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Did Jesus Christ Exist? The issue of his historicity.

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Winston
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Winston » November 14th, 2017, 11:42 am

MrMan wrote:The New Testament contains historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. There are books written by eye witnesses of Jesus' resurrection, Matthew, John, Peter. Mark may have been an eye witness. That's a theory, though. He spent a great deal of time with Peter and worked with him and heard his preaching.

Btw, I've read that fragments believed to be from the gospel of Mark were discovered that were dated to the first century.

There was also Paul, who was a witness of the resurrection, in a supernatural experience after the ascension.
Not exactly. The gospel writers are anonymous. Not historians. And even if they were honest accounts, they said different things. For example, matthew, mark, luke say that you can be saved by doing good works and loving God and each other. But the gospel of john says you have to believe in the atonement of Jesus to be saved. So the message evolved from a simple one to a more elaborate one.

Also as mentioned above, the oldest Bible found shows that the earliest gospels did not contain any resurrection or miracles or virgin birth. So those must have been added later. See the video and link above. You can read the 1600 year old Bible for yourself. 800 pages of it are available online.

This means the gospel message evolved and changed over time. It was not set in stone from the get go like adama and the fundies and evangelists think.

Also about 17 books of the Bible are missing. We know this because those books are referenced in the bible but nowhere found. So they must have been lost or removed at some point. This debunks the fundies claim that the Bible must be perfect because God would keep his word perfect and error free and prevent any tampering with it, which is circular reasoning of course. After all, if that were true then why would 17 books be missing from it? So the doctrine of biblical infallibility falls flat on its face, and never made any sense anyway.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by MrMan » November 14th, 2017, 12:13 pm

Winston,
I haven't followed the whole thread, but you wrote,
Also as mentioned above, the oldest Bible found shows that the earliest gospels did not contain any resurrection or miracles or virgin birth. So those must have been added later. See the video and link above. You can read the 1600 year old Bible for yourself. 800 pages of it are available online.
Where do you get that? I have heard of the (unsubstantiated) theory put forth by 'liberal' scholars that the miracles were added to existing Gospels later.

I saw a video clip about Craig Keener's recent book 'Miracles' which documents historical and modern miracles. He started it as a footnote to address the assertion that miracles must have been added later by pointing out that people throughout various ages refer to miracles in their own day and time. That grew to a 1200 page book.

The 'scholars' who say 'this was added later' are usually just stating their opinions, which we are supposed to believe based on the idea that they are 'scholars', even if they disagree with what other scholars say and with the historical positions on these issues.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » November 14th, 2017, 3:29 pm

Winston wrote:Adama,
Did you consider that those teachings about fire and brimstone are just fear mongering and brainwashing used to control the masses? A thinker and truth seeker should consider that possibility.
The Swedish theologian Swedenborg wrote a book on heaven and hell that he said he got from a revelation from god.

"Swedenborg wrote about Heaven and Hell based on what he said was revelation from God.[9] According to Swedenborg, God is love itself[10] and intends everyone to go to heaven. That was His purpose for creation.[11] Thus, God is never angry, Swedenborg says, and does not cast anyone into Hell. The appearance of Him being angry at evil-doers was permitted due to the primitive level of understanding of people in Biblical times. Specifically, holy fear was needed to keep the people of those times from sinking irretrievably into the consequences of their evils. The holy fear idea was in keeping with the fundamental truth that even they could understand, that everything comes from Jehovah.[12] In the internal, spiritual sense of the Word, however, revealed in Swedenborg’s works, God can be clearly seen for the loving Person He actually is.[13]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_an ... wedenborg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg

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Adama
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Adama » November 14th, 2017, 3:44 pm

Naturally the authors of the four gospels are known. It's actually quite obvious. Their names are: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These are the authors. People want to make it mysterious, but the gospels are called by their name for a reason. This is just some made up nonsense from people who don't want to believe.

Also, the book of John was specifically written to get people saved.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It even says that in there. So the gospel of John has two purposes: that is to tell us about the life and death of Christ but also to tell people that they need to believe to be saved. That's why there are dozens of verses in there that say in every place believe and be saved, or believe and you have eternal, or believe and you have everlasting life, or believe and you shall never die, or believe and ye shall not perish.

The other three gospels tell the story of the birth, life and death from different perspectives. They aren't copy cats. They are four storytellers telling us the story from different perspectives. Although they only seem to contain a couple of salvation verses each, those verses are consistent with John. Just they aren't in every place like in John.

As for missing books, all the knowledge is preserved. The vital "missing" information is there, it is just contained and distributed throughout the other books. For example, I got to read about the error of king Hezakiah in the books of the Kings, the Chronicles and in Isaiah. The story is told three times at least that I found, and worded differently with the same meaning. So there is nothing missing.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Adama » November 14th, 2017, 3:51 pm

God is love but He hates sin. The penalty for sin is death, and death of the soul is everlasting punishment in Sheol. So if a person commits their way to unrighteousness or sin at the expense of getting saved, then that's what they must receive as just compensation. In order to escape hell, all a person must do is believe in His Son. Then their sins are covered. But they still must hold themselves from sin, because the penalty for sin is death, and they risk disease and premature death. The way is truly narrow. Sin is really quite dangerous when it comes down to it.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Adama » November 14th, 2017, 3:57 pm

Winston wrote:
MrMan wrote:The New Testament contains historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. There are books written by eye witnesses of Jesus' resurrection, Matthew, John, Peter. Mark may have been an eye witness. That's a theory, though. He spent a great deal of time with Peter and worked with him and heard his preaching.

Btw, I've read that fragments believed to be from the gospel of Mark were discovered that were dated to the first century.

There was also Paul, who was a witness of the resurrection, in a supernatural experience after the ascension.
Not exactly. The gospel writers are anonymous. Not historians. And even if they were honest accounts, they said different things. For example, matthew, mark, luke say that you can be saved by doing good works and loving God and each other. But the gospel of john says you have to believe in the atonement of Jesus to be saved. So the message evolved from a simple one to a more elaborate one.
.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luke also wrote the book of Acts:

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 16:30-31 KJV
[30] And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and
thy house.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Adama » November 14th, 2017, 4:12 pm

Winston wrote:Adama,
Did you consider that those teachings about fire and brimstone are just fear mongering and brainwashing used to control the masses? A thinker and truth seeker should consider that possibility.
When I was an unbeliever I gave no thought to it, but after becoming a believer and having read some of the Bible, it is quite clear. It's just some people have their eyes closed and their heart is hardened.

Magma is beneath our feet, below the earth's crust. Magma is liquid fire and sulfur. There is no question that hell is real.
Winston wrote:Adama,
Did you ever consider that the Bible is metaphorical and not literal? Like the parables of Jesus?
No, that has never crossed my mind in any way. A parable is a story that tells a truth by illustration. You know when something is a parable. So you're basically saying that all of the Bible is just a great big metaphor and parable, not to be taken literally.

I tell you one thing, Winston, if we are not supposed to take God's Word seriously, then what is it in life which we should take seriously? A man is supposed to live by every word that comes out of the mouth of God.
Winston wrote:Adama,
Esoteric schools teach that Jesus taught two gospels. A simple one for the masses using parables. And a higher level of teachings to his inner circle of disciples, which was closer to gnosticism. So he had an inner and outer teaching and doctrine. The outer teaching was the exoteric and the inner teaching was the esoteric.
For some reason you are taking your Bible "history" from Satanic sources, which is outright perplexing. Gnosticism, as I posted a few posts above, is SATANIC. It is an inversion of the gospel of Christ.

Also, Christ has explicitly stated that He has taught nothing in secret. That's what esoteric means right? Occult and hidden? It is only not yet revealed to the unbelievers. But things are open for believers. Why? Because believers have the Holy Ghost, who is the interpreter of truth. Unbelievers can't understand because they do not have the Holy Ghost with them.
Winston wrote:Adama,
When St. Paul popularized Christianity, he preached the exoteric version, the one for the masses. And then the roman government nationalized it as the new state religion 300 years later. Thats what we have today.
Apostle Paul. All believers are saints unless you are Catholic or similar to them. For Catholics only certain special people are saints, but in real Christianity all believers are saints, meaning they are sanctified by God.

I have been saying this for years, Winston. The Roman Empire and the Catholic church are NOT CHRISTIAN. It is filled with pomp, pageantry, idolatry by having statues, praying to Mary instead of God, praising Mary as the Mother of God as if she is above Christ, praising Mary as the mediator between God and men. I could go on, but you know, it is false Christianity and a false gospel and really it is just the worship of the Pope, the Queen of heaven (Mary), and the idolatry of statues and the worship of the dead. Even the Pope himself doesn't believe in God and says having a relationship with Christ in dangerous. Well when a person gets saved, Christ becomes their adopted brother, and God becomes their Father. That tells you all you need to know about this Catholic "Christianity."

I don't even understand the point you're trying to make. Paul did what? He preached to the Romans and got many saved.
Winston wrote:Adama,
There are Bible verses that indicates this, that Jesus had a different teaching for his inner circle of initiates.

Matthew 13:10-13

"10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 [d]Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."
Because those were unbelievers. They can't understand. A person must believe and then he will understand, not before.
Winston wrote:Adama,
So you see, Jesus is telling his disciples that he had to use parables to teach the masses since they cannot understand his higher esoteric teachings, which he called "mysteries". Obviously he must be talking about more than a simple gospel message about "believe and be saved" since a simple message is not a mystery.
Christ has specifically said that He doesn't teach anything in secret. So that is out right there. And it is in the Bible for goodness sake. How hidden is it if YOU can read it? It's not like it's locked away and you have to join a cult to get it. Just open it and read it. It's not hidden from YOU. It's that you need to be saved to understand it. But it is available to anyone who believes.
Winston wrote:Adama,
And this outer teaching, the exoteric one, is the one that adama has adopted but taken too literally to the extreme, hence become a fundamentalist.
A fundamentalist? There is no other way to be. What? Are you saying that we should forsake the law of God? Should we also forget how to pronounce consonants and vowels? because if you are trying to strip away the basics and the foundation, then what is the rest going to be laid upon?

haha, I'm an extremist. You act like I've done something horrible.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by MrMan » November 15th, 2017, 1:12 pm

MrPeabody wrote:
"Swedenborg wrote about Heaven and Hell based on what he said was revelation from God.[9] According to Swedenborg, God is love itself[10] and intends everyone to go to heaven. That was His purpose for creation.[11] Thus, God is never angry, Swedenborg says, and does not cast anyone into Hell. The appearance of Him being angry at evil-doers was permitted due to the primitive level of understanding of people in Biblical times. Specifically, holy fear was needed to keep the people of those times from sinking irretrievably into the consequences of their evils. The holy fear idea was in keeping with the fundamental truth that even they could understand, that everything comes from Jehovah.[12] In the internal, spiritual sense of the Word, however, revealed in Swedenborg’s works, God can be clearly seen for the loving Person He actually is.[13]"
I do not know this man, but if what you say is accurate, it sound like this man's alleged revelation was different from the revelation given by God's own Son.

Some modern people subscribe to the fallacy that the later you are born in time, the more sophisticated you are, and that ancients were 'primitive.'

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by MrMan » November 15th, 2017, 1:12 pm

MrPeabody wrote:
"Swedenborg wrote about Heaven and Hell based on what he said was revelation from God.[9] According to Swedenborg, God is love itself[10] and intends everyone to go to heaven. That was His purpose for creation.[11] Thus, God is never angry, Swedenborg says, and does not cast anyone into Hell. The appearance of Him being angry at evil-doers was permitted due to the primitive level of understanding of people in Biblical times. Specifically, holy fear was needed to keep the people of those times from sinking irretrievably into the consequences of their evils. The holy fear idea was in keeping with the fundamental truth that even they could understand, that everything comes from Jehovah.[12] In the internal, spiritual sense of the Word, however, revealed in Swedenborg’s works, God can be clearly seen for the loving Person He actually is.[13]"
I do not know this man, but if what you say is accurate, it sound like this man's alleged revelation was different from the revelation given by God's own Son.

Some modern people subscribe to the fallacy that the later you are born in time, the more sophisticated you are, and that ancients were 'primitive.'

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » November 20th, 2017, 5:09 am

This is a Hindu that has some interesting insights on Christianity.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEte4t7AwXM[/youtube]

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by MrPeabody » November 23rd, 2017, 9:11 am

This is a great video on the history of Zoroastrianism. The video shows how Zoroastrianism influenced the writing of the Old Testament.


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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » November 23rd, 2017, 12:28 pm

The extent people have chosen to live lives based on religious fairy tales is sad and pathetic at the same time. Whether Christian, Muslim, or some other arbitrary set of manipulative myths, people are STILL willing to suspend their rational thought and good sense over this stuff.

A mind is a terrible thing to brainwash, especially when it is the mind of a child, an intellectually deficient person (i.e. women), or a person in emotional distress. These are 3 groups that religious faiths prey upon to keep their charades going on in perpetuity.

Damn them all and damn you too if you are part of the problem.

:x

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Winston » December 3rd, 2017, 9:24 pm

Interesting documentary about whether Jesus existed or not, whether there was a cover up or not, and whether Pagan religions influenced Christianity or not. Presents experts from both sides.

Documentary: The Pagan Christ

There are 2.1 billion Christians on the planet – roughly one third of the entire human population. At the heart of their religion is the New Testament and the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. To Christianity, the written word is the glue that binds the faith of its followers.

So, what if it could be proven that Jesus never existed? What if there was evidence that every word of the New Testament – the cornerstone of Christianity – is based on myth and metaphor?

Based on Tom Harpur’s national bestseller, The Pagan Christ examines these very questions. During his research, Harpur discovered that the New Testament is wholly based on Egyptian mythology, that Jesus Christ never lived, and that – indeed – the text was always meant to be read allegorically. It was the founders of the Church who duped the world into taking a literal approach to the scriptures. And, according to Harpur, this was their fatal error – and the very reason Christianity is struggling today.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Winston » December 3rd, 2017, 10:20 pm

Tom Harpur, ex-Anglican minister and author of "The Pagan Christ", discusses his discovery of the pagan origins of Christianity.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Post by Adama » December 3rd, 2017, 10:30 pm

We know Christ exists. He is the Creator.

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