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Discuss religion and spirituality topics.
I say mere coincidence. More people who praise Jesus get shot than those who berate him. Although it is not ruled out that a lot of people wished him ill after that saying and possibly directed bad energy towards him, Not provable, not proven, though.
Many Christians created a lot of havoc in the name of Jesus causing death of countless innocent people. Whether they went to hell after death is debatable. The NDE and OOB are not provable. I wish they were, but they are not.
And as much as I want to believe in karma, I see people like Mugabe or Amin- the first in good health, the second died a peaceful death in Saudi Arabia, as well as numerous horrible warmongers who live in good houses and whose families are just fine. They die very old. Where they go, no one knows. No proof exists. Just NDE of others? Which may just be hallucinations in the timeless zone where they went.
Saints tortured to death went to heaven? Again, no solid proof of that.
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!
Oh, there's punishment alright, but I think the punishing agent is ourselves. An example:
A friend of mine died in January after suffering for 12 years from Parkinson's Disease, gradually wasting away and losing all control -- an enormous tragedy to everyone who knew him. In better days he was the best all-around athlete I've ever known, and that's saying something. A prince of a guy in most circumstances, but wound tight as you could ever imagine in athletic competition. Hated losing with all his heart.
He used to play handball regularly against the second best player in the country at the time. I'm sure it drove him crazy to lose to this guy, who didn't have as good natural tools, wasn't nearly as well conditioned, and was a bit of an asshole. But he played the game like a textbook, and mastered some shots and a defensive game that my friend never took the trouble to.
The last time they played my friend ran him over going for the ball, just took him out, injuring his back, to the extent that he felt he was never quite the same again. He thinks it was done on purpose, and never played my friend again. My friend was pretty much oblivious to such things on the court. If he was ever asked about the incident, he probably just said that he lost control in the heat of battle.
Now here's my hypothesis. This incident, which his conscious mind buried, surely did not escape the attention of his subconscious mind and his strong Catholic conscience. I can imagine that conscience saying: "You say you were out of control. Well, I'll give you out of control. Deal with Parkinson's Disease."
Why would he in essence give himself capital punishment for this offense, taking away everything? He was a sportsman. That was his essence, his code of conduct. What's the worst offense a sportsman can commit? Hurting your opponent because he is better. And as in the novel A Separate Peace, it's possible you don't even really know if you deliberately hurt someone because he was better, but the question will dominate your mental life nonetheless.
I'm just speculating, of course. But these sorts of surmises of self-inflicted punishment for ones most profound weakness seem to fit in a lot of cases.
Interesting that you cite Parkinson's Disease as an example. Michael J. Fox is a Hollywood celebrity who got PD, probably due to divine retribution.
God may have punished Fox because he made a movie about time travel, specifically "Back to the Future II." That's the one where Fox's character goes to the future using a car which might actually be a demonic device. According to some Catholics, only God can permit time travel, since He is above time.
So because Michael J. Fox starred in a movie where he goes into the future (when he would become an old man), God afflicted him with the disease of an old man -- one usually gets Parkinson's at an old age, but Fox got it at age 29, right after BTTF II came out.
So since D/R is not provable, the supernatural doesn't exist? A very materialist and worldly view of things. Rather desolate, if you ask me. Not to mention an easy justification for not worrying about consequences.
Of course the NED and OBE people can't prove their stories. But they are too numerous and they all recount the same thing. They are not being deceitful. Can you confidently say that heaven and hell don't exist, and that souls - depending on their conduct on earth - don't go to either? I didn't think so.
You can talk all you want about Christians who didn't act with good will. According to Catholicism, many Christians go to hell due to heresy and sin. At the same time, many Christians civilized and saved countless lives and souls. Quit your anti-Christ/anti-Christian attacks.
Again, not all evil people are caught and punished. But the fact that we can't prove materially that they go somewhere after death doesn't mean that no afterlife exists either, nor does it mean that we can get away with evil acts, if only we're clever enough. You are exploiting doubt and lack of scientific evidence solely to push a very materialist, worldly line.
Just stating what any reasonable analytical person would conclude.
The tunnel, yes, but seeing dictators suffer? Please show me where they all see those.
No I cannot. Can you confidently say that on some distant planet a Mickey Mouse does not exist?
This is an understatement. We are talking murdering innocent people. In huge numbers.
By force mostly. They were rarely invited.
What attacks? Just seeking the truth. This is a board open to free debates.
It may or it may not. Religions do teach that there is divine retribution but again who has seen it> Intelligent people need observable facts.
Not pushing anything. Just wanting more than belief- proof.
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!
The Cosmic Play. Everyone has a role. Even evil dirty bastards like Henry Kissinger.
If you're looking for a classic struggle, you'll be very disappointed. There's no room for good people anymore.
There's divine retribution for very few people(a couple stars recently). And most likely, you won't know who got it anyway.
How do you know that there's no proof for NDE's or OBE's? Have you read the best books on the subject? If not, I can recommend some. Have you studied the work of Dr. Ian Stevenson on reincarnation? There are many documented cases of reincarnation that are compelling and have no other explanation.
One should not say that there's no proof or evidence for something unless one has read the best books on the subject too. I hate it when people say that there's no proof for something and have never read the best books on the subject.
Yeah it's closed minded for materialists to dismiss God or Satan or the afterlife offhand. But it's fanatical and religious for you to declare that the Christian religion or the Bible is all true and all authority without basis too. Just because Christians or a holy book says something doesn't make it true or the highest authority. Only brainwashing makes you think that.
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
There are some compelling cases involving reincarnation too, especially in young children having knowledge they shouldn't have. One specific case I remember reading about was of a child that was a WW2 pilot. He knew that Corsairs (fighter) had a tendency to have tire blowouts when landing on carriers. He died after being hit by AAA on his engine. This was all verified by squadron mates that were still alive at the time. If you want specifics, I can dig it up. It's a well-known case.
It seems that past a certain age, we tend to forget those memories.
You have it a$$-backwards: man is saved not by grace alone, but by deeds as well. Yours is the Protestant version of salvation, which is incorrect.
re: bolded text. That cuts both ways. The same could be said for those who dispute the divine retribution/Christian argument. It eventually comes down to a question of what you want to believe.
There are numerous examples of Muslims who had NDE and saw Jesus, then converted to Christianity. Google "Muslims and NDE."
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... uld-684090
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/entertain ... 6641748360
Lara Logan is a correspondent for '60 Minutes'. She has all the 'right' attributes that makes her successful in America: female, white, relatively young, beautiful, ambitious, career-driven, and smart.
She was recently suspended (actually fired) by CBS for a flawed segment she did on the Benghazi attack on the US Embassy:
http://variety.com/2013/tv/news/lara-lo ... 200887463/
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainmen ... -1.1529671
I believe God punished Lara Logan, and set her as a public example. Sometimes, He will do that to certain famous people.
Logan was the journalist who was sexually assaulted by a crowd of savage Arab heathens a few years ago, when she was reporting in Egypt. God allowed that to happen because she was vain, and ambitious.
When she was reporting in Afghanistan, she used her sexuality to frustrate and demoralize UK male soldiers there. She thus committed the grave sin of immodesty:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 149727.ece
http://www.discussanything.com/forums/s ... ty-TV-girl
During this time, she seduced a married man who had children (Logan was a married woman herself), and later married him. She thus committed the mortal sin of adultery:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/2 ... 09271.html
Lara Logan's sexual assault and recent dismissal did not happen randomly. Her proud, and mortally sinful behavior displeased God, and so He punished her twice, in very public ways. She was thus the receiver of divine retribution.
Last edited by Mr_Truth on December 5th, 2013, 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Prince Friso was a member of the Dutch Royal Family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Fri ... nge-Nassau
In February 2012, he was buried in an avalanche while skiiing, and suffered brain damage as a result. He never regained consciousness, and died in August 2013.
Back in 2004, he married a Dutch woman named Mabel Wisse Smit, a commoner. Like most ambitous western women, Wisse-Smit lacked morals. She had an affair with a married Bosnian ambassador that lasted several years. She also had a sexual relationship with a Dutch drug lord back in the 1980s.
The latter relationship was particularly troubling to the Dutch government. The parliament refused to grant its approval to the marriage, and so the Prince was no longer in line of succession for the throne.
Prince Friso was well aware of her past, but chose to marry her anyway. By marrying this harlot, the prince had dishonored and corrupted the royal family, and his country. He thus received divine retribution.
Footnote: The Bosnian ambassador was later arrested in the US for financial embezzlement and served time in prison, his career ruined:
The Dutch drug lord was murdered in 1991:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaas_Brui ... ug_lord%29
Last edited by Mr_Truth on December 5th, 2013, 4:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.