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Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Winston » October 14th, 2016, 12:16 am

I've been listening more to Ralph Ellis.

He says that in the Jewish Talmud, Jesus is mentioned and blamed for the Jewish revolt of 70 AD. So he must be a historical figure if even the Talmud, which hates Jesus, mentions him. And if he was part of the Jewish revolt of 70 AD, then he must have been alive by then. Interesting.

He also said that after Emperor Nero committed suicide, Jesus and another man competed for the throne. Jesus lost and the other guy, Vesapia (sp?) won. That's why Jesus was crucified. But he was pardoned and let go on certain conditions. So he survived the crucifixion and was banished to England, known then as Britannia. The Freemasons have a similar story about Jesus that they only tell their initiates. In fact. Ellis claims that Jesus was a Freemason. That is odd because I thought the Masons began as a stone maker guild in the Middle Ages. Maybe it goes back farther than that?

Ellis also said that Jesus was Kind of Edessa, a province in Syria. But that part of history was destroyed, yet it still exists in historical texts that the Romans didn't have control over.

Wow if all this is true, it's mind blowing!

You can listen to Ralph Ellis talk about all this for nearly 3 hours here.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby pandabear » October 15th, 2016, 10:49 pm

AmericanEvil wrote:There is not one single piece of historical evidence to prove that Jesus ever existed. Not one single scholar or historian of the 1st century AD mentioned even a single word about Jesus. Kind of interesting, considering that he was supposed to have been some guy going around performing miracles, raising the dead, with 1000s of followers. VERY INTERESTING that not one single historian or scholar of that time period mentioned even a single word about him, don't you think?


There is

Galatians 1 wrote:...I went to Jerusalem to obtain information from Peter, and I stayed with him for two weeks. I did not see any other apostle except James, the Lord's brother...


This is perhaps the strongest evidence available that Jesus really existed, as a real person. In his letter to the Galatians, Paul is just mentioning casually that when he was visiting in Jerusalem he just happened to see Jesus' brother James. Paul isn't trying to make any theological points here...just stating "when I was in Jerusalem, I met Jesus' brother." There isn't any reason for Paul to fabricate anything here.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Kradmelder » October 15th, 2016, 11:29 pm

the writingsame of pontius pilate describe Jesus.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/likeness_of_our_saviour.htm

and he was not even a follower but a Roman governor.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby pandabear » October 16th, 2016, 12:32 am

Kradmelder wrote:the writingsame of pontius pilate describe Jesus.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/likeness_of_our_saviour.htm

and he was not even a follower but a Roman governor.


http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/05/the-fraudulent-letter-of-pontius-pilate.html
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Winston » October 16th, 2016, 11:01 am

Kradmelder wrote:the writingsame of pontius pilate describe Jesus.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/likeness_of_our_saviour.htm

and he was not even a follower but a Roman governor.


That cant be real. Sounds too good to be true and too pro Christian. If a letter like that really existed it would have been mentioned by historians and Christian apologists. Yet it is never mentioned or cites. If a copy of it is in the library of congress as the site claimed, then try to find a link to it on a government site.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby MrMan » October 17th, 2016, 7:54 am

Let's not forget the ossuary, the bone box, discovered several years back, which had an inscription on it that it belonged to James the son of Joseph the brother of Jesus (using their names in Hebrew/Aramaic script: Yakov, Yosef, Yeshua). It was dated to the right time period. It was unusual to put the brother's name on such an item. He would have had to have been quite a prominent brother. Statisticians figured that it was highly unlikely for there to be a Yakov whose brother was Yeshua and whose father was Yakov, based on the names they had from tombs, etc. back then. And the likely background of the box was that it may have previously been a relic of an Armenian church in the area that claimed to have the bones of St. James. Some Palestinian treasure hunter probably dumped out the bones, if they hadn't been removed already, and brought the box to a certain dealer for sale several decades back.

It was in the news several years ago. They took it to show it off in Canada soon after it was found and cracked it, write in the inscription. Talk about million mishandling of luggage on an airplane. There is no telling how much that box is worth.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby MrMan » October 17th, 2016, 7:59 am

Kradmelder wrote:the writingsame of pontius pilate describe Jesus.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/likeness_of_our_saviour.htm

and he was not even a follower but a Roman governor.


Some of these seem about as reliable as the source Winston used earlier in the thread.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Winston » October 18th, 2016, 11:10 am

Do you believe this? Here is one of ralph ellis' books about jesus true origins.

Cleopatra to Christ: Jesus: the great-grandson of Cleopatra. (King Jesus Trilogy) (Volume 1)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1508465886/

Description

New 2015 edition.

*** Jesus was the great grandson of Queen Cleopatra ***

Why was the birth of a poor ‘carpenter’ in the first century AD attended by the Magi: the Persian king-makers? Why was Jesus later known as the ‘King of the Jews’? 

Using many strands of contemporary evidence, Ralph Ellis has pieced together a historical jigsaw puzzle demonstrating that the biblical Jesus was directly descended from Cleopatra VII, the most famous queen of Egypt. But this is not all, for, in piecing this story together, it would seem that Jesus also had an aristocratic Roman and royal Persian ancestry too; and it is the latter bloodline element that explains the appearance of Persian Magi at his birth. 

Partly follows on from: "Jesus, Last of the Pharaohs". 

The King Jesus Trilogy (vol 1)
Followed by "King Jesus".

Edition v6.0
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Winston » October 18th, 2016, 11:14 am

Heres another book by ralph ellis. The implications are staggering. What do you all think?

King Jesus: From Egypt (Kam) to Camelot

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/193188286X/

Description

Review

"Priests and kings were anointed ... hence the title 'christ' or 'messiah' often signified the same as 'king'." -- Commentary on the Bible, Adam Clarke, 1832

Product Description

This book resolves the biggest secret and international conspiracy of all time - the true origins of Christianity.

On a quest to confirm that St Paul (Saul) was Josephus Flavius, Ralph Ellis has discovered and exposed many new perspectives on the life of the biblical Jesus, who was actually a king:

"The title 'christ' or 'messiah' often signified the same as 'king'." Theologian, Adam Clarke.

Contrary to orthodox perceptions, King Jesus and Queen Mary Magdalene were the richest couple in Syrio-Judaea. The Romans wanted to impose taxes on Jesus and Mary, an imposition that provoked the Jewish Rebellion.King Jesus fought and lost that war, and so he was crucified, reprieved and sent into exile in Roman England. In those remote lands, King Jesus became known as Atur-tii (the Egyptian) or 'King Arthur and the twelve disciples of the Last Supper Table'. This identification of Jesus as a wealthy, royal, warrior-hero of first century Judaea may sound bizarre, but that is what the texts say. All research and quotations are from original sources, including the New Testament, Tanakh, Talmud, Josephus, Origen, Eusebius, Irenaeus, Herodian, Suetonius, Tacitus and many others besides.

This is a secret history that has been deliberately concealed from us for two millennia - for those feet, in ancient times, did indeed walk upon England's mountains green!

The sequel to this book is "Jesus, King of Edessa", and this book will finally locate King Jesus-Izas in the historical record, and discover a 1st century statue of Jesus, and a 1st century coin of Jesus.

From the Publisher

This is the sequel to the book 'Cleopatra to Christ', which discovered that Jesus was descended from the Egyptian and Persian royal lines through Queen Cleopatra and King Phraates IV. This is why the Magi, Persian priesthood and kingmakers, came to the birth of Jesus. ... ...

The title 'King Jesus' takes this story several stages further, discovering exactly where Jesus and Mary founded their small city-state kingdom and the extent of their considerable wealth and influence.

Jesus wanted to become Emperor of Rome, just as the Talmud makes perfectly clear, and he had the finances, social influence and royal prestige to achieve this. While the Talmud and New Testament are clear that Jesus became High Priest of Jerusalem (in AD 63), he failed in his bid for emperorship and was reduced to imprisonment and penury. It was Vespasian who then became emperor (yes, in AD 70) and Jesus, the dangerous revolutionary, was sent into exile at the opposite end of the Empire - England. (The Talmud and Josephus confirm that these events occurred in the AD 60s.)
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Citizen » October 18th, 2016, 2:31 pm

Why would anyone care if Jesus existed or not?
If you are not a Jesusite then what does it matter? (I won't call the worship of Jesus, Christianity because I don't think Jesus (whether he existed or not) had anything to do with the real Christianity.)

Why not make a new religion or cult? You are charismatic and intelligent. Cult leaders seem to do pretty well with young women. Watch Conan the Barbarian, that James Earl Jones guy was definitely getting everything he wanted. Take the parts of the books you like, twist it around, tell people it came from God. Blah blah book of Mormon wait lets remove one m....ah yes the book of Moron. Idiots eat that crap up. Gotta dress wacky a moomoo or some sort of robe. Tell the people they suffer in this life so that they can benefit in the next. No suffering for the high priest. Open the church as a bank. Run it as a false jew Cabal. You know where you just live on credit and take what others created. So simple you could call it the Catholic Church...oh wait that one is taken (Instead of CatHolic maybe AlcoHolic...instead of worshiping cats torturing mice like Dynastic Egypt's Ra and Isis did you could worship alcohol and it's power to induce vomiting, no then how about workaHolic (Americans love to work) or ChocoHolic (fat lying lotus loving Isis b*tches love to eat chocolate)). Well you are smart you will think of another name. You can go ahead an make some youtube videos using all that stuff if you life. You can really attack the church and b*tches with that stuff.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby retiredfrank » October 19th, 2016, 12:49 am

Citizen wrote:
Why not make a new religion or cult?


If you go down this road, definitely read up on L Ron Hubbard. He was very clear as a young man that he was starting a new religion because that was the fast path to big money for a guy with his set of skills: writing and speaking ability, charismatic leader, no technological skills, etc. Sort of like Winston. Later on, he started to believe the religion he had created and went crazy, but he was very rational early on.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Winston » September 8th, 2017, 8:35 pm

A two hour compilation of video clips from scholars who claim that Jesus never existed. Interesting to consider.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby MrMan » September 9th, 2017, 4:26 am

She gets some of the details of Paul's life wrong, or at least mentions ideas that don't show up in the Bible that Christians don't insist happen (appeared before Caesar) when trying to debunk it.

I had a religion professor who studied at Harvard back when I was getting my undergrad degree. He said that if some scholar finds some papyrus in Egypt somewhere, lots of other scholars will treat it as an important historical document, but then they will reject very valuable evidence from the Bible. He believed I Samuel contained court records from Israel, which were unique when compared to other nations because they told of the king's failures and not just his triumphs. Scholars were biased against the Bible, which is important for historians to consider.

If we reject the existence of Jesus Christ, isn't the evidence for His existence stronger than the evidence for Julius Caesar or many other historical figures existing?
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby MrPeabody » September 9th, 2017, 6:34 am

The thing to keep in mind is that the New Testmenent is either written by Paul (his letters) or written by authors who were influenced by Paul's doctrine. And the Bible itself admits that Paul never actually met the historical Jesus. He had a vision of Jesus. So at that point he can make anything up. It would be like me saying that I had a vision of Winston talking to me in my sleep, and I then tell you what Winston said.

What I don't get, is that a lot of very smart people over a thousand years, thought the New Testament was teaching some high quality stuff worthy of sacred devotion. So, if there wasn't a "Jesus" then who came up with it?
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.

Postby Winston » September 9th, 2017, 7:14 pm

MrMan wrote:She gets some of the details of Paul's life wrong, or at least mentions ideas that don't show up in the Bible that Christians don't insist happen (appeared before Caesar) when trying to debunk it.

I had a religion professor who studied at Harvard back when I was getting my undergrad degree. He said that if some scholar finds some papyrus in Egypt somewhere, lots of other scholars will treat it as an important historical document, but then they will reject very valuable evidence from the Bible. He believed I Samuel contained court records from Israel, which were unique when compared to other nations because they told of the king's failures and not just his triumphs. Scholars were biased against the Bible, which is important for historians to consider.

If we reject the existence of Jesus Christ, isn't the evidence for His existence stronger than the evidence for Julius Caesar or many other historical figures existing?


Yes historians are biased against Christianity. But then again, authors like CS Lewis, Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel and William Lane Craig are biased in favor of Christianity and assume the Bible is all true as a given, like 2+2=4, which is illogical. It cuts both ways. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Not on either extreme.

Some facts have been verified from the Bible, such as the existence of Sodom and Gomorrah or the existence of Jericho. But that doesn't make everything in it true, especially since it is not one book, but 66 books.

No why do you say the evidence for Jesus is stronger than for Julius Caesar? On what basis? I don't understand why Christians like to claim this. Caesar was well documented and written about by historians at the time he lived. And many people met him and knew him too, including Cleopatra, Marc Anthony, Augustus Caesar (when he was a boy), his whole army, etc. In fact, Julius Caesar even wrote his own memoirs of his military campaigns in Gaul and Britannia. You can read them online or get them from Amazon.com. I downloaded a copy of his memoirs.

On the other hand, Jesus wrote nothing himself, which is very suspicious. Was he illiterate? Even if he was, he could have had some of his followers write down his teachings. Every founder of a religion or cult usually writes down their teachings and message to the world. So this undermines his historicity. Plus none of the Roman historians at the time of Jesus ever mentioned him. Jesus was only mentioned by historians well after the time he lived, such as by Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger. But none of them ever met Jesus.

Most neutral historians who are unbiased, believe that Jesus probably existed since every cult and movement has to have a founder and originator - even if Paul created modern Christianity. But that the Gospel stories are mostly legends, not historical facts as Christians want to believe. That's the consensus of unbiased historians who are neither for or against Christianity.
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