...and just because you don't believe in one of the Gods of modern religions, doesn't mean you are not spiritual.polya wrote:We aren't going to prove/disprove God here! Just because you don't go to Church doesn't mean you are not religious.
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Discuss religion and spirituality topics.
Christianity actually makes you less spiritual. The whole religion is completely FEAR BASED - fear of God, fear of not being saved, fear that you will be sent to hell for not believing, fear of punishment, etc. Fear does not make one spiritual. It lowers their energy and consciousness level, which makes you WEAKER and LESS spiritual, not more.
Did you know that most ancient religions before Christianity taught that everything was interconnected at the deepest level, and not separate? Man was seen as one with creation. Everything was interdependent. This was the ancient spiritual view. When Christianity came, it taught the opposite, that we were all separate, and that God was separate from us. He was some being "out there" to be feared and obeyed. This became very useful to the ruling elite, who helped tailor design Christianity to suit their purpose - to make people feel obligated to submit to higher authorities, such as the Catholic Church and the Pope. They twisted what Jesus said to suit their purpose of rule and control. The history documents that show how Christianity changed over time reveal this agenda.
The form of Christianity that became orthodox taught SEPARATENESS and FEAR, which was NOT spiritual. It was used for CONTROL. And thus, it was used to try to dominate and enslave other primitive cultures such as the Native Americans, African Tribes, Amazonian Tribes, etc. Do you think the Catholic Church send Missionaries to convert primitive tribes because they cared about them? Do you think they were motivated by altruism? These Missionary campaigns tried to wipe out the ancient spiritual traditions of the primitive tribes too, replacing their connection with nature with organized religion based on fear and separateness.
Check out this story of a Missionary who deconverted from Christianity after realizing that the natives were more spiritual than him, and that his beliefs were wrong.
His book info on Amazon.com:
A riveting account of the astonishing experiences and discoveries made by linguist Daniel Everett while he lived with the PirahÃ£, a small tribe of Amazonian Indians in central Brazil. Daniel Everett arrived among the PirahÃ£ with his wife and three young children hoping to convert the tribe to Christianity. Everett quickly became obsessed with their language and its cultural and linguistic implications. The PirahÃ£ have no counting system, no fixed terms for color, no concept of war, and no personal property. Everett was so impressed with their peaceful way of life that he eventually lost faith in the God he'd hoped to introduce to them, and instead devoted his life to the science of linguistics. Part passionate memoir, part scientific exploration, Everett's life-changing tale is riveting look into the nature of language, thought, and life itself.
Last edited by Winston on December 31st, 2012, 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
Other than the married guys living in the Phils and Mexico, I bet noone here goes to church other than for a family wedding or funeral.
You're right, that doesn't mean they're not religious.
Which modern religions are those? Do you think there used to be some old Golden-Age religions, way-back-when, that didn't have Gods?
And please, would someone tell me, what is the difference between "spiritual" and "religious"? Does one just sound way cooler than the other?
Or is one just for Whites? I.e., if you're Yellow and Buddhist you're "traditional' or "religious", but if you're White and Buddhist you're, well, "spiritual"?
Not trying to single you out here, everyone I know in L.A. talks exactly like this.
To me it just sounds like:
"I'm religious, but not really Christian, but I'm still a good person, I believe a few teachings of Jesus and Mohandas Gandhi and Gautama WhatHisName and the Dalai Lama and my 3rd grade teacher, whatever sounds good on a greeting card, so I want you to call me Spiritual, so I don't sound old-fashioned"
How is it more "spiritual"? Wouldn't "conveniently eclectic" be more accurate?
Or even "addled"?
And water actually makes you drier? Right. The way to know if someone is really spiritual, is that he makes extensive and repeated attacks on a faith which has led to healing disease, limiting war, ending addictions, etc. Because he is just so spiritual!
If that's so, if fear is the motivator, then Maoist Communism or Stalinist Communism should be REALLY successful, with voluntary converts all over the world. Right? And Iran, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia etc. wouldn't need the death penalty to dissuade Mohammedans from converting to Christianity. They could just point out the pesky FEAR that Christians peddle. Freed of fear, the happy Mohammedans could just stay Mohammedan. Right?
To be fair, fearfulness DOES penetrate religious groups. Pagan idol worshipers, still found all over the world, including your Taiwan, worship out of fear. And yes, so do some Christians. It's human I guess. But the motivator for most conversions is not fear, but hope. Hoping to be spiritually cleansed, to be freed of bad thoughts and actions, etc.
We agree there. So do many other things - materialism, anger, etc. So what? Fear is not a big problem in modern America. (Except in cults, inner cities, and public schools.) We have lots of other problems though.
But generally Christianity helps you deal wiith fear. You've heard it before.
"Yeah though I walk / in the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I fear no evil, for Thou art with me."
It's like having a big brother, a father, a protector, with His hands on your shoulders, Hos boldness inside you. And no, I am not afraid.
This is made-up.
The BIBLE teaches that Man lived in Eden, at one with all. And so do some other traditions. (Written other descendants of Noah, with some shared oral history). Christianity is about restoring the oneness with God that we had lost. Tearing down the veil, allowing all men to become priests of God. To have clean hearts, not just perform absolution in a Temple or with a sacrifice.
The individual, modern separation you speak of did not exist anywhere, ever, until the Enlightenment, the (literally) Luciferian movement that taught that we should all think for ourselves, ignore tradition and family, etc. This is the source of modern loneliness. Christianity is still around, but has been increasingly under siege in recent centuries. A war is on.
Well if He is not "out there", where is he, duh? He was and is "out there", of course. But since Christ came, preaching the "Good News" that the Kingdom is WITHIN you, that has changed, for Jews, for Roman-Greek cultures, and for those they have influenced. I am not surprised if this basic truth was sussed out by some other teachers in Asia, North America, wherever. But to accuse Christianity of separating Man from God is really to miss the whole point. The point of Christmas is that we were cut off, separated, and God came for us, came into or dimension, by becoming one of us schmoes, a spirit incarnate. Gave up Heaven and took on cold, hunger, gravity, pain and the rest.
You may have been involved in a fear-based, cultic congregation or denomination as a kid. I ran into one years back - they did some good for a lot of people, but with a controlling spirit. But this is not the substance of Christianity. You have to read the Gospels to find the real Jesus.
It's like seeing an Armenian priest who smokes cigarettes (all of them do!), then concluding that Armenian priests are behind Big Tobacco. Not logical. Human failings are everywhere - everywhee where there are humans. You have to see the big picture. One screwed up denomination or congregation does not mean that Jesus came to screw everyone up.
Hunh? Christianity was seen as subversive, as you damn well know. You are in parrot-mode here. You heard this somewhere, and are repeatng it. Not like you.
What is useful to a ruling elite is a state religion. Only Christians and Jews rejected required state religious worship. State religion was ordered by Romans and post-Alexander Greeks (the Hanukkah story), to enforce obedience. Zoroastrian Persians also sought to eliminate Christian worship in Armenia. The Jews also went through this in Babylon (the Book of Daniel). Daniel and his friends, who had been enslaved and castrated, still had the balls to refuse pagan worship. (the Lions, the furnace.) In all these cases, it was Christians and Jews who stood up to state religion, who stood up to Babylonian/Greek/Roman/Persian authority. So you have it totally backwards.
Just a few years ago, in gentle Thailand, a young boy was brutally caned in school for becoming a Christian, and refusing to recant. Yes, those Buddhists, so spiritual. The point is that in Thailand, Buddhism serves as a bulwark of the state and of the nation. Christianity was seen as a threat. Fear is a tool of the oppressor.
The same took place all over. Pagan Norsemen killed early Christians, for refusing to worship the tribal god, Thor.
Persecution under the Romans went on for 200 years. Rapes, gruesome tortures, etc.
In the West, ruthless men in authority have tried to control the Church since the "Babylonian Captivity of the Papacy" and the destruction of the Templars by the King of France in the 1300's. Until then, since Charlemagne in the 800's, the rulers respected the Church, and the result was progress and peace. Rulers were still deferential to Christians until the twentieth century. Since the twentieth century, with no moral restraints, genocides, revolutions, etc have taken place. The Church did not keep evil men in power, it restrained them!
The first example of this would be Martin Luther kissing the ass of German princes. Nowadays this is done by lots of Leftist Christians: Jesuit Commies, The World Council of Churches, etc. The kind of wolves-in-sheep's-clothing who support the U.N. You are talking about Christians failing to stand up for truth, and instead saying what gets them ahead, gets them praised.
So, yes, there has been a lot of subversion since the time of the Reformation. Not that the Reformers were bad people, just that when you start going your own way in spiritual matters, it's easy to lose your way and become ungrounded. Fast.
But UNTIL the Reformation, Christianity was unchanged. There were incredibly minor points of contention between East and West, but generally the Faith was monolithic and influential.
Rulers had to kiss the Church's ass, and people were better off as a result.
The Church was not an organ of the state. Think of it as a giant community organization, labor union, fraternal organization looking after its members, soup kitchens, a private schools system, old age homes, orphanages, a chain of hospitals, plus a few centers of scientific research. No soldiers, no courts (except for priests), no temporal power (except by default in Rome itself, when the Byzantines fled)
Again, it sounds like you have a background with a cult.
Did you even watch "The Mission"? The Jesuits were precisely about converting, and controlling the Guarani Indians in southern Brazil. But there motive was not at all pro-government. They wanted to strengthen the Guarani and prepare them for encroaching civilization, so they would not be oppressed or enslaved. As you can see from what I have written elsewhere, I am no fan of the Jesuits, but they certainly wanted to help the natives, and gave their lives to do so.
Similarly the Dominican and Franciscan missions up the coast from Baja to Northern California. They certainly changed the Indian's lifestyle, but the focus was on helping. In order to please you, do Catholic Mexicans have to undress, run naked, forget how to read, drink from the same pond they piss in, and wage endless war with each other?
Yes, dammit, guys dedicated their lives as missionaries because the cared about the people. Why else would they?
Maybe if the North Americans had had some of those Catholic missionaries, the Indians in North America would be i better shape today, more numerous, more prosperous, and more in control of teir own lives.
You sound like those who think people should stay home and not mess with the environment, and keep it all pristine. Do nothing, sit on your thumb, and everything will be great. Now THAT takes faith.
Lots of White men have traveled to a primitive country and gone native. How is this particular story supposed to be uplifting or inspiring? These people treat their families like shit, share their women, and basically have no pride. They lead a listless, dissolute, pointless life.
No wonder you like them.
In all honesty, Native American cultures were far better preserved under Spanish Catholics than Anglo-Saxon Protestants.
Where are the people who still speak Wampanoag compared to millions who can still speak Nahuatl, Quiche and Quechua who still maintained their identity? A native american language, Guarani, is even spoken by those of European descent in Catholic South America. Had the Southwest still been under Mexican control, there would still be millions of Native Americans living there.
Guatemala and Bolivia are predominantly Native American, for instance.
I doubt millions of Assyrians died for their pagan religion, but millions of Assyrians died for their Christian religion. Eastern Europe and parts of Africa are full of native Christians, and many of them have been persecuted by Muslims for almost over 1,000 years. Don't tell me that the Assyrians and Armenians had to suffer and watch their people being forcibly enslaved and murdered for practicing their religion. Eastern Christians in general are far more devout in their religious faith. Ever wonder why most of Eastern Europe believes in God while the rest of Europe (mainly Protestant Europe) still lacks faith in God?
I find that Protestantism itself is a corrupted form of the Christian religion, made only for the benefit of princes and kings such as Henry IV, propped up by asslickers such as John Calvin and Martin Luther.
I honestly am kind of mixed. I dislike most the churches in my area that I have visited. I dislike all the social backscratching, all the whos whos games, all the control by the pastor, and just the overall focus on "authority". That is why I am looking into Quakerism. The religion seems to be more anti-authoritarian, tends to actually focus on the issues of the day, and seem to be more democratic. Plus throughout history it seems like they have stood for what is right, whether it be environmentalism or black rights.
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Jesus christ doesn't believe in "religion"
Jesus christ isn't just love, hippies made that up so they wouldn't have to condemn anyone or cause trouble for themselves when "shearing" a false cultist religion based on true christianity.
Jesus HATES and LOVES equally.
If you are a true christian you will NOT be happy, you will have challenge and turmoil, and will suffer for what you believe in.
The word christian should no longer be associated with the bible, as christianity as it exists in america and most places in the world is a lie, and not even a fraction of what it claims to be.
If someone is christian and you would have no clue other than the fact he or she told you, they are probably not a christian.
Jesus will throw you in hell, it's in the words, read them, that's the wrath and hate part.
Jesus isn't a spiritual santa clause with a white sack of fluffy prayer orders shipped vie ups ready to hand them out because you were a good little boy or girl and went to church to listen to some fat pastor who's a mini-cult leading sheep elected by all the other sheep through a popularity contest.
Like any other thing in life, morality is a discipline, meaning self control, if you ever see a true christian, you'll notice it.
The reason most people don't know these things is because you can't sell something that causes people pain.
I don't mind people saying "to hell" with you and jesus, that's fine, go for it, burn down the churches, just don't go trying to proclaim some higher moral authority by saying mine is false, because at the end of the day, I guarantee my honor integrity and morality far more genuine in intent than your desire and motivation behind tearing it down and trying to prove it's "outdated" "mind controlling" or some kind "mind control"
Most peoples rhetoric these days is nothing more than a feeble attempt at defending the facades that make up a lawless liberal self worshiping pointless life, that seeks only to attempt to justify it's own existence, but will in the end fail to due so by its own hand, because if everything isn't pointless and I"m not a monkey, how will I ever make my lazy fat selfish life seem like a positive.
Alright, my rant gauge is empty now, I think I can move on for the time being.
I have often encountered older intellectual men who refuse to follow God, bitter at Him becasue He allows evil. A lot of Armenians like this, because they grew up with detailed knowledge of what befell their families under the Turks. Christian in culture but bitter inside.
What you state above is pretty much what I try to get across to them. God does punish.
And that is quite comforting sometimes.
yes as the pope said turks were the punishment for the christians. but in my world the turks, arabs punished the weak. the world is mildly fascist and the early christians were to nice so nature in the form of the turks punished them. - then some of them learned an began to kick some other ass. - no reason to take it personal yakuza. the christians didnÂ´t start the fire. it was a necessity to make christianity brutal so they can survive and attack is the best defense, they say. - respect the white men.
yes and the mongols did start the fire because they were hungry.
This is the challenge - to be very forceful, but with love in one's heart. Manhood.