Join John Adams, world renowned Intl Matchmaker, Monday nights 8:30 EST for Live Webcasts!
And check out Five Reasons why you should attend a FREE AFA Seminar! See locations and dates here.



View Active Topics       View Your Posts       Latest 100 Topics       FAQ Topics       Mobile Friendly Theme


Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

Moderators: fschmidt, jamesbond

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27614
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Winston » December 4th, 2017, 12:54 am

This book makes sense and is along the lines of what I believe. By one of the best religious and mythological scholars.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003UYUYOA/

Who is this King of Glory? A Critical Study of the Christos-Messiah Tradition
By Alvin Kuhn

Review

This is a great book for anyone interested in Gnosticism and Astrotheology. If there is to be the question as to why Christianity is failing in providing individuals with the capability to find the divine within themselves versus the appraisal of an outward figure, this book provides all the answers. Christ was not a man, Christ was in man. Christ did not come but once, but Christ is forever to come. If only Christians would reclaim their faith based on these priniciples.

Description

This book reveals that much of Christianity and its beliefs had originated in ancient Egypt rather than the Middle East. The author presents us with how, where and why many spiritual Egyptian beliefs were adopted into Christian form and accepted as "history", as opposed to being carried over in their original mythological form. Kuhn states, "The gospels are not and never were histories. They are now proven to have been cryptic dramas of the spiritual evolution of humanity and of the history of the human soul in its earthly tabernacle of flesh." For Christianity to be expressed in the way it was first intended, as experienced during the first two centuries of its existence, one must first acknowledge its pagan roots. This is too much of a leap for most people, but they have not read this book. The author reveals how things were altered in the third century by the existing priesthood and why.
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27614
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Winston » December 4th, 2017, 12:59 am

This is what fundamentalists like Adama dont understand or grasp. Its above their spiritual level. They arent evolved enough to get it yet.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B073JFMQB9/

The Lost Light: An Interpretation of Ancient Scriptures
By Alvin Kuhn

Review

Best insight into the esoteric meaning of the scriptures I've ever read.

By Scott on December 2, 2013

Verified Purchase

Given the time period this was written, Lost Light is an excellent book. The summary of Kuhn's work in this book is that the Bible and all its stories - from beginning to end - describe the death of the soul, or incarnation into the physical world. When death is described or referred to in the Bible, it is speaking of the death of the soul (incarnation into the physical body) and not our normal use of "death" as that of the physical body itself. This throws a new light on the scriptures and is a welcomed insight. Really...I don't think I will ever read Paul or John's Revelation quite the same way again!

Like Kuhn's other works, this one makes the argument that ancient Egypt had the original esoteric wisdom that other later religious traditions (including Christianity) copied but described using different stories. Although Kuhn's knowledge is obviously extensive in this area, his presentation of parallel concepts between Egyptian and Christian symbolism suffers from lots of detail. He assumes that the reader has a grasp of some fundamentals of ancient Egyptian gods, goddesses, and their stories. Because of that, a reader can get a little lost in understanding what he is trying to point out at times. It would help the reader if he/she has some basic understanding of ancient Egyptian gods/goddesses and their stories. However, one can still glean a lot out of these areas if you have the patience to work through it and do some homework. It is worth it!

Kuhn's use of language is incredible. I don't think I've read another author who is quite as prolific in language style than him. It even borders on being poetic at times. That said though, be prepared to look up many words. This is not a quick read. Personally, I like his sophisticated style. However, one reviewer commented how he gets into long introductions and goes into meanderings at times. This is true. I too got annoyed sometimes and wanted him to get on with his main point, but that didn't deter me from the great gems of intelligence that await in other areas.

This work takes a decidedly positive view on Plato. The Timaeus is quoted often and other philosophers such as Plotinus, Thomas Taylor, and Edward Carpenter are used as helpful commentary. It also makes many references to Hermetic texts. The Egyptian Book of the Dead is quoted often too. I have never read it but want to now that I've read this text.

This is an esoteric work; meaning, it will give the reader an inner or symbolic reading of the scriptures rather than a literal one. If you tend to view scriptural stories, events, and characters as symbolic and not historical, then you're in for a treat. But if you take your Bible as completely literal, then this book will more than challenge that view. Kuhn is no friend of orthodox Christianity and will take issue with a literal view of reading the scriptures at every turn. His view of Bible events and characters are decidedly mythological; much along the lines of Joseph Campbell, John G. Jackson, and Acharya S. That said though, he will vehemently argue for the inner esoteric truth and wisdom of what those Biblical stories teach. If you can't literally believe in the Bible's stories but know there is inner meaning in them, then you'll love Kuhn!

My favorite items of insight were how Kuhn makes the sayings of Paul come alive with new inner meaning. Also, his discussions on baptism, the Ark of the Covenant, and the Ark in the story of Noah, among many others, are also excellent. I particularly enjoyed his discussions on reincarnation, which are seldom discussed and frowned upon in the Christian community. What you read about is not your normal Christianity: I think it is a LOT better.

It is hard to find writers that provide esoteric views of Bible stories in as much detail as Kuhn. However, if you are looking for other writers besides him, I would highly recommend Inner Christianity by Richard Smoley. This is also a top-notch work but Smoley will have a slightly different twist than Kuhn. Tom Harpur's books, The Pagan Christ and Water Into Wine, will also provides more modern insights that parallel Kuhn's ideas. Harpur readily admits he got most of his material from Kuhn; however, I still think Kuhn does that best job.

Finally, I would recommend that you read everything that you can get your hands on by Kuhn. He will provide you with a wealth of ideas. Even if you don't agree with them all, it will show alternative roads that you didn't know were there.
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27614
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Winston » December 4th, 2017, 1:15 am

What Is The TRUTH About The Messiah?

Here's the order of subtopics we will be covering:

Intro/Preface
1. Hebrew Names And Their Significance
2. The Letter “J”
3. The Etymology Of “Jesus”
4. The TRUE Identity Of The REAL Messiah
5. How The REAL Messiah REALLY Died
6. The Origins Of The Cross
7. Christian History: The Origins Of The Church
8. The Etymology Of “Christ”
9. Christ/Krishna Similarities
10. Christmas/December 25th
11. The Concept Of The Trinity
12. The Concept Of Mother And Child
13. The Concept Of Pagan Sun Worship: Idolatry
14. Project Blue Beam And One World Religion
15. The TRUE Meanings Of “Jesus” And “Yeshua” (Greek/Latin)
16. The Abomination Of Desolation
17. The Strong Delusion
18. The Hebrew Names Polluted No More!
19. THE TRUTH!
20. The Passover Lamb
Conclusion

Where Does "Jesus Christ" REALLY Originate From?!?!

THE TRUTH REVEALED!!!

BE DECEIVED NO MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW IT IS HIGH TIME TO AWAKEN OUT OF SLEEP: FOR NOW IS OUR SALVATION NEARER THAN WHEN WE BELIEVED!!! (ROMANS 13:11!)

Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

MrPeabody
Experienced Poster
Posts: 1458
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 7:53 pm

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » December 5th, 2017, 6:57 am

This is a good example of the evil morons with dark hearts who are attracted to fundamentalist Christianity.

Repent Amarillo executes Santa


MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2638
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrMan » December 5th, 2017, 10:09 am

Winston wrote:
December 4th, 2017, 1:15 am
Intro/Preface
1. Hebrew Names And Their Significance
2. The Letter “J”
3. The Etymology Of “Jesus”
'J' as a letter evolved kind of late as I recall. The letter 'I' used to be used in English, including in the 1611 KJV translation. At some point in history, initial 'I's in English took the 'J' sound, and this was later captured in the writing system.

The name 'Jesus' comes from Ιησούς in Greek, Iesous. Some languages say 'Yesus'. Ιησούς is how Yeshua and Yehoshua were transliterated into Greek. The final S ending is how masculine names were written in Greek, except this uses a different letter 's' which appears to represent the shape of the final Hebrew letter.
4. The TRUE Identity Of The REAL Messiah
Jesus. In Hebrew, it is Yeshua. Back before the Bible Code book, which departs from the proper methodology, was published, code researchers discovered that if you take every 40th letter (40 is a significant number in the Bible) throughout Isaiah 53, a Psalm about the crucifixion of the Messiah, that it says 'Yeshua is His name' if I remember correctly in Hebrew. The quote is much longer than that, and one Jewish man said it read like a Psalm.
5. How The REAL Messiah REALLY Died
Crucified, but raised gain.
6. The Origins Of The Cross
IMO, it is likely that Jesus was crucified on an X shaped cross, like the shape of the letter Chi in the early Christian Chi-Rho symbol.
8. The Etymology Of “Christ”
Greek for 'anointed one.
9. Christ/Krishna Similarities
I'm sure you can find some superficial similarities between lots of religions and concepts.
10. Christmas/December 25th
It was first proposed before Christianity allowed for syncretism. Two proposed dates were December 25th and January 6th. Both are 9 months to the day from two debated days for Easter. The theory may have been that Jesus was conceived the exact day of the year He rose from the dead. I don't know what the evidence for this was, but it seems in line with the type of Jewish theological reasoning they may have used. January 6 ended up becoming a day to celebrate the wise men after it was dropped as a date for Christmas.
11. The Concept Of The Trinity
God, the Spirit of God, and the Word of God are all mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis as being involved in creation.
12. The Concept Of Mother And Child
I have seen lots of babies sitting on their mother's laps. I don't see that as particularly pagan. Worshipping Mary, praying to her and other saints-- that may have come in from paganism.
15. The TRUE Meanings Of “Jesus” And “Yeshua” (Greek/Latin)
'Yeshua'-- He saves.

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27614
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Winston » December 8th, 2017, 2:28 pm

Im reading this book now called "The Pagan Christ" by Thomas Harpur. It argues that Jesus didnt exist historically. However that doesnt matter because such myths represent an eternal timeless truth of the christ within us, that is far bigger than any historic event because its an eternal truth. This is what joseph campbell taught too it seems. So mythology isnt just fictional. It represents a deep timeless truth thats far more significant than any real historic event. Including the jesus myth, which represents the christ principle within us. Within the soul of man.

What do you think? Does this make sense?

I also remember Plato or Socrates saying in the republic, that myths and stories of great heros are necessary in society even if they are fiction, because they give men an ideal to strive for. They bring out the hero within men and the virtue in their hearts. So men need such myths, even if they arent true stories. Doesnt that make sense?

Heres an interview with Tom Harpur, the author of Pagan Christ that im reading. Its only 20 min. He makes some good points in it.

https://youtu.be/NJ5rnkrSzsQ

Also heres a CBC documentary about Jesus that features Tom Harpur, author of The Pagan Christ, explaining why the myth of Jesus is very spiritual and significant, even if the man jesus never actually existed, because there is a christ principle within us thats far greater and deeper than any historic event. And myths are truer than history, especially since history tends to be propaganda, but myths are timeless.

https://youtu.be/FYsYD52OAok

It makes sense. And it may explain why people need God to be perfect and all good and all righteous, even though theres no logical reason to assume that. Its psychological, not logical. The reason is that Christians and theists need an ideal standard of a perfect deity and God to strive up toward. Without it they would degenerate and become immoral. So the ideal of a perfect deity or God is important and serves a deep psychological need.

Same reason why men need to believe in mythical heros of virtue and perfection, even if they never existed literally on earth. They need to strive for such a standard or else they will degenerate and become amoral. Perhaps this perfect hero motif only exists within us, not without us, and we need to strive to bring it out. Thats what its all about then - our inner battle and issues.
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27614
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Winston » December 8th, 2017, 5:35 pm

Btw did you all know that there was a Jewish historian named Philo of Alexandria who documented the history of Judea from 20 CE to 60 CE. Yet he never mentions one word about Jesus. Not one word. Why? Isnt that very odd? And isnt that very incriminating against a historical Jesus?
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

MrPeabody
Experienced Poster
Posts: 1458
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 7:53 pm

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » December 9th, 2017, 2:37 am

Robert Price is a former Baptist minister who is skeptical that Jesus existed.



User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27614
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Winston » December 12th, 2017, 12:37 am

It turns out that Nazareth existed after all. It was founded in 2200 BC. See below.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth

But this doesn't prove that Jesus existed of course. Why do some atheists claim Nazareth never existed? If it didnt then why would the gospel writers make up a fictitious town and discredit their own story if they wanted to promote a new religion?
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2638
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrMan » December 12th, 2017, 2:47 am

Winston wrote:
December 8th, 2017, 5:35 pm
Btw did you all know that there was a Jewish historian named Philo of Alexandria who documented the history of Judea from 20 CE to 60 CE. Yet he never mentions one word about Jesus. Not one word. Why? Isnt that very odd? And isnt that very incriminating against a historical Jesus?
Have you read Josephus?
What about the Testimonium, found in all the manuscripts of Josephus?
“About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man [if indeed one ought to call him a man.] For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. [He was the Christ.] When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. [On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him.] And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”
I took that from <https://carm.org/regarding-quotes-histo ... bout-jesus>. The article deals with claims of critics who say the quote is too pro-Jesus for Josephus to have written it, and claim it must be an insertion, even though the manuscripts of Josephus contain it. You can read the link.

I remember you saying you read a Josh McDowell book, and one of his books covers this topic.

MrPeabody
Experienced Poster
Posts: 1458
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 7:53 pm

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » December 12th, 2017, 3:12 am

This is really a good documentary. He shows proof that early Christians as late as the 3rd century AD were worshiping using Egyptian symbols and statues of Osiris.


MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2638
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrMan » December 12th, 2017, 5:29 am

MrPeabody, a minute marker would be nice.

I think it's pretty well known that some groups have engaged in synchretism between Christianity and other belief systems.

I suspect crosses were shaped like an X, like in the chi rho symbol.

MrPeabody
Experienced Poster
Posts: 1458
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 7:53 pm

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » December 12th, 2017, 7:11 am

MrMan wrote:
December 12th, 2017, 5:29 am
MrPeabody, a minute marker would be nice.

I think it's pretty well known that some groups have engaged in synchretism between Christianity and other belief systems.

I suspect crosses were shaped like an X, like in the chi rho symbol.
Starting at about 29 he walks down into a Christian sanctuary which has carvings showing Osiris imagery.

MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2638
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by MrMan » December 12th, 2017, 1:13 pm

Why would the Talmud mention Jesus, even if in a negative light, if Jesus were not real? Why wouldn't they just say he never existed?

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27614
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Post by Winston » December 13th, 2017, 2:12 am

Dr. Richard Carrier, an atheist, historian and academic snob who thinks only academics should comment on historical facts, gives some lectures below on why he thinks Jesus didn't exist. He used to believe in the historicity of Jesus but after studying the subject deeper, he changed his mind and became a mythicist, which is one who believes that Jesus was a myth and literary creation rather than a historical person. Carrier considers himself the only credible expert on this subject and even gets into debate with other mythicists. lol. Gee he's so humble.

He's interesting though and worth listening to since he has a lot of knowledge. He also uses something called Bayes Theorem which he claims uses mathematics to calculate the probability about whether someone existed or not. In his books, he says this theorem gives Jesus only a 1/3 probability of existence. He also explains in his lectures why the passage in Josephus and Tacitus about Jesus are not credible evidence.

Dr. Richard Carrier explains why he changed his mind about Jesus' historicity.



Dr. Richard Carrier explains why the gospels are myths.



Dr. Richard Carrier explains why Jesus was invented.

Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Religion and Spirituality”