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Mere Coincidence... or Divine Retribution?

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Postby ladislav » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:13 am

I say mere coincidence. More people who praise Jesus get shot than those who berate him. Although it is not ruled out that a lot of people wished him ill after that saying and possibly directed bad energy towards him, Not provable, not proven, though.

Many Christians created a lot of havoc in the name of Jesus causing death of countless innocent people. Whether they went to hell after death is debatable. The NDE and OOB are not provable. I wish they were, but they are not.

And as much as I want to believe in karma, I see people like Mugabe or Amin- the first in good health, the second died a peaceful death in Saudi Arabia, as well as numerous horrible warmongers who live in good houses and whose families are just fine. They die very old. Where they go, no one knows. No proof exists. Just NDE of others? Which may just be hallucinations in the timeless zone where they went.

Saints tortured to death went to heaven? Again, no solid proof of that.
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Postby gsjackson » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:58 am

Oh, there's punishment alright, but I think the punishing agent is ourselves. An example:

A friend of mine died in January after suffering for 12 years from Parkinson's Disease, gradually wasting away and losing all control -- an enormous tragedy to everyone who knew him. In better days he was the best all-around athlete I've ever known, and that's saying something. A prince of a guy in most circumstances, but wound tight as you could ever imagine in athletic competition. Hated losing with all his heart.

He used to play handball regularly against the second best player in the country at the time. I'm sure it drove him crazy to lose to this guy, who didn't have as good natural tools, wasn't nearly as well conditioned, and was a bit of an asshole. But he played the game like a textbook, and mastered some shots and a defensive game that my friend never took the trouble to.

The last time they played my friend ran him over going for the ball, just took him out, injuring his back, to the extent that he felt he was never quite the same again. He thinks it was done on purpose, and never played my friend again. My friend was pretty much oblivious to such things on the court. If he was ever asked about the incident, he probably just said that he lost control in the heat of battle.

Now here's my hypothesis. This incident, which his conscious mind buried, surely did not escape the attention of his subconscious mind and his strong Catholic conscience. I can imagine that conscience saying: "You say you were out of control. Well, I'll give you out of control. Deal with Parkinson's Disease."

Why would he in essence give himself capital punishment for this offense, taking away everything? He was a sportsman. That was his essence, his code of conduct. What's the worst offense a sportsman can commit? Hurting your opponent because he is better. And as in the novel A Separate Peace, it's possible you don't even really know if you deliberately hurt someone because he was better, but the question will dominate your mental life nonetheless.

I'm just speculating, of course. But these sorts of surmises of self-inflicted punishment for ones most profound weakness seem to fit in a lot of cases.
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Postby Mr_Truth » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:43 am

Interesting that you cite Parkinson's Disease as an example. Michael J. Fox is a Hollywood celebrity who got PD, probably due to divine retribution.

God may have punished Fox because he made a movie about time travel, specifically "Back to the Future II." That's the one where Fox's character goes to the future using a car which might actually be a demonic device. According to some Catholics, only God can permit time travel, since He is above time.

So because Michael J. Fox starred in a movie where he goes into the future (when he would become an old man), God afflicted him with the disease of an old man -- one usually gets Parkinson's at an old age, but Fox got it at age 29, right after BTTF II came out.
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Postby Mr_Truth » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:42 am

ladislav wrote:I say mere coincidence. More people who praise Jesus get shot than those who berate him. Although it is not ruled out that a lot of people wished him ill after that saying and possibly directed bad energy towards him, Not provable, not proven, though.

Many Christians created a lot of havoc in the name of Jesus causing death of countless innocent people. Whether they went to hell after death is debatable. The NDE and OOB are not provable. I wish they were, but they are not.

And as much as I want to believe in karma, I see people like Mugabe or Amin- the first in good health, the second died a peaceful death in Saudi Arabia, as well as numerous horrible warmongers who live in good houses and whose families are just fine. They die very old. Where they go, no one knows. No proof exists. Just NDE of others? Which may just be hallucinations in the timeless zone where they went.

Saints tortured to death went to heaven? Again, no solid proof of that.


So since D/R is not provable, the supernatural doesn't exist? A very materialist and worldly view of things. Rather desolate, if you ask me. Not to mention an easy justification for not worrying about consequences.

Of course the NED and OBE people can't prove their stories. But they are too numerous and they all recount the same thing. They are not being deceitful. Can you confidently say that heaven and hell don't exist, and that souls - depending on their conduct on earth - don't go to either? I didn't think so.

You can talk all you want about Christians who didn't act with good will. According to Catholicism, many Christians go to hell due to heresy and sin. At the same time, many Christians civilized and saved countless lives and souls. Quit your anti-Christ/anti-Christian attacks.

Again, not all evil people are caught and punished. But the fact that we can't prove materially that they go somewhere after death doesn't mean that no afterlife exists either, nor does it mean that we can get away with evil acts, if only we're clever enough. You are exploiting doubt and lack of scientific evidence solely to push a very materialist, worldly line.
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Postby ladislav » Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:10 am

So since D/R is not provable, the supernatural doesn't exist? A very materialist and worldly view of things. Rather desolate, if you ask me. Not to mention an easy justification for not worrying about consequences.


Just stating what any reasonable analytical person would conclude.

Of course the NED and OBE people can't prove their stories. But they are too numerous and they all recount the same thing. They are not being deceitful.


The tunnel, yes, but seeing dictators suffer? Please show me where they all see those.

Can you confidently say that heaven and hell don't exist, and that souls - depending on their conduct on earth - don't go to either? I didn't think so.


No I cannot. Can you confidently say that on some distant planet a Mickey Mouse does not exist?

You can talk all you want about Christians who didn't act with good will.


This is an understatement. We are talking murdering innocent people. In huge numbers.

According to Catholicism, many Christians go to hell due to heresy and sin. At the same time, many Christians civilized and saved countless lives and souls.


By force mostly. They were rarely invited.

Quit your anti-Christ/anti-Christian attacks.


What attacks? Just seeking the truth. This is a board open to free debates.

Again, not all evil people are caught and punished. But the fact that we can't prove materially that they go somewhere after death doesn't mean that no afterlife exists either, nor does it mean that we can get away with evil acts, if only we're clever enough.

It may or it may not. Religions do teach that there is divine retribution but again who has seen it> Intelligent people need observable facts.

You are exploiting doubt and lack of scientific evidence solely to push a very materialist, worldly line.


Not pushing anything. Just wanting more than belief- proof.
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Postby Outsider » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:20 pm

Mr_Truth wrote:Interesting that you cite Parkinson's Disease as an example. Michael J. Fox is a Hollywood celebrity who got PD, probably due to divine retribution.

God may have punished Fox because he made a movie about time travel, specifically "Back to the Future II." That's the one where Fox's character goes to the future using a car which might actually be a demonic device. According to some Catholics, only God can permit time travel, since He is above time.

So because Michael J. Fox starred in a movie where he goes into the future (when he would become an old man), God afflicted him with the disease of an old man -- one usually gets Parkinson's at an old age, but Fox got it at age 29, right after BTTF II came out.



Poe's Law states:[1]

“â€￾Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing.

It is an observation that it's difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish between parodies of religious or other fundamentalism and its genuine proponents, since they both seem equally insane. For example, some conservatives consider noted homophobe Fred Phelps to be so over-the-top that they argue he's a "deep cover liberal" trying to discredit more mainstream homophobes. ...


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law
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Postby C.J. » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:30 pm

The Cosmic Play. Everyone has a role. Even evil dirty bastards like Henry Kissinger.
If you're looking for a classic struggle, you'll be very disappointed. There's no room for good people anymore.

There's divine retribution for very few people(a couple stars recently). And most likely, you won't know who got it anyway.
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Postby Winston » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:46 pm

Ladislav,
How do you know that there's no proof for NDE's or OBE's? Have you read the best books on the subject? If not, I can recommend some. Have you studied the work of Dr. Ian Stevenson on reincarnation? There are many documented cases of reincarnation that are compelling and have no other explanation.

One should not say that there's no proof or evidence for something unless one has read the best books on the subject too. I hate it when people say that there's no proof for something and have never read the best books on the subject.

Mr. Truth,
Yeah it's closed minded for materialists to dismiss God or Satan or the afterlife offhand. But it's fanatical and religious for you to declare that the Christian religion or the Bible is all true and all authority without basis too. Just because Christians or a holy book says something doesn't make it true or the highest authority. Only brainwashing makes you think that.
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Postby HouseMD » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:42 pm

Outsider wrote:
Mr_Truth wrote:Interesting that you cite Parkinson's Disease as an example. Michael J. Fox is a Hollywood celebrity who got PD, probably due to divine retribution.

God may have punished Fox because he made a movie about time travel, specifically "Back to the Future II." That's the one where Fox's character goes to the future using a car which might actually be a demonic device. According to some Catholics, only God can permit time travel, since He is above time.

So because Michael J. Fox starred in a movie where he goes into the future (when he would become an old man), God afflicted him with the disease of an old man -- one usually gets Parkinson's at an old age, but Fox got it at age 29, right after BTTF II came out.


Poe's Law states:[1]

“â€￾Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing.

It is an observation that it's difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish between parodies of religious or other fundamentalism and its genuine proponents, since they both seem equally insane. For example, some conservatives consider noted homophobe Fred Phelps to be so over-the-top that they argue he's a "deep cover liberal" trying to discredit more mainstream homophobes. ...


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law

LOL, I read your post before the original, and actually was like, "wtf, they actually believe this stuff?!" Ah, Poe's Law...

Look, I know you're all about this Christ thing and all Mr. Truth, but you've contradicted the doctrine of divine grace in your post. Per almost all Christian denominations, no man is saved by deeds, but by the grace of Jesus alone. Accept him into your heart etc you know the deal, and you go to heaven, with a few exceptions involving heresy.

And never use the "but how can you know for sure" argument. To anyone with sound reasoning skills, it results in nothing but facepalms and groaning. The absence of evidence neither implies the truth nor the plausibility of an argument. Negative proof is the worst sort of proof a person can present.

And about the NDE thing... I've got mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I know you can recreate the results of an NDE with DMT. On the other hand, I did some training at Hartford Hospital in college, where there was a doctor that had been really interested in NDE research that had cataloged some compelling cases.

In any case, NDEs tend to be somewhat different depending on the religion of the person experiencing them. Notably, only christians seem to report negative NDEs, and then only rarely. If people of all other religions are so clearly going to hell, why do they experience peaceful, warm feelings? Why do they never experience the fire and brimstone, angels, and Christ that some christians report?
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Postby Outsider » Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:08 pm

I did some training at Hartford Hospital in college, where there was a doctor that had been really interested in NDE research that had cataloged some compelling cases.


There are some compelling cases involving reincarnation too, especially in young children having knowledge they shouldn't have. One specific case I remember reading about was of a child that was a WW2 pilot. He knew that Corsairs (fighter) had a tendency to have tire blowouts when landing on carriers. He died after being hit by AAA on his engine. This was all verified by squadron mates that were still alive at the time. If you want specifics, I can dig it up. It's a well-known case.

It seems that past a certain age, we tend to forget those memories.
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Postby Mr_Truth » Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:41 am

Look, I know you're all about this Christ thing and all Mr. Truth, but you've contradicted the doctrine of divine grace in your post. Per almost all Christian denominations, no man is saved by deeds, but by the grace of Jesus alone. Accept him into your heart etc you know the deal, and you go to heaven, with a few exceptions involving heresy.


You have it a$$-backwards: man is saved not by grace alone, but by deeds as well. Yours is the Protestant version of salvation, which is incorrect.

And never use the "but how can you know for sure" argument. To anyone with sound reasoning skills, it results in nothing but facepalms and groaning. The absence of evidence neither implies the truth nor the plausibility of an argument. Negative proof is the worst sort of proof a person can present.


re: bolded text. That cuts both ways. The same could be said for those who dispute the divine retribution/Christian argument. It eventually comes down to a question of what you want to believe.


In any case, NDEs tend to be somewhat different depending on the religion of the person experiencing them. Notably, only christians seem to report negative NDEs, and then only rarely. If people of all other religions are so clearly going to hell, why do they experience peaceful, warm feelings? Why do they never experience the fire and brimstone, angels, and Christ that some christians report?


There are numerous examples of Muslims who had NDE and saw Jesus, then converted to Christianity. Google "Muslims and NDE."
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The Bee Gees: divine retribution?

Postby Mr_Truth » Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:49 am

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... uld-684090

Bee Gees cancer pain could be 'karmic price' of fame, says Robin Gibb
10 Mar 2012 11:20
Bee Gees star Robin Gibb believes his battle with cancer and the death of two of his brothers could be a form of payback for the global fame and fortune his family has enjoyed.

Bee Gees star Robin Gibb believes his battle with cancer and the death of two of his brothers could be a form of payback for the global fame and fortune his family has enjoyed.

The singer, 69, said he could be paying a "karmic price" for the success of the hit group after being diagnosed with colon and liver cancer.

His twin brother Maurice died of exactly the same disease in 2003, while his younger sibling Andy, who was also a pop star, died in 1988 at he age of 30.

Speaking to The Sun he said: "I sometimes wonder if all the tragedies my family has suffered, like Andy and Maurice dying so young and everything that's happened to me recently, is a kind of karmic price we are paying for all the fame and fortune we've had.


"But we've worked hard for everything we've achieved."

The Stayin' Alive star, who is currently in remission after collapsing with the illness in 2010, insisted he has never been at "death's door" but said the disease had convinced him to make the most of the time he has left.

"The illness, and the untimely death of my brothers, has made me conscious of the fact that - rather than just think about it - it's crucial that you do today what you want to do," he said

"I've got a sense of urgency about life, rather than withdrawing from it and feeling depressed.

"Now I know how precious time is, and that you can't put it in the bank. So I intend to make the most of every single second of it that I've got left."

Gibb, who is currently completing a course of chemotherapy, has teamed-up with son Robin-John to compose a Titanic-inspired classical album which will be released later this month.

The Bee Gees, made up of Robin and brothers Maurice and Barry, sold more than 200million records after shooting to fame in the 1960s.

They spent part of their childhood in Chorlton, Manchester, before their family emigrated to Australia.
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Michael Douglas: Divine retribution?

Postby Mr_Truth » Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:52 am

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/entertain ... 6641748360

Michael Douglas says getting cancer was 'karmic revenge' for his success
DANIEL BATES DAILY MAIL MAY 14, 2013 8:57AM
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Michael Douglas and wife Catherine Zeta-Jones. Picture: Rex Features / Splash News Source: news.com.au

Michael Douglas on the cover of New York magazine. The actor plays flamboyant pianist Liberace in a new movie opposite Matt Damon. Picture: Splash News Source: news.com.au
MICHAEL Douglas believes that throat cancer was "karmic retribution" for his successful career.

The actor said "things had been going good for me for a long time", and he thought being diagnosed with the disease three years ago was meant to balance it out.

The 68-year-old added that beating cancer had given him a "new rejuvenation".

Douglas, who has won four Golden Globes and two Oscars over his 40-year career, said he now knows "what it is like to be down".

He also spoke about how hard it was to see friends, including Dallas star Larry Hagman, succumb to the same kind of cancer.

The actor said: "That's life. Things had been going good for me for a long time. I was ready for some karmic retribution." But he said beating the disease had in fact led to a renewed interest from producers.

Douglas, who drank and smoked heavily for years, said: "In the past, on purpose, I've never known what movie I'm going to do next. I never knew how I would feel when I finished a picture. Now it feels great to be back at work.

"Maybe that's the benefit of taking a break with cancer: Then, people say: "What happened to him? Please come back",'

Douglas said the intensive course of radiotherapy and chemotherapy left him so weak that he spent much of the time on the sofa, watching sports and TV shows - in particular anything where he "didn't know the ending". All he could eat was soup, and he lost 21kg.

In the interview with New York magazine, the Wall Street star revealed his cancer was missed by two specialists before he went to a friend's doctor in Montreal.

The doctor looked at the back of his throat and immediately said: "We need a biopsy."

Douglas, the son of actor Kirk, is married to Catherine Zeta-Jones, 43. Soon after Douglas's cancer battle it emerged that the actress suffered from bipolar disorder, and last month she was again admitted to a clinic for treatment.

The couple have two children together, Carys, ten, and Dylan, 12. Douglas also has a 34-year-old son, Cameron. He is serving a jail sentence for drug offenses.
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Lara Logan: receiver of divine retribution

Postby Mr_Truth » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:55 pm

Lara Logan is a correspondent for '60 Minutes'. She has all the 'right' attributes that makes her successful in America: female, white, relatively young, beautiful, ambitious, career-driven, and smart.

Image

She was recently suspended (actually fired) by CBS for a flawed segment she did on the Benghazi attack on the US Embassy:

http://variety.com/2013/tv/news/lara-lo ... 200887463/

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainmen ... -1.1529671

I believe God punished Lara Logan, and set her as a public example. Sometimes, He will do that to certain famous people.

Logan was the journalist who was sexually assaulted by a crowd of savage Arab heathens a few years ago, when she was reporting in Egypt. God allowed that to happen because she was vain, and ambitious.

When she was reporting in Afghanistan, she used her sexuality to frustrate and demoralize UK male soldiers there. She thus committed the grave sin of immodesty:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 149727.ece

http://www.discussanything.com/forums/s ... ty-TV-girl

During this time, she seduced a married man who had children (Logan was a married woman herself), and later married him. She thus committed the mortal sin of adultery:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/2 ... 09271.html

Lara Logan's sexual assault and recent dismissal did not happen randomly. Her proud, and mortally sinful behavior displeased God, and so He punished her twice, in very public ways. She was thus the receiver of divine retribution.
Last edited by Mr_Truth on Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dutch Prince: receiver of divine retribution

Postby Mr_Truth » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:42 pm

Prince Friso was a member of the Dutch Royal Family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Friso_of_Orange-Nassau

Image

In February 2012, he was buried in an avalanche while skiiing, and suffered brain damage as a result. He never regained consciousness, and died in August 2013.

Back in 2004, he married a Dutch woman named Mabel Wisse Smit, a commoner. Like most ambitous western women, Wisse-Smit lacked morals. She had an affair with a married Bosnian ambassador that lasted several years. She also had a sexual relationship with a Dutch drug lord back in the 1980s.

The latter relationship was particularly troubling to the Dutch government. The parliament refused to grant its approval to the marriage, and so the Prince was no longer in line of succession for the throne.

Prince Friso was well aware of her past, but chose to marry her anyway. By marrying this harlot, the prince had dishonored and corrupted the royal family, and his country. He thus received divine retribution.

Footnote: The Bosnian ambassador was later arrested in the US for financial embezzlement and served time in prison, his career ruined:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamed_Sacirbey

The Dutch drug lord was murdered in 1991:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaas_Brui ... ug_lord%29
Last edited by Mr_Truth on Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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