see what you want to see, not what's there. In that sense, it's dishonest for him to claim to be an unbiased researcher when it's obvious he has a bias. He should at least be honest and admit that he's biased and has an agenda.

William Lane Craig said during their debate that Carrier ought to "learn to read the lines first before trying to read between the lines". lol

But it goes both ways. Craig is biased toward Christianity whereas Carrier is biased against. Both sides are biased with an agenda. Neither are neutral objective truth seekers.
If you want someone more neutral, look at the videos of Bishop John Spong. I mentioned him before. He is an ordained minister and scholar who is committed to Christianity but his research found that it is all metaphor and can't be taken literally. He believes Jesus existed but that he only said about 18 percent of what is attributed to him in the Bible.
False teachers ought to beware. They are at risk of swift destruction by preaching lies about the nature of salvation and the divinity of Christ.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » December 24th, 2017, 8:43 pm

Here is a bishop John Spong video. He believes Jesus existed.


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