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Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Postby OutWest » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:31 pm

AmericanEvil wrote:LOL! I will cut out the Heil Lucifer bit then while I am in the Islamic world.

Now, Jesus never existed. The Christian religion is a barbarian, false bogus religion. Jesus never existed, so the whole religion is a fraud to begin with.

Anyone of you idiots who still believes in such a FICTIONAL CHARACTER like Jesus should just go and drop dead. Such ignorant fools are serving absolutely no real purpose or value being alive.



That puts you on the spot if you want to convert to Islam- Muslims very much believe in the existence of Christ- that he was a great prophet, and in fact they believe that Christians are "people of the book" in common with Muslims.
So I guess Islam will not be your cup of tea....


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Postby AmericanEvil » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:34 pm

Traditional Vedic dharma is the ideal ideology. It's philosophy is almost perfect.

Unfortunately, manginas and feminists have destroyed the religion. Hence, why India is going to be absolutely destroyed in the coming world war. Indians are infidels who have rejected their own religion and culture. They are lower than a dog.
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Postby Winston » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:47 am

Check out this hot Atheist girl on YouTube named Jaclyn Glenn vehemently arguing that Jesus is a lie borrowed from pagan myths. She is hot but her voice gets annoying after a while.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2kO7MRWyEY[/youtube]
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Postby bladed11 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:11 am

Actually if you read the bible and take it as prophetic it clearly states Jesus is coming to cleanse the face of the Earth of both satanists and many "lukewarm christians" alike. Read it again and learn devil boy.
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Postby Winston » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:46 pm

ladislav wrote:There are other sites saying the same thing about other famous religious figures.

Most religions and the events and characters in them are symbolisms. The main problem with a lot of religious believers is that they take literally what should be taken symbolically.

The religious heroes such as Jesus and the Buddha, are either totally not real or are mostly legends based on some real events which were very different but got exaggerated and distorted later because there were no good ways of recording events then. Mostly, such holy people just represent ideals and philosophies of life. When people believe in Jesus, it is basically believing in forgiveness, eternal life, the fact that faith can in fact perform miracles, and following the principles he represented. To draw a parallel with the East, his character represents being an Indian boddhisattva ( a person who sacrifices himself for others) and teaches people to be selfless and kind to others. It also teaches that life is eternal and that with faith one can expiate one's sins/bad karma earlier and one will not have to go through the agony of having to pay for every little thing one had done in the past. So, Jesus is basically a symbolic representation of a proper way of life.

There are also people who say that King David and King Solomon were just some small village chiefs but because there was no way to record things accurately in those times, the info became distorted and exaggerated.


This is a great point that makes sense. I would agree along the same lines. There are also too many parallel events and numbers between Jesus and Buddha, that you have to wonder if both their stories come from similar sources.

However, I think it's too much of a stretch to claim that they never existed. It is way too implausible that someone who never existed and was simply "made up" could spawn a religion that endured three centuries of Roman persecution, became the official mandated religion in all of Europe during the Middle Ages, and is now the world's most popular religion. Something made up, fabricated or hoaxed, could not have accomplished all that. Deep down, people can feel the difference between truth and falsehoods. This is why hoaxes don't tend to go very far. So I think this theory is far too much of a stretch and highly implausible.

Plus, claiming that someone never existed is an extreme claim, and unprovable as well. One cannot prove a negative. It is more probable that a historical Jesus existed, but that his message was subverted down the line by those wishing to use it for political control, such as Emperor Constantine, who most likely created the orthodox version of Christianity by combining Jesus' teachings with pagan rituals and Roman hierarchical structures into what became the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, the version of Jesus given by the church today is likely not the same as the historical Jesus. Most neutral objective historians hold this view as well.
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Postby ChampionKaji » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:47 pm

No.
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Postby Winston » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:23 am

Bart Ehrman, a distinguished Bible scholar, historian and former Christian, made a great point in his book "Did Jesus Exist?" about why a historical Jesus existed.

He said that no one at the time was expecting a messiah that would be crucified. A crucified messiah was never part of Jewish beliefs prior to Christianity. So if someone were to make up a messiah, he would make up a great warrior or king figure that won many battles and freed many slaves, like King David or Moses. They would not make up a messiah that was executed by the Romans in the most humiliating way. That would mean that the messiah was defeated and failed. It would be a downer and would not inspire people.

So most likely there was a historical Jesus who was crucified, which left his followers confused and disillusioned. So they began looking for a way to justify a crucified messiah. They reinvented the whole theology of the Old Testament, and claimed that it was God's plan all along to have the messiah crucified to wash away our sins. In doing so, they embellished stories about Jesus, including his alleged resurrection.

This is in fact, the view that most historians hold about the historical Jesus. You can listen to Bart Ehrman's interviews about this here:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bart+erhman

Furthermore, Dr. Ehrman says that the Romans did not commonly worship dying and rising pagan saviors. He says that is a myth that Atheists created that is not backed up by historical evidence. I don't know about this and have not looked into it. But if he's right, then I wonder where Archarya S got her sources.

I think that Dr. Ehrman is probably right. Plus, a hoax can only go so far. People can feel the difference between truth and falsehood at a deeper level. For example, women usually know when their partner is cheating on them, even when they have no evidence. They can sense it at an instinctual and intuitive level. Likewise, people can feel out a hoax eventually, even if they fall for it at first. It loses its power over them over time.

Also, a hoax does not result in millions of lives being transformed, and early Christians enduring three centuries of Roman persecution. Nor can a hoax become the world's biggest religion. A hoax does not have the power to transform lives, answer prayers (in ways that coincidences can't, which Atheists can't explain and can only dismiss) and perform real miracles (many of which are documented and attested to by multiple eyewitnesses). It just would not make sense.

Even if the Bible and Christian doctrine are not literally true, there does seem to be something very real behind the power of Christianity. Even as a non-Christian, I can see this. It's obvious. But we could say the same for Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and even New Age beliefs too. There seems to be something very real and transformative behind those religions as well. Most likely, they all contain kernels of truth at some level in their teachings. After all, all beliefs have some degree of truth in them, and this includes religious beliefs as well.

The problem with Christianity is that it has gotten a bad rap from fanatical literalists, and people who have done great wrong in its name (e.g. Crusades, Inquisition, Witch Trials, punishment and executions of opposers to the Church, subjugation of native tribes, etc). It has also become too institutionalized and subjected to politics, power, control and money (especially with the Catholic Church). It also makes extreme claims, such as if you accept Jesus as your Savior you will go to Heaven, but if you don't, you will go to Hell.

All of this has contributed to its highly controversial reputation. But most likely, it has deviated greatly from the original teachings of its founder, Jesus, and his early disciples. So if you remove all that, it becomes not as bad, and perhaps you can then find some truth in it.

Perhaps if we learn to look at these religions more as symbolic metaphors of truth, rather than as literal truth, they would make a lot more sense to the reasoning mind. After all, taking religion too literally results in too many logical problems that cannot be resolved.

So I think that's the best way to approach this. We should see mankind's religions as ideas which point to a higher truth, and serve as archetypes of our collective consciousness. Even Buddhism and Zen teaches that their religion is like a finger pointing at the moon. The finger is not the moon itself of course, it merely points to it.

It would make a lot more sense to look at religion this way. If we did, it would end the perpetual squabbling and debate between different religious beliefs, religion and science, theism and atheism, etc. In doing so, such dualities and dichotomies would be transcended. I think this view would be far wiser and more reasonable than grappling with literal interpretations that cannot be proven or disproven one way or another.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Jester » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:49 am

listening to this right now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORL124b3lU8

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORL124b3lU8[/youtube]

It made me think of Winston and other truthseekers here on HA

So I thought it would share it with you
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Moretorque » Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:32 pm

I missed you Jester......



I thought I missed you then I hit the link and BOOM, :cry: The BBC :lol:
Time to Hide!
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Winston » Mon May 30, 2016 11:32 am

It is true that there is no historical documentation for a historical Jesus to have existed. However, I think the balance of probability is that he did exist. Let me explain why.

Firstly, the difference between the historicity of Jesus as opposed to say, Julius Caesar, is that there are plenty of official historical Roman documents attesting to the existence of Julius Caesar. In contrast, there are no historical references about Jesus until 50 years after he supposedly died on the cross. And these historical references are spurious and suspicious too. For example, the paragraph about Jesus in Josephus' writing is sudden and interrupts the flow of the text, so that it seems out of context. And it wasn't referenced until hundreds of years later. That indicates that the passage may have been a forgery or interpolation, added in by the Catholic Church many years later.

But of course, just because no historical documents existed about Jesus doesn't mean he didn't exist either. Most people that existed throughout history were not written about by historians, but that doesn't prove that they never existed. So you can't prove either way if Jesus existed just from lack of documentation alone.

Most mainstream historians and scholars do believe that Jesus existed, but that the historical Jesus was not like the one depicted in the Christian Gospels. I think they believe that Jesus existed, despite the lack of evidence and documentation, for the following reasons:

1) They don't want to appear too radical or extreme. And claiming that a central figure of history didn't exist, is indeed a radical claim.

2) Logic says that every religious movement or cult must have a founder or originator. So that's probably true in the case of Christianity too. Some may argue that Paul was the founder of Christianity, however, it is unlikely that Paul could have founded a new religion based on someone who never existed, especially right after Jesus supposedly existed and conducted his ministry for three years. It's more likely that Paul reshaped and reformed Christianity while spreading it around, making it available for the Gentiles too, not just the Jews. He popularized it for a more mainstream audience.

3) Hoaxes usually only last for a few days or a few weeks before they are exposed and come to an end. They are not usually long-lasting. They don't last for 2000 years and become a dominant world religion. So it's unlikely for Christianity to be a total fabrication. Especially since it has changed so many lives, often for the better. Hoaxes don't have the power to change lives or perform miracles, and neither does the power of belief or placebo effect alone, without something to back it up. Believing in a hoax is a form of self-delusion, and delusions do not usually change lives for the better, at least not in the millions for two millenia.

Therefore, despite the lack of historical documentation of Jesus' existence, the balance of probability rests on the side that he did exist. So I agree with mainstream scholars on this. But whether or not the historical Jesus and the Jesus of the Gospels are the same, is another matter and can't be proven one way or another.

However, it is obvious that the Gospel writers did have an agenda and bias, which is evident from their writings, and that was to convert new people to the Christian faith. Biased people usually cherry pick their info of course. But what's suspicious is that none of the authors of the Four Gospels ever revealed who they were so that the sources could be checked. That is very auspicious and virtually makes the authors anonymous. And anonymous sources do not carry much credibility, as we all know.

Now it is true that the Romans took Christianity and subverted it for their own political purposes, as Emperor Constantine did. But that doesn't mean that the Romans totally made up Christianity - as Joseph Atwill claims in his documentary "Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus" and Acharya S (DM Murdock) claims in her book "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold". It's more likely that the Romans took a pre-existing movement and subverted it and infiltrated it, much like how the powers that be do today with movements that go against them. The Romans also mixed in elements of Roman Pagan religions as well, to create Roman Catholicism.

This guy explains it well:

http://montalk.net/notes/on-the-historicity-of-jesus

"It’s a lot easier to hijack something than to fabricate it. Instead of inventing a totally non-existent character of Jesus Christ and selling that product to the masses, it makes more sense that the authorities would consolidate already existing paradigms into a single system. The purpose of such a system would be to portray these authorities as divinely sanctioned.

Assimilated paradigms included Mithraism, Greek Neo-Platonism, and Judaism. For instance, the solar/zodiacal elements in Christianity came from Mithraism and related pagan systems. But these are just auxiliary additions, not the core nucleus of Christianity. The nucleus is the original Christian system, which existed alongside the other elements prior to their combined assimilation into an organized religion."


Hope that makes sense and gives you the big picture view of things. For more reasons on why Jesus Christ probably existed, see Bart Erhman's book, "Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth" and his interviews/lectures on YouTube:

http://www.amazon.com/Did-Jesus-Exist-Historical-Argument/dp/0062206443/
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bart+erhman

Bart Erhman's latest new book also seems interesting:

Jesus Before the Gospels: How the Earliest Christians Remembered, Changed, and Invented Their Stories of the Savior
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Before-Gospels-Christians-Remembered/dp/0062285203/
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Hero » Mon May 30, 2016 1:24 pm

Winston wrote:It is true that there is no historical documentation for a historical Jesus to have existed.

The Roman historian Flavius Josephus recorded the existence of Jesus. And he's a totally unbiased source. He was by no means a Christian, so he had no reason to lie.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Winston » Mon May 30, 2016 1:38 pm

Hero wrote:
Winston wrote:It is true that there is no historical documentation for a historical Jesus to have existed.

The Roman historian Flavius Josephus recorded the existence of Jesus. And he's a totally unbiased source. He was by no means a Christian, so he had no reason to lie.


Not true. Josephus was on the payroll of the Roman Emperor. So of course he had to write what the emperor wanted. He was their propagandist. He was also a Jew, and Jews would never say that Jesus was the Jewish messiah. That would be blasphemy. Plus the passage he wrote about Jesus was sudden and out of context. It didn't flow with the rest of the text before and after it. Also, that Josephus passage was never referenced by Christian theologians until a few hundred years later. This suggests that is was an interpolation, added in by Christians many years after Josephus lived. Finally, Josephus lived many years after Jesus did. He wasn't there at the time that Jesus was, and so if he really wrote that, he was quoting 2nd and 3rd hand hearsay about Jesus, not firsthand accounts of those who knew or met Jesus.
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Re:

Postby The_Adventurer » Mon May 30, 2016 1:58 pm

Winston wrote:However, I think it's too much of a stretch to claim that they never existed. It is way too implausible that someone who never existed and was simply "made up" could spawn a religion that endured three centuries of Roman persecution,...


Let's wait and see what people say about Batman centuries down the road...
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Hero » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:54 am

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Winston » Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:30 pm

In the podcast below, Ralph Ellis explains why Jesus is missing from the historical record. He has an unusual theory that Mr S says makes a lot of sense and explains all the anomalies about the historicity of Jesus. The theory has connections to the King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table legend too. If interested, see below.

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